Inability to learn our native language

LordSutch · 04-10-2017 11:12AM

Del2005 wrote: »

The English might have tried to wipe it out but our education system killed it. How they have "thought" Irish since the foundation of the State has led to a nation that can't speak its own language after 12 years of school. Whereas in nearly every other country the children are talking multiple languages, which usually aren't native.

I presume you mean "taught". Not sure the English ever tried to wipe it out either, rather like English slowly became the language of Irish commerce and the working class, with many aspiring to a language 'upgrade' by means of communication skills, and to move with the times, leaving the old Irish language to slowly die out .........

Until the 1930s, when it was decided that we'd all start speaking Irish again

SORTED.

munsterlegend · 04-10-2017 11:25AM

LordSutch wrote: »

I presume you mean "taught". Not sure the English ever tried to wipe it out either, rather like English slowly became the language of Irish commerce and the working class, with many aspiring to a language 'upgrade' by means of communication skills, and to move with the times, leaving the old Irish language to slowly die out .........

Until the 1930s, when it was decided that we'd all start speaking Irish again

SORTED.

It's a pity you weren't taught Irish history. The British or English as you call them didn't try to wipe out the Irish language in
the 19th century? Interesting revisionism but hardly surprising.

As for how Irish is taught, in the past it was far from ideal but today education methods have improved considerably. It is now introduced to children in a fun way and I have seen many young relatives well able to speak Irish.

Larbre34 · 04-10-2017 11:26AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh... yes it did and repeatedly. What happened to the many native languages that had flourished in areas of Europe before the Roman Empire rolled in? What happened to Pictish in Scotland after Irish missionaries and traders rolled in? They all went extinct. Hell Irish itself replaced the original language(s) of Ireland on the back of the Celtic influence/invasion. It happened and continues to happen all the time. It's pretty much how languages go extinct.

Again we're seeing blame/reasons being viewed through the simplistic prism of "T'was the Brits".

Fine, leave the Brits out of it, lets just say it happened. As comparison to those you mention in ancient times, its not really valid, Irish is the only one of its type that is engaged in a battle for relevance in modern times.

LordSutch · 04-10-2017 11:37AM

munsterlegend wrote: »

It's a pity you weren't taught Irish history. The British or English as you call them didn't try to wipe out the Irish language in
the 19th century? Interesting revisionism but hardly surprising.

As for how Irish is taught, in the past it was far from ideal but today education methods have improved considerably. It is now introduced to children in a fun way and I have seen many young relatives well able to speak Irish.

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true in isolation, re its long slow demise due to the language of commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

munsterlegend · 04-10-2017 11:44AM

LordSutch wrote: »

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true in isolation, re its long slow demise due to the language of commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

I have known plenty Eastern European children who have come to this country and their parents have little or no English yet it hasn't stopped them learning English. Also most parents have forgotten irish due to lack of use but it comes back when a child is also learning it.

Yes commerce played a past but the subjugation of Irish culture by law under British rule certainly stopped Irish being spoken on a parity with English in this country. However now there is no reason why young people can't learn both what with the education facilities available.

JimmyMcGill · 04-10-2017 11:47AM

LordSutch wrote: »

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true re its long slow demise due to commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

I'd have been one of those dads who would have had Peig beatin into me and hated the irish language ever since LC days. Ever since my daughter has started to come home with her cupla focal it has definitely rejuvenated and piqued my interest for the language.
I'd imagine a lot of parents would feel the same way even though previously they could have been dead against any irish language use previously.
I used even snort at the waste of money making signposts in dual languages... From my travels down the years and seeing how proud other countries are of their own individual languages id say get rid of the english on signposts now.

Ten years ago I'd have scoffed at the idea, not any more. That's down to a little bit more faith in how irish is being rehashed and rekindled by new teaching methods. It's brilliant to see imo.

Wibbs · 04-10-2017 12:48PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

As comparison to those you mention in ancient times, its not really valid, Irish is the only one of its type that is engaged in a battle for relevance in modern times.

Of course it's valid. That's how language shifts happen and have always happened. The moment they stop being the language of trade, education, science, religion etc(even rebellion) they start to fade away and another more useful language takes their place. This was happening in Irish from the 1700's. Today the only utility for the language is as cultural window dressing, or speaking with other language users, who already speak another language with more facility and with a wider vocabulary.

Now this will keep the language alive in a small percentage of the population and that's great. I mean Latin survived at least in the written word because it was the language of the church and because of that the educated classes and science for so long.

However the idea of bringing Irish back as the main spoken language of Ireland is a long busted pipe dream. And one we need to acknowledge. By all means invest in those who want to speak it, but it's pissing good money after bad investing in the rest who clearly don't.

Oh and in before "what about Hebrew?". The Jewish diaspora that poured into the newly formed state of Israel from the 40's onwards came from all points of the globe and spoke a babel of languages. They needed a common tongue a lingua franca. The Zionist movement from well before then recognised this as a problem and other existing languages had been suggested. English was one in the running, as ironically was German. In the end they revived and updated a modern version of Hebrew as their common tongue. This is not the situation in Ireland. We already have a common tongue. As indeed do the millions of the Irish diaspora, who outside of small enclaves in South America also speak the same common tongue.

SusieBlue · 04-10-2017 01:08PM

I went to a gaelscoil and am fluent so would be in support of the language. However I totally agree that how its taught in English speaking schools is appalling.

My god daughter goes to a Gaelscoil, she's 9 now. The way they teach it is how they should all learn. In junior infants, the kids will speak mostly English and the teacher speaks only Irish. The children won't have the capacity to reply to the teacher in Irish, and they may not even understand everything the teacher is saying. A big thing I saw is that if the child doesn't understand, rather than just say it in English, the teacher will gesture or show a picture of what they're trying to say until the kid understands.
My goddaughter knew the odd word - cota, mála scoile, etc. Before long she was speaking in English with the odd Irish word thrown in, eg "Where's my bosca lón?". Within another few months, the kids were able to mostly able to understand what the teacher was saying, and able to reply using a mixture of English and Irish.
There was no sitting down with textbooks learning verbs or anything like that.

Its such a natural way of learning, and now, aged 9, she's pretty much fluent. It would be far more successful for children to learn like this rather than with her head stuck in a book trying to make sense of the grammar and trying to decipher the meaning of a poem.

witchgirl26 · 09-10-2017 11:44AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But its the chicken and egg story. How do you expect parents to help the kids when they themselves either hate the memories of their own educational journey or simply see it as useless?

There are plenty (all) parents that give over huge amounts of time to GAA, Rugby, piano lessons, Irish dancing, ballet, swimming blah blah, so what is the reason they will do that but not, as your rightly suggest, encourage Irish?

I don't know why parents would do that. I'm not one myself so can't comment. However I know my other half hated learning Irish and is not a fan of it being compulsory and even said he'd make an effort to ensure any child of his would have at least a few words of Irish. My nieces in the UK can speak a few words as their dad taught them some despite not having much left of his own but he saw the importance of it.

Maybe there is a roll for schools to encourage parents when children start to help out.

Inability to learn our native language

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