Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Billy86 · 25-09-2017 01:53PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

If Americans are so stupid to not be able to get two better candidates than Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump then they don't deserve any sympathy. They are probably the most stupidest nation on the planet.

And yet I recall you being a huge Trump fan 12 months back...

As for the rest of your post, while I agree that gun control is an issue that the US needs to address, this is an issue that Clinton actually was trying to do so on with the likes of increased background checks and reinstating bans on assault weapons that went away under Bush and improvements in mental health care to reduce arms attacks, and I recall you calling that tyrannical and just cause for an uprising. A bit odd to be complaining about the number of guns around now, given how much Trump catered to the NRA crowd.

Billy86 · 25-09-2017 01:56PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

I think protesting national symbols is the wrong way to go. Next step is flag burning. You wont get a good reception anywhere doing that. Can you imagine it being done in Ireland. You wouldn't get far before someone would be having a word in your ear....

I can certainly imagine it being done in the UK, by a British born citizen; I supported that right to protest/refuse to partake just like I support this one.

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ancapailldorcha · 25-09-2017 01:56PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

If Americans are so stupid to not be able to get two better candidates than Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump then they don't deserve any sympathy. They are probably the most stupidest nation on the planet.

This sort of inflammatory nonsense is not welcome here. No more please.

Leroy42 · 25-09-2017 02:00PM

But they are not burning the flag. Why bring that into it. Thats akin to saying that Trump is mean on tweets but what next is he goes out and beats people up. This is the same lines as W Bush argument that you are either on the US side of a terrorist!

They are protesting because the anthem is supposed to be for the USA, a country based on equality and that they feel that as people of colour that ideal is not being upheld and why would they choose to stand to attention for the anthem of a country that doesn't exist.

They are not being violent, they are no disrespecting those that choose to stand. CK merely wanted to raise the issue and felt that he needed to take a stand (of kneel in this case) in order to get people to talk about it.

Trump has called them Son of B1tches, and called for their livelihoods to be removed. Not due process, no discussion of their grievences. Call them names and threaten them and their families. His job is to uphold the constitution, and he is actively trying to usurp it

Have you listened to his explanation of why he choose this course?

A Little Pony · 25-09-2017 02:02PM

Billy86 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

If Americans are so stupid to not be able to get two better candidates than Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump then they don't deserve any sympathy. They are probably the most stupidest nation on the planet.

And yet I recall you being a huge Trump fan 12 months back...

As for the rest of your post, while I agree that gun control is an issue that the US needs to address, this is an issue that Clinton actually was trying to do so on with the likes of increased background checks and reinstating bans on assault weapons that went away under Bush and improvements in mental health care to reduce arms attacks, and I recall you calling that tyrannical and just cause for an uprising. A bit odd to be complaining about the number of guns around now, given how much Trump catered to the NRA crowd.

I'm not complaining about it, I am just giving an observation on the contradictory position of those against Trump of which a lot of them would not vote to put reforms on the 2nd Amendment or scrap it altogether.Hillary didn't get elected because she is more dodgy than Trump of which the people got to know over 20+ years.

Christy42 · 25-09-2017 02:03PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

I think protesting national symbols is the wrong way to go. Next step is flag burning. You wont get a good reception anywhere doing that. Can you imagine it being done in Ireland. You wouldn't get far before someone would be having a word in your ear....

It is always the wrong way to protest. Anything but talk about the issue being protested. The only way this argument goes away is if they protest in their own homes and no one knows about it. This is the only way they are going to get any sort of reception. Similarly with the unpatriotic bull. The players have repeatedly said they have no issue with the military and the protest has nothing to do with them. People keep calling them unpatriotic to avoid talking about the issues with policing in the states.

Most protests tend to start off unpopular in any case. Some stay that way and die, some don't.

The next step argument is also random. No one has mentioned flag burning.

Yeah I can imagine it being done in Ireland. I can't see a massive backlash either.

Disgruntled Badger · 25-09-2017 02:06PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I can certainly imagine it being done in the UK, by a British born citizen; I supported that right to protest/refuse to partake just like I support this one.

Sort of the point. Does not achieve anything. Just gets right up people's noses. There are smarter ways to get your point across rather than just being highly inflammatory. Wear a 'I Hate Trump' tee shirt. Rather than make a gesture that says I hate the USA which is how some will and do interpret it.

oscarBravo · 25-09-2017 02:08PM

Christy42 wrote: »

The only way this argument goes away is if they protest in their own homes and no one knows about it.

That's precisely the point. It doesn't matter what form the protest takes; the bottom line is that some people are offended by the fact of the protest, but won't admit it.

It's why I asked one poster earlier what form of protest would be considered acceptable. The whole "disrespecting the flag" rubbish is a dog-whistle for "I wish black people would just shut up already".

Kneeling during the anthem isn't even particularly disrespectful, by comparison with the way flag protocol is flagrantly violated on a daily basis by self-styled patriots.

Phonehead · 25-09-2017 02:14PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Sort of the point. Does not achieve anything. Just gets right up people's noses. There are smarter ways to get your point across rather than just being highly inflammatory. Wear a 'I Hate Trump' tee shirt. Rather than make a gesture that says I hate the USA which is how some will and do interpret it.

How does it in anyway say "I hate the USA" The truth of the fact is that those who take exception to this kneel would also take same stance if African Americans wrote a harshly worded letter to their politicians.

Leroy42 · 25-09-2017 02:19PM

CK was really smart about this. He did it respectfully, didn't create a fuss. He didn't call anyone else out on it, or even ask others to join him or berate those that disagreed with him.

That is all down to Trump. He has taken what was really one mans protest, and he is no longer part of the NFL, and create a nationwide discussion. He called those protesting Sons on Bitches and called for their livelihoods to be taken away from them.

So when you ask what does it achieve, well on its own it probably would have achieved nothing. But Trump's inability to deal with anything in a remotely intelligent way means that this has exploded onto the national consciousness.

Of course you will get those that simply attack the protester and never even wonder why they have a problem. "if you don't like US get out!" is their response rather than wondering why a person with apparently so much going for them still feels the US is not working. Rather than try to look at the issue (and by all means reject it after that) they simply call them names. They are simply following the example Trump is setting them.

Yet they are the very ones saying that Trump is a protest candidate. They want things to change. They accept that Trump may cause some serious issues but their desire for change means they will accept that.

This is a man that refused to fight for his country when asked to.

Billy86 · 25-09-2017 02:25PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I'm not complaining about it, I am just giving an observation on the contradictory position of those against Trump of which a lot of them would not vote to put reforms on the 2nd Amendment or scrap it altogether.Hillary didn't get elected because she is more dodgy than Trump of which the people got to know over 20+ years.

That's the thing about being president he nor his voters seem too aware of, whether that's a result of confusing politics with sports or not I couldn't say for certain, but once the election is over whoever wins it has the job of attempting to represent, lead and look out for the entirety of the country and not just those who voted for them. It's possibly the single biggest reason that Trump's regime has not only been horrific in their intent but also horrendous in their execution, ultimately leading to nothing getting done because of their utter ineptness; the debacle this weekend really encapsulates that perfectly.

Trump however has surpassed himself and gone on to already be possibly the dodgiest high profile politician in the entirety of the US' history. So there's that...

Leroy42 · 25-09-2017 02:27PM

Of course it is on not coincidence that Trump kicked this off on the weekend that it was reported that Jared is now using personal e-mail. This is the SIN that HC was so attacked over, resulting in the Lock her Up mantra.

Now of course we will hear all the excuses and 'facts' that he didn't use it for confidential business etc but lets not pretend that those chanting Lock Her Up knew of the details. That fact that she used her own server was 'proof' enough that she was up to something. The whole if she had nothing to hide why do it.

Yet I can bet 100% that Trump won't even reprimand Jared. And none of his supporters will have a question about it. And therein lies the hypocrisy. They can dress their 'ideals' and 'protest vote' as much as they want, but in the end the very things they said they railed against - Financial gain from office, financial connections with foreign powers, shady dealings are exactly what Trump is doing but now is seems it isn't a problem.

Billy86 · 25-09-2017 02:28PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Sort of the point. Does not achieve anything. Just gets right up people's noses. There are smarter ways to get your point across rather than just being highly inflammatory. Wear a 'I Hate Trump' tee shirt. Rather than make a gesture that says I hate the USA which is how some will and do interpret it.

If it gets up peoples noses, that's their own issue - doesn't stop an athlete from having the right to refuse to take part in something like an anthem or poppy day, that they don't want to.

Disgruntled Badger · 25-09-2017 02:34PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But they are not burning the flag. Why bring that into it. Thats akin to saying that Trump is mean on tweets but what next is he goes out and beats people up. This is the same lines as W Bush argument that you are either on the US side of a terrorist!

They are protesting because the anthem is supposed to be for the USA, a country based on equality and that they feel that as people of colour that ideal is not being upheld and why would they choose to stand to attention for the anthem of a country that doesn't exist.

They are not being violent, they are no disrespecting those that choose to stand. CK merely wanted to raise the issue and felt that he needed to take a stand (of kneel in this case) in order to get people to talk about it.

Trump has called them Son of B1tches, and called for their livelihoods to be removed. Not due process, no discussion of their grievences. Call them names and threaten them and their families. His job is to uphold the constitution, and he is actively trying to usurp it

Have you listened to his explanation of why he choose this course?

I didn't say they were. I said the next step is flag burning. His explanation is irrelevant if it is misinterpreted, and pointless if it leads to further division which it does. Just not a smart way to go. The smart way would be to reclaim the symbol from those you feel misrepresent it.

Phonehead · 25-09-2017 02:41PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

I didn't say they were. I said the next step is flag burning. His explanation is irrelevant if it is misinterpreted, and pointless if it leads to further division which it does. Just not a smart way to go. The smart way would be to reclaim the symbol from those you feel misrepresent it.

The next step is flag burning? that's one seismic step!

Christy42 · 25-09-2017 02:42PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

I didn't say they were. I said the next step is flag burning. His explanation is irrelevant if it is misinterpreted, and pointless if it leads to further division which it does. Just not a smart way to go. The smart way would be to reclaim the symbol from those you feel misrepresent it.

They have repeatedly stated their reasons repeatedly. If they are still being misinterpreted there is not a whole lot they can do but repeat themselves. No matter they do it would misinterpreted.

Further division was inevitable as people simply don't want to listen to it and it means a lot to others. Division was already there. What is happening is that one side is no longer putting up with it for the sake of not speaking up.

Leroy42 · 25-09-2017 02:45PM

He has no control over how others behave in response, only his behaviour. So are the cops not to blame when they shoot a black man and some of the community interpreted as racism. Are you really putting the blame for people taking offence on the protester? Yet these are the very same people who call people snowflakes and SJW.

Should one only ever protest if one is assured that nobody will take offence?

How is the next step flag burning? They haven't torn down a flag, ripped up a flag, spoken out against the flag. Nothing actually against the flag.
They are not protesting about the USA as a country, only about the fact that to them, the USA as it currently is falls short of what that country is supposed to be.

wes · 25-09-2017 02:53PM

I can't blame some African American's having issues with the US anthem, when it has lines like this:

‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ and Slavery

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Disgruntled Badger · 25-09-2017 03:05PM

Phonehead wrote: »

The next step is flag burning? that's one seismic step!

Well probably not on an NFL field alright.

I suppose the next step would be to turn their backs on it. Which would be bad. They could point the soles of their feet at it but that is going to be lost on a lot of Americans. Maybe they could moon at it? :-)

Phonehead · 25-09-2017 03:18PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Well probably not on an NFL field alright.

I suppose the next step would be to turn their backs on it. Which would be bad. They could point the soles of their feet at it but that is going to be lost on a lot of Americans. Maybe they could moon at it? :-)

Why do you keep jumping to "next steps" Why must everything lead to a massive escalation? this society of fear we live in is ridiculous.

pitifulgod · 25-09-2017 03:32PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Well probably not on an NFL field alright.

I suppose the next step would be to turn their backs on it. Which would be bad. They could point the soles of their feet at it but that is going to be lost on a lot of Americans. Maybe they could moon at it? :-)

They kneeled because they don't view the United States is behaving in an equal fashion to people of colour and that the POTUS is damaging the US to a detrimental degree. It's an incredibly clean and respectful form of peaceful protest. I honestly viewed the image of players kneeling to be one of the most powerful images of the year. The fact that Trump has transformed has unwittingly made an entire sport to stand up against what is utterly wrong. I suspect this is only the beginning.

demfad · 25-09-2017 03:40PM

Trump is attacking black sportspeople to shore up his base while distracting.

'Distract while shoring up base' was his persistent election tactic.

Disgruntled Badger · 25-09-2017 03:44PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

They kneeled because they don't view the United States is behaving in an equal fashion to people of colour and that the POTUS is damaging the US to a detrimental degree. It's an incredibly clean and respectful form of peaceful protest. I honestly viewed the image of players kneeling to be one of the most powerful images of the year. The fact that Trump has transformed has unwittingly made an entire sport to stand up against what is utterly wrong. I suspect this is only the beginning.

So it'll escalate then

pitifulgod · 25-09-2017 03:47PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

So it'll escalate then

I imagine so but I can't see it just being NFL that ends up protesting.

Disgruntled Badger · 25-09-2017 03:49PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

They kneeled because they don't view the United States is behaving in an equal fashion to people of colour and that the POTUS is damaging the US to a detrimental degree. It's an incredibly clean and respectful form of peaceful protest. I honestly viewed the image of players kneeling to be one of the most powerful images of the year. The fact that Trump has transformed has unwittingly made an entire sport to stand up against what is utterly wrong. I suspect this is only the beginning.

Far from the entire sport. I dare say a lot of NFL fans probably voted for Trump and would again.

Harika · 25-09-2017 03:51PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

I imagine so but I can't see it just being NFL that ends up protesting.

NASCAR didn't so Trump praised them on twitter. Only some voices

https://twitter.com/DaleJr/status/912284220067893248

Overall America is getting more and more divided, and we are getting closer and closer to an escalation.

pitifulgod · 25-09-2017 03:56PM

Harika wrote: »

NASCAR didn't so Trump praised them on twitter. Only some voices

https://twitter.com/DaleJr/status/912284220067893248

Overall America is getting more and more divided, and we are getting closer and closer to an escalation.

Nascar has a substantially different membership in contrast to NFL and would be a far smaller follower base I imagine.

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Far from the entire sport. I dare say a lot of NFL fans probably voted for Trump and would again.

The majority of teams engaged in some form of protest yesterday. It also has the biggest stars protesting as a user pointed out earlier. Ones who would not have done so a year ago.

RGDATA! · 25-09-2017 03:57PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Sort of the point. Does not achieve anything. Just gets right up people's noses. There are smarter ways to get your point across rather than just being highly inflammatory. Wear a 'I Hate Trump' tee shirt. Rather than make a gesture that says I hate the USA which is how some will and do interpret it.

Nonsense. I think the protest has achieved a lot & I don't think your proposed alternative of "I Hate Trump" t-shirts would be perceived as not being "inflammatory", I'm sure plenty would interpret that as saying "I hate the USA".

Phonehead · 25-09-2017 03:58PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

Far from the entire sport. I dare say a lot of NFL fans probably voted for Trump and would again.

Hard to know really for those States that did vote Trump, Most urban areas voted Clinton and that is where teams are based, granted every team will probably have a large rural following too so it's like trying to guess how many are pro or anti-brexit at a premiership game.

RGDATA! · 25-09-2017 03:59PM

Disgruntled Badger wrote: »

So it'll escalate then

So when can we expect flag burning on the field as you ludicrously suggested as an inevitability earlier?

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

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