Brexit discussion thread II

embraer170 · 16-09-2017 07:28AM

Boris is still trying to sell the 350 million story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_ApcPCdJQj6vh

Fratton Fred · 16-09-2017 08:30AM

View wrote: »

Parliament made a choice NOT to act on the majority view in the 1979 referendum on devolution for Scotland.

As such it is clear that Parliament is perfectly willing to ignore majority opinion in an advisory referendum when it suits itself.

Parliament didnt ignore anything, the criteria was not met.

Enzokk · 16-09-2017 08:32AM

embraer170 wrote: »

Boris is still trying to sell the 350 million story:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/exclusive-boris-johnson-yes-will-take-back-350m-eu-nhs/?WT.mc_id=tmgliveapp_iosshare_ApcPCdJQj6vh

Boris Johnson, the man who wants to get rid of the tampon tax that is imposed on the UK by the EU, by voting against an amendment to force the government to go to the EU and lobby for a change. He is so for the change he voted against it, and he still thinks there will be £350 million per week as well. I think he has just set out his stall to be the next leader of the Conservatives, no single market, no customs union and no ECJ. He again plunged his party into chaos as whatever decision the PM does now will be seized upon. If she goes hard Brexit then you have only a small majority to work with. If she goes for a softer Brexit then Boris will be there with the other hard Brexit MP's to derail those plans. What a chaos creator. I guess Theresa May will rue the day she made him foreign secretary.

He adds: “Outside the EU there are obvious opportunities… in the setting of indirect taxation. At the stroke of a pen, the Chancellor will be able to cut VAT on tampons; often demanded by parliament but – absurdly – legally impossible to deliver.”

Quote from article above.

Tampon tax: Here are the MPs who voted against the amendment to scrap it

Professor Moriarty · 16-09-2017 08:46AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm torn between hoping for a Swiss Brexit doing minimal damage for my own sake and that of the brits my age and younger who will be dragged out of the EU against their will, and a hard Brexit with rains of frogs, locusts the works to teach the UKippers a harsh lesson.

Switzerland was finally forced to accept free movement of workers in December 2016 after the EU withdrew access to research, Horizon and Erasmus until they changed their position. There are many other bilateral agreements that would infuriate Brexiteers so the Swiss model isn't a runner. The Swiss climb down is also a vivid warning to Brexiteers as to what happens when the EU flexes it's muscles in negotiations.

murphaph · 16-09-2017 08:47AM

How can the EU take the UK seriously as negotiating partners with such deep division in the sodding cabinet?! The government of the United Kingdom does not actually know what it wants from the negotiations.

Johnson is a despicable man on every level. He would happily destroy the economy of the UK for his own career.

solodeogloria · 16-09-2017 09:24AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Switzerland was finally forced to accept free movement of workers in December 2016 after the EU withdrew access to research, Horizon and Erasmus until they changed their position. There are many other bilateral agreements that would infuriate Brexiteers so the Swiss model isn't a runner. The Swiss climb down is also a vivid warning to Brexiteers as to what happens when the EU flexes it's muscles in negotiations.

Good morning!

There won't be a climb down here. The Government know that not delivering Brexit is electoral suicide. Unlike the Swiss Government democracy is respected in the UK. The EU isn't really a shining example of respecting democratic votes in national plebiscites.

I think there will be movement on the money issue next week. There's a lot of anticipation in respect to Theresa May's speech in Florence next week. According to the Financial Times Nick Clegg has pointed out that the Treasury have left aside funds for the possibility of contributions until 2021. Three years after Brexit. I think this funding will be used. I think Whitehall has known this for some time too. However the UK is going to insist that this is a contribution for single market access. That's the only way they can put this to the British public. They are obviously going to tie the payment to transition otherwise it is unsellable. The UK needs to get something out of this. I suspect they will.

This is why not giving the EU everything they want is the right strategy.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

tomwaterford · 16-09-2017 09:34AM

View wrote: »

So, if you asked someone for advice and they advised you to give them all your money and to do so for the rest of your life, you'd regard their advice as being a binding instruction that you must follow, right? :-)

But of an irrelevant and silly anology

But still can't see how anyone can call themselves democratic and be in favour of ignoring election/referendum results what don't suit them

By all means dictatorship is a valid political opionn as any other,just it's been rejected around the world

Mancomb Seepgood · 16-09-2017 09:40AM

Boris has been given a Telegraph article - this is one of his 10 points for a successful Brexit.Honestly.

Brexit will be a success

“This country will succeed in our new national enterprise, and will succeed mightily.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-johnsons-10-point-plan-successful-brexit/amp/

Jim2007 · 16-09-2017 09:50AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Switzerland was finally forced to accept free movement of workers in December 2016 after the EU withdrew access to research, Horizon and Erasmus until they changed their position. There are many other bilateral agreements that would infuriate Brexiteers so the Swiss model isn't a runner. The Swiss climb down is also a vivid warning to Brexiteers as to what happens when the EU flexes it's muscles in negotiations.

I think we need to be careful here, because this is not how it is seen in Switzerland.

The referendum was carried on a low turnout by about 20,000 people. It was seen as a bit of nonsense and thus there was no campaign by the government nor the other political parties and voters did not feel the need to go out and vote it down. Thus it is seen as a mistake that needs to be fixed and we will with a referendum in the next two years.

So in Switzerland (CH), the EU and CH are seen to be on the same side trying to find a solution to a bit of stupidity that never should have happened. So not the same situation as the U.K.

The other thing to understand is that CH did actually get a significant concession. The new rule gives priority to Swiss citizens and permanent residents. So that now employers need to show that there is no one in the Swiss labor market available to take the job before a permit will be issued to an EU/EEA citizen. Furthermore salaries must be inline with market conditions and enforceable Swiss employment contracts must be submitted as part of the permit application process.

solodeogloria · 16-09-2017 10:01AM

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

Boris has been given a Telegraph article - this is one of his 10 points for a successful Brexit.Honestly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-johnsons-10-point-plan-successful-brexit/amp/

Good morning!

With all due respect the full article is here.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

steddyeddy · 16-09-2017 10:08AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

With all due respect the full article is here.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The full article doesn't negate the fairy tale ideology Boris and the other Brexiters are espousing as economic fact.

Akrasia · 16-09-2017 10:18AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

"More integration" is key word for handing over more control to the EU. It means taking more control from the democratically elected parliamentarians in member states.

Take for instance membership of the Eurozone. Juncker is now saying that every member state should be a part of it. But Britain benefited significantly from being outside of it. Giving the bloc a new "finance minister" to strong arm member states isn't the answer.

Or compulsory membership of Schengen - it doesn't suit Ireland at all given our common travel area with the UK.

That's before we get into common tax policy which would threaten Irish business.

The EU isn't an all benevolent institution. If it wants to be a federal superstate it should propose this notion directly and see how much traction it gets.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

That common travel area with Britain that Britain unilaterally voted to leave last year?
Ireland always wanted to be part of Shengen but couldn't because of the UK. Now that the border is back, Ireland can focus on EU integration without the UK holding us back.

steddyeddy · 16-09-2017 10:19AM

I may disagree with Leo in a number of ways but his is a voice that is largely absent from the Brexit debate in the UK. Not because the British remain voters are any less vocal in their arguement. It's because the voice of reason in the UK has been shouted down by the likes of Boris, Farage and Fox with chants and accusations to the tones of "Brexit means Brexit" and "a vote was cast and Britain made up her mind".

Leo's not restrained his views on the issues Brexit brings our country and the UK. Now he seems set to back that up by blocking the next round of Brexit talks due to lack of reality in the Irish border discussions. People may say that the EU doesn't care about Ireland, but they've shown us far more understanding for our situation than the Tory government.

"At a Fine Gael pre-Dáil conference in Co Tipperary, the Taoiseach sent out a stark message to our strongest trading partner, the UK, saying Ireland would not allow London to begin negotiating its future with the EU."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/leo-varadkar-set-to-block-next-stage-of-brexit-talks-459082.html

murphaph · 16-09-2017 11:47AM

Akrasia wrote: »

That common travel area with Britain that Britain unilaterally voted to leave last year?
Ireland always wanted to be part of Shengen but couldn't because of the UK. Now that the border is back, Ireland can focus on EU integration without the UK holding us back.

The sad reality is that we won't be joining Schengen anytime soon. The EU has no problem with a fairly porous immigration border with the UK so long as Ireland is outside Schengen. They have a problem with goods easily crossing into the EU unchecked.

Joining Schengen would mean we'd have to strictly control migration across the land border. This is just not realistic and would impose a lot of hardship on border dwellers. I think the EU will accept spot checks on goods but that would never be accepted for Schengen.

Calina · 16-09-2017 01:01PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

There won't be a climb down here. The Government know that not delivering Brexit is electoral suicide. Unlike the Swiss Government democracy is respected in the UK. The EU isn't really a shining example of respecting democratic votes in national plebiscites.

The UK has a ridiculous FPTP voting system, a second house which is not elected at all, so.e of which inherit their seats, some of whom get their seats on the basis of being senior clerics, an unelected head of state which is hereditary, ran a referendum in a ridiculously incompetent manner, and has a govt is trying to carry out a power grab from the elected house via Henry VIII powers and you think it can lecture Switzerland, a country with a hell of a lot of devolution, years of experience of direct democracy?

Not buying it.

Lemming · 16-09-2017 02:28PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Again, parliament promised in 2013 to implement the result of the referendum.

Was that before or after the cabinet drafted the actual proposal that was carried through to referendum? Y'know, the one that has the words "advisory" and "referendum" next to each other.

Saying it should be ignored is just whinging because you lost.

Show me once where I have said the result should be ignored. Please. And whilst we're at it, how about answering my earlier questions put to you about your claims about everythign being crystal clear. Y'know, those questions that you have conveniently "forgotten" about in your reply. Well how about it solo? I wont be holding my breath on either your admission that I have never once said the result should be ignored nor your providing "crystal clear" citation of "crystal clear" objectives by the Leave campaign (and again, which leave campaign exactly?).

Also, if you want to find out why people voted leave, there are a number of good places near where you're living in South Yorkshire. If you live in Sheffield you could start there, but I'd recommend having a chat with people in Doncaster or in Wakefield (or watch the BBC Question Time episode from there before the summer recess). You could also try nearby Rotherham.

So, arrogance much? I lived in Rotherham. For six years to be exact. With front-row seats given where I lived for every single EDL/BNP/NF march/riot thank you very much. My next door neighbours are from Doncaster, and I've more than a few friends up that way too. Same in Barnsley and elsewhere, scattered amongst former pit villages a-plenty. And the common theme amongst all those who voted to leave is this: not one of them can articulate any coherent, tangible reason as to why. One of them came close but even he acknowledges that on the whole EU membership has been a positive and that leaving will be an absolute sh1t-show, but he wants out anyway. I've even had current and former workmates (from different jobs) suggest that I leave the country. All of that is on top of the common theme (in general) that is a shockingly low awareness of what the EU is/does/cannot do; I've heard some very peculiar notions over the years and not all #Wrexsh1t related.

I have a right to an opinion. You seem to have misunderstood my point though.

You have a right to an opinion. That doesn't mean you're either right nor have it right, nor even clear on what it is you're trying to say.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

There won't be a climb down here. The Government know that not delivering Brexit is electoral suicide. Unlike the Swiss Government democracy is respected in the UK. The EU isn't really a shining example of respecting democratic votes in national plebiscites.

How about you acknowledge Jim2007's post after yours regards the Swiss referendum fallout. Perhaps with a serving of humble pie.

solodeogloria · 16-09-2017 03:30PM

Akrasia wrote: »

That common travel area with Britain that Britain unilaterally voted to leave last year?
Ireland always wanted to be part of Shengen but couldn't because of the UK. Now that the border is back, Ireland can focus on EU integration without the UK holding us back.

Good afternoon!

You do realise that the Common Travel Area (CTA) is a cross travel area between Ireland and Britain that isn't dependent on membership of the European Union?

There has been free travel between Ireland and Britain since the establishment of the Free State in 1922, this continued when Ireland was granted dominion status (similar to Australia in the 1930's) and after the passing of the Republic of Ireland Act in parliament in 1949.

The UK have promised to keep this commitment to Irish citizens by ensuring the preservation of the Common Travel Area arrangements after Brexit.

The thing with EU integration is how much or how little do you want. Where does "ever closer union" stop? Are there aspirations in a real sense for a superstate like the "United States of Europe"? What do Jean Claude Juncker and others mean when they say they are passionate about the European project? What is the end goal of the European project?

These questions are real, and are serious. It's clear that the UK didn't want this, so to slam the brakes and change course is a good option. I would be sceptical as to how far Ireland would tolerate common tax harmonisation which is the basis of a lot of its economy.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

PeadarCo · 16-09-2017 03:50PM

solodeogloria wrote:

You do realise that the Common Travel Area (CTA) is a cross travel area between Ireland and Britain that isn't dependent on membership of the European Union?

If the UK leaves the customs union and the single market there will be a hard border and the common travel area will be hard to sustain. There may not be an issue for Ireland and UK citizens but for every other nationality and the import and export of goods some sort of border post will be required. Businesses in Ireland will insist on it. You only need to cast your mind back to the foot and mouth outbreak in cattle back in 2001/2002. There was a large effort by the department of agriculture to ensure the disease didn't cross the border and harm the agriffood industry. That included monitoring people and vehicles crossing the border. If the UK start bringing in regulations that harm Irish businesses lobby groups won't be long in making themselves heard.

The IFA a number of years ago went to some considerable lengths to get Argentinean beef banned in the EU because they felt it wasn't up to EU standards. Don't be surprised if this starts happening when the UK leaves in different industries.

Christy42 · 16-09-2017 03:50PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

You do realise that the Common Travel Area (CTA) is a cross travel area between Ireland and Britain that isn't dependent on membership of the European Union?

There has been free travel between Ireland and Britain since the establishment of the Free State in 1922, this continued when Ireland was granted dominion status (similar to Australia in the 1930's) and after the passing of the Republic of Ireland Act in parliament in 1949.

The UK have promised to keep this commitment to Irish citizens by ensuring the preservation of the Common Travel Area arrangements after Brexit.

The thing with EU integration is how much or how little do you want. Where does "ever closer union" stop? Are there aspirations in a real sense for a superstate like the "United States of Europe"? What do Jean Claude Juncker and others mean when they say they are passionate about the European project? What is the end goal of the European project?

These questions are real, and are serious. It's clear that the UK didn't want this, so to slam the brakes and change course is a good option. I would be sceptical as to how far Ireland would tolerate common tax harmonisation which is the basis of a lot of its economy.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The cta changed once the UK and Ireland went into the EU.

The circumstances are different. The UK can promise what it likes. The issue of delivering is not so easy anymore.

It isn't clear what the UK wants at all which is a large part of the issue. Just over half want to leave the EU in some manner or form but what they want from that is anybodies guess.

I mean come on we have statements like red, white and blue brexit which is an entirely meaningless phrase. Most demands have not made sense either If politicians are not willing to lay down whst they want after the vote how do we know what the people wanted? How do we know they are going for the type of brexit a decent percentage wanted? It was a poorly worded referendum as the point was to get a few far right votes and then vote to stay in the EU.

That said they have set it up so it is hard to see them changing course. They have steered towards the cliff edge and while I can see why people want to figure out a way of changing this I don't see anything but brexit occurring.

As for the end goal of the European project, what is the end goal of the UK? There is none. Both of them simply have (or should have) the goal of improving the lives of the people which will be a never ending task. Obviously there are differences in opinion as to how to achieve this. Where the EU will go from here is up to the various member states and for them to agree on (including Ireland).

Jim2007 · 16-09-2017 05:27PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

You do realise that the Common Travel Area (CTA) is a cross travel area between Ireland and Britain that isn't dependent on membership of the European Union?

Incorrect but not surprising! The CTA existed before the EU treaties, but the treaties do make a provision to allow it's continuation and modification between two member states.

And no I'm not going to waste time posting you a link etc... It up to you to keep informed.

Jim2007 · 16-09-2017 05:34PM

murphaph wrote: »

The sad reality is that we won't be joining Schengen anytime soon.

The question is will the EU and other Schengen members be willing to set up yet another exception to allow UK citizens visa free travel in the EU/EEA/CH area... or will they just have to apply for third country visas...

Thargor · 16-09-2017 06:10PM

Wow, Boris Johnson embracing the £350 million NHS battlebus out of nowhere all of a sudden, you'd think they'd want to leave that buried:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0916/905199-boris-johnson-brexit/

Just heard the presenter on Sky News describe the £350 million claim as "completely and utterly disproven" and him and his guests spent the rest of the segment wondering what he's doing.

This is Big Lie propaganda territory here, he knows its not true and so does everyone else, how are they going to defend this on the likes of Newsnight and Question Time?

Capt'n Midnight · 16-09-2017 06:12PM

Calina wrote: »

The UK has a ridiculous FPTP voting system, a second house which is not elected at all, so.e of which inherit their seats, some of whom get their seats on the basis of being senior clerics, an unelected head of state which is hereditary, ran a referendum in a ridiculously incompetent manner, and has a govt is trying to carry out a power grab from the elected house via Henry VIII powers and you think it can lecture Switzerland, a country with a hell of a lot of devolution, years of experience of direct democracy?

Not buying it.

Some more notes on UK democracy.
The right of hereditary peers to automatically sit has been removed, well sort of, they vote for each other.

House of Lords has a membership of 798 the quorum is 30 ( 1 in 26 ) for legislation and just 3 for a general or procedural vote.

The House of Commons has a quorum of 40 MP's out of 650 ( 1 in 16 ) and thanks to the Parliament Act can overrule the House of Lords.

And of course without a written constitution these restrictions could start to be removed by the next vote.

Enzokk · 16-09-2017 06:48PM

Thargor wrote: »

Wow, Boris Johnson embracing the £350 million NHS battlebus out of nowhere all of a sudden, you'd think they'd want to leave that buried:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0916/905199-boris-johnson-brexit/

Just heard the presenter on Sky News describe the £350 million claim as "completely and utterly disproven" and him and his guests spent the rest of the segment wondering what he's doing.

This is Big Lie propaganda territory here, he knows its not true and so does everyone else, how are they going to defend this on the likes of Newsnight and Question Time?

Seems like he is positioning himself where he wanted with Cameron, as the option for the right wing Conservatives at the next leadership election. Funny that he and Donald Trump positioned themselves with the right wing of the party/population to try and obtain power. Unfortunately I think that says much about those that have those points of view.

I read somewhere that Boris Johnson only does what is best for Boris Johnson and the rest be damned. Seems that is right on the money. He changed position very quickly and the fact that he had 2 pieces written, one for the EU and one against the EU, just before he declared he was all for leaving the EU should make anyone thinking he is an answer to anything sit up and take notice and think again.

But I guess he has funny hair and he talks in a strange way, so what could go wrong, right?

Rjd2 · 16-09-2017 06:57PM

Thargor wrote: »

Wow, Boris Johnson embracing the £350 million NHS battlebus out of nowhere all of a sudden, you'd think they'd want to leave that buried:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0916/905199-boris-johnson-brexit/

Just heard the presenter on Sky News describe the £350 million claim as "completely and utterly disproven" and him and his guests spent the rest of the segment wondering what he's doing.

This is Big Lie propaganda territory here, he knows its not true and so does everyone else, how are they going to defend this on the likes of Newsnight and Question Time?

Picked a great weekend to do it as there is literally nothing more important going on in the UK at the moment.:mad::rolleyes:

No matter your POV on Brexit or Johnson, you should be able to recognise this is a power play from a man who has clearly got restless waiting for May to fall on her sword.

May who is still in charge won't thank for him it nor will Hammond but for someone like Johnson who as Brexit has proved politics is no more than sport for him, he won't give a ****.

Dont be at yourself · 16-09-2017 07:02PM

With May supposedly announcing in Florence a somewhat softening in her position, including the possibility of staying in the single market/customs union for a transition period, it seems clear that Johnson is just positioning himself for a leadership heave.

May will now need to sell the public on EU budget payments, whole Boris is continuing to set the expectation that the UK will be on the receiving end of a windfall.

solodeogloria · 16-09-2017 07:40PM

Good evening!

I came across an excellent article in The Telegraph by two economists explaining the economic benefits of leaving the single market and the customs union. It could be a good starting point for discussing this properly.

It's a much much better articulation of some of the reasons I've highlighted already on this thread.

Its points on provision for services in the single market, EU free trade deals tending to be biased towards the interest of France and Germany, how WTO terms really aren't that terrible, and about the benefits of being able to negotiate free trade deals with countries individually outside of the EU tailored to national interests rather than the interests of 27 countries often with a strong bias towards 2.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha · 16-09-2017 07:42PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Its points on provision for services in the single market, EU free trade deals tending to be biased towards the interest of France and Germany, how WTO terms really aren't that terrible, and about the benefits of being able to negotiate free trade deals with countries individually outside of the EU tailored to national interests rather than the interests of 27 countries often with a strong bias towards 2.

How are they biased exactly?

solodeogloria · 16-09-2017 07:49PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How are they biased exactly?

Good evening!

Feel free to read the article and see what is said about it in the article and we can use that as a springboard for discussion.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Calina · 16-09-2017 07:57PM

You do not appear to have provided a link to said article.

Brexit discussion thread II

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