Brexit discussion thread II

Nody · 25-08-2017 11:24AM

Blowfish wrote: »

You keep saying that, but then the position papers say that the UK want to partake in areas which the ECJ is the sole arbitrator of and that the UK wants a 'special relationship' with the EU.

That's the principle issue and why Varadkar mentioned the 'puzzlement' from the EU side. The political end ('brexit is brexit', 'no ECJ' etc.) is contradictory to the position papers ('lets be special friends').

The confusion is that you're not thinking as a Brit; you see EU should change all their legislation, rules etc. to basically make UK have everything they do inside EU when outside of EU. That is excluding all those pesky rules such as having to follow the EU rules, illegal deportation, personal data integrity etc of course since UK government knows best.

Now I'm sure you're asking yourself why in the seven hells would EU do this? Once again you need to think like a Brit; UK is the center of the world which everything else revolves around being part of deep history of WW2, empire builder etc. so naturally everyone in the world would do anything for a chance to bask in their glory and daredevilry. Giving up founding principles, changing laws and rules only for UK simply makes sense for that opportunity; after all UK is the most important country in the world and EU would greatly lose out if they would not strike such a deal.

Now take the above and think this is how reality looks like for someone like Boris "Eat cake and have it" Johnson who actually believes the above and you'll better understand the UK papers. The only minor flaw of course being that no one else but UK thinks that way but since when should the UK government let minor things such as facts or reality inconvenience them after all? The world will simply turn their way if it's repeated often enough because Brexit means Brexit.

Panrich · 25-08-2017 11:26AM

Blowfish wrote: »

You keep saying that, but then the position papers say that the UK want to partake in areas which the ECJ is the sole arbitrator of and that the UK wants a 'special relationship' with the EU.

That's the principle issue and why Varadkar mentioned the 'puzzlement' from the EU side. The political end ('brexit is brexit', 'no ECJ' etc.) is contradictory to the position papers ('lets be special friends').

Exactly. All the position papers seem to want to rebuild or rebrand the current arrangements as far as possible. If Brexit was really about 'taking back control', then the position papers should look very different in my view. Why try to replicate what you want to leave behind in your quest to explore new opportunities.

As solodeogloria says, the Brexit vote was not to remain party to or retain close ties with the EU. Otherwise the ECJ, single market and customs union should still be on the table. The position papers so far seem to be making the case for maintaining them.

Zubeneschamali · 25-08-2017 01:42PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is not something dictated by the referendum result, and for Ministers to pretend that it is is an evasion of responsibility.

The referendum dictated nothing - it was advisory only and Parliament remains sovereign.

Even if the Government announced that Brexit is stupid and they are not doing it, there would be no consequences at all until the next GE, and they might win that anyway.

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 02:40PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

There will be a lot of back and forth over the coming months until a final conclusion is reached.

Oh I think you'll find there won't! There will be no movement at all until the three issues set out in the exit discussions are addressed and sufficient progress is made.

And this stage I think it is highly like that the EU will suspend the talk in October. At which point David Davis will be in an even worse position than before because he will somehow have to make it look good at home, while trying to get the EU back to the table.

blanch152 · 25-08-2017 03:45PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I won't lie for you. You can read the UK Government position papers, it's clear that it wants a good relationship with the EU and to cooperate with it as a third country.

I think you're wrong. The referendum was won because it was about taking back control. The UK Government are clear that the UK is leaving the single market and the customs union and is looking for a third country agreement. Direct ECJ oversight won't be agreed to.

The Government agreed to implement the results of the referendum. Therefore to weasel out of that and to say that they didn't agree to do this is wrong.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

These two parts of your post are self-contradictory. IF (and it is a big IF) the UK wants a close relationship with the EU, wants a seamless border etc., as implied by the first part of your post then the second part of your post, whereby there is no direct ECJ oversight just won't happen.

The UK can have the status of an Indonesia or a South Korea and not have ECJ jurisdiction, but the type of close co-operation being talked about isn't available to Indonesia or South Korea and will require ECJ oversight.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2017 05:29PM

Nody wrote: »

The confusion is that you're not thinking as a Brit; you see EU should change all their legislation, rules etc. to basically make UK have everything they do inside EU when outside of EU. That is excluding all those pesky rules such as having to follow the EU rules, illegal deportation, personal data integrity etc of course since UK government knows best.

Now I'm sure you're asking yourself why in the seven hells would EU do this? Once again you need to think like a Brit; UK is the center of the world which everything else revolves around being part of deep history of WW2, empire builder etc. so naturally everyone in the world would do anything for a chance to bask in their glory and daredevilry. Giving up founding principles, changing laws and rules only for UK simply makes sense for that opportunity; after all UK is the most important country in the world and EU would greatly lose out if they would not strike such a deal.

Now take the above and think this is how reality looks like for someone like Boris "Eat cake and have it" Johnson who actually believes the above and you'll better understand the UK papers. The only minor flaw of course being that no one else but UK thinks that way but since when should the UK government let minor things such as facts or reality inconvenience them after all? The world will simply turn their way if it's repeated often enough because Brexit means Brexit.

I said it before and I said it again; the UK hasn't educated its young people with a realistic sense of Britain's place in the world. This has led to Brexit. Specifically how they got to be wealthy and how their policies affected other countries. There were Brexiters ringing up James O'Brien telling him "we'll be fine, we used to rule 2/3rds of the world. They're relying on two false assumptions: that the rest of the world bears Britain tremendous good will and Britain's still has the influence of an empire.

YouGov found 44 per cent were proud of Britain’s history of colonialism while only 21 per cent regretted that it happened. 23 per cent held neither view.

The same poll also asked about whether the British Empire was a good thing or a bad thing: 43 per cent said it was good, while only 19 per cent said it was bad. 25 per cent responded that it was “neither”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-people-are-proud-of-colonialism-and-the-british-empire-poll-finds-a6821206.html

wes · 25-08-2017 05:33PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I said it before and I said it again; the UK hasn't educated its young people with a realistic sense of Britain's place in the world. This has led to Brexit. Specifically how they got to be wealthy and how their policies affected other countries. There were Brexiters ringing up James O'Brien telling him "we'll be fine, we used to rule 2/3rds of the world. They're relying on two false assumptions: that the rest of the world bears Britain tremendous good will and Britain's still has the influence of an empire.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-people-are-proud-of-colonialism-and-the-british-empire-poll-finds-a6821206.html

This was done deliberately btw. Operation Legacy, was the UK way of wiping out there colonial atrocities. The UK are just as bad as Japan and Turkey for ignoring there past colonial crimes.

There in for a rude awakening, as there former colonial subjects, do remember the past, and won't be looking to do the UK any favors. There in a for a well deserved rude awakening.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2017 05:42PM

wes wrote: »

This was done deliberately btw. Operation Legacy, was the UK way of wiping out there colonial atrocities. The UK are just as bad as Japan and Turkey for ignoring there past colonial crimes.

There in for a rude awakening, as there former colonial subjects, do remember the past, and won't be looking to do the UK any favors. There in a for a well deserved rude awakening.

It's amazing they barely teach this stuff at school. This has come back to bite them.

ArthurDayne · 25-08-2017 06:02PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I said it before and I said it again; the UK hasn't educated its young people with a realistic sense of Britain's place in the world

Absolutely. Even Churchill, that bastion of British defiance against continental threats, recognised that the decline of Old Europe could only be halted by pooling its power and sovereignty. Europe's renaissance as a great collective economic power and an emerging superpower was a remarkable achievement of adaptation. The UK managed to pull off an 'achievement within an achievement' by carving itself a rather special niche position within the EU, maintaining its currency and holding considerable sway in resisting 'interference' from Brussels. The EU became a formidable global power and, by virtue of the UK's influence within the EU, the British had very successfully recalibrated their place in the world and reestablished themselves as a major world player.

But unfortunately the British people, or at least a large proportion of them, do not seem to see it this way. They have been raised on a diet of British exceptionalism -- the fervent belief that Britain is an exception to the rest of the world and that its imperial history, its defiance and victory in the face of Napoleon and Hitler, along with the incredible influence it has had on human civilisation all entail that it is impervious to the forces that harm other 'lesser' nations. They view the EU as having been some straight-jacket holding them back from returning to the so-called glory days of Rule Britannia -- when in reality the EU has been the salvation of their influence.

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 07:19PM

wes wrote: »

This was done deliberately btw. Operation Legacy, was the UK way of wiping out there colonial atrocities. The UK are just as bad as Japan and Turkey for ignoring there past colonial crimes.

The only time the UK was a great trading nation was when they played on uneven ground - the had the British Navy to enforce their trading.... But given a more even field over the past 30 years or so, they have failed to produce a positive balance of trade in any year during that time.

wes wrote: »

There in for a rude awakening, as there former colonial subjects, do remember the past, and won't be looking to do the UK any favors. There in a for a well deserved rude awakening.

It is not just that, those countries have evolved over the past 40 years as well, opening up their own markets etc... and while they will be happy make a trade deal, the UK will find it does not hold remotely close the sway they held over 40 years ago.

On top of that many of those countries saw the UK as their gateway to Europe, that will no longer be the case and so the dynamics change as well.

steddyeddy · 25-08-2017 08:10PM

The EU have responded to the UK's border proposals as "magical thinking." I can't see trade talks happening yet.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/25/uk-accused-of-magical-thinking-over-brexit-plan-for-irish-border

Capt'n Midnight · 25-08-2017 08:15PM

The UK paper on Data is interesting.

It doesn't mention that David Davis won a case against the UK government in the European Court of Justice over general and indiscriminate data retention last year.

So if the UK Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union doesn't trust his own government over new powers like the snoopers charter , why should the EU trust them enough to share data ?

Capt'n Midnight · 25-08-2017 08:23PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The EU have responded to the UK's border proposals as "magical thinking." I can't see trade talks happening yet.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/25/uk-accused-of-magical-thinking-over-brexit-plan-for-irish-border

You can't have a magical invisible border without sharing data and the UK is diverging from the EU over privacy not to mention the prospect of sharing with the US.

Link in that article UK faces €2bn fine over Chinese imports scam, say EU investigators

France, Germany, Spain and Italy are estimated to have lost a combined €3.2bn from 2013 to 2016 in VAT revenues, as a result of British failures in handling imports at its ports.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-08-2017 08:33PM

Not really news, this is just the EU having to explain the initial position all over again. So we are a long way from trade talks.

UK warned not to use NI peace process as Brexit bargaining chip

According to the phased approach to the negotiations, agreed by all 27 governments in their Negotiating Guidelines in April, the EU will only get into the future relationship once they have confidence that Britain will agree to meeting its financial obligations on withdrawal, to ensuring the rights of EU citizens living in the UK (and vice versa) and the issue of the Irish border.

solodeogloria · 25-08-2017 08:45PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not really news, this is just the EU having to explain the initial position all over again. So we are a long way from trade talks.

UK warned not to use NI peace process as Brexit bargaining chip

Good evening!

The thing is the British government were right about this. The scheduling doesn't make sense. The EU know this also. You cannot address the Northern Ireland border without discussing trade and customs.

The schedule is an attempted way for the EU to have an upper hand. Of course the UK should call this out for what it is and push for a dealing of these issues. This is reasonable and Davis highlighted it before the talks began.

Monday will certainly be interesting. The EU need to understand that the UK won't be staying in the EU by the back door. The discussion now is about a new relationship for the future.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

steddyeddy · 25-08-2017 09:10PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not really news, this is just the EU having to explain the initial position all over again. So we are a long way from trade talks.

UK warned not to use NI peace process as Brexit bargaining chip

It's pretty disgusting the way they have to be warned not to endanger hard won peace in order to get a better trade deal.

Alun · 25-08-2017 09:28PM

My wife was conducting some phone interviews this afternoon for a high level software project management position and some of the applicants were EU citizens currently ion the UK. Three guesses what their motivation was for wanting to leave the UK?

blanch152 · 25-08-2017 09:31PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

The thing is the British government were right about this. The scheduling doesn't make sense. The EU know this also. You cannot address the Northern Ireland border without discussing trade and customs.

The schedule is an attempted way for the EU to have an upper hand. Of course the UK should call this out for what it is and push for a dealing of these issues. This is reasonable and Davis highlighted it before the talks began.

Monday will certainly be interesting. The EU need to understand that the UK won't be staying in the EU by the back door. The discussion now is about a new relationship for the future.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Oh, the UK should call this out for what it is!!!

You know my teenage son tries to call me out on something at home, then I remind him who pays the bills and he quietens down. He certainly has more sense than the Brexiteers. At the end of the day, the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

solodeogloria · 25-08-2017 09:35PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, the UK should call this out for what it is!!!

You know my teenage son tries to call me out on something at home, then I remind him who pays the bills and he quietens down. He certainly has more sense than the Brexiteers. At the end of the day, the UK needs the EU more than the EU needs the UK.

Good evening!

And remind me, who is paying the bill here? Or rather, who has paid the bill during the last 40 odd years of membership? It isn't the EU from what I understand.

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

This is why the discussions need to progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

steddyeddy · 25-08-2017 09:38PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

And remind me, who is paying the bill here? Or rather, who has paid the bill during the last 40 odd years of membership? It isn't the EU from what I understand.

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

This is why the discussions need to progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Well the EU has. In terms of benefits anyway. Access to the single market pretty much built Britain's service economy.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-08-2017 09:38PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

The thing is the British government were right about this. The scheduling doesn't make sense. The EU know this also. You cannot address the Northern Ireland border without discussing trade and customs.

The schedule is an attempted way for the EU to have an upper hand. Of course the UK should call this out for what it is and push for a dealing of these issues. This is reasonable and Davis highlighted it before the talks began.

Monday will certainly be interesting. The EU need to understand that the UK won't be staying in the EU by the back door. The discussion now is about a new relationship for the future.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The UK wrote Article 50.
The UK triggered Article 50.
They knew that the EU isn't as money mad as they are.
They knew back in April just how serious the EU were about sorting out the leaving before the trade deals.

The UK position papers are delusional and still haven't moved much from "have our cake and eat it".

An Ciarraioch · 25-08-2017 10:46PM

To give a historical dimension to sterling's current weakness, the old Irish punt would now be worth £1.17 sterling, with the current euro exchange rate multiplied by the fixed entry rate of 1.27 euro to the old currency - back in the day, even the punt exceeding parity was noteworthy, so the euro doing so would be unprecedented.

Junkyard Tom · 25-08-2017 10:57PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

The point being made is that the UK is in danger of suffering far more economic damage than the EU will. There'll still be close to half-a-billion people living in the EU including a number of the World's largest economies (Germany exports three times as much stuff as the UK). Then there's the UK Britain England.

One possible benefit that will come from all this is that Britain will learn to accept its position as a second tier power and perhaps the Rule Britannia idiots, that seem to have so much influence, will be eternally discredited as the fantasists they are.

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 11:05PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

The thing is the British government were right about this. The scheduling doesn't make sense.

Then why did the U.K. agree to the schedule in the first place.

solodeogloria wrote: »

The EU need to understand that the UK won't be staying in the EU by the back door.

But that is exactly what they are trying to do. They either go or they reapply for membership. The days of the special opt out/in for the U.K. are now over and they need to realize that.

solodeogloria wrote: »

The discussion now is about a new relationship for the future.

No at this stage, you'll find that EU will continue to require concentration to remain as agreed on the exit agreement.

ArmaniJeanss · 25-08-2017 11:05PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

And remind me, who is paying the bill here? Or rather, who has paid the bill during the last 40 odd years of membership? It isn't the EU from what I understand.

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

This is why the discussions need to progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

'Partnership' makes it sound like equals, a meeting of two great powerhouse blocs to decide their future. That it's something like the great JFK/Krushchev meetings of the 60s. Its an attitude I see repeated over various UK politic fora (not to mention the comments section of the newspapers online versions).
Rightly or wrongly the EU actually sees the UKs negotiating position as maybe something of a level above that of say Albania, which I don't think enough people in the UK realise yet.

Jim2007 · 25-08-2017 11:27PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The point being made is that the UK is in danger of suffering far more economic damage than the EU will.

I don't think they appreciate the extent of it. My wife was involved this morning in the planning kick off to move their U.K. data center to Poland by the end of Sept. 2018.

Leonard Hofstadter · 26-08-2017 12:09AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I said it before and I said it again; the UK hasn't educated its young people with a realistic sense of Britain's place in the world.

I think that's very unfair, a majority of under 45s voted to remain especially under 30s are very much pro remain. Not one of my (under 30) English friends thought leaving the EU was a good idea, and it is the younger generation that is going to suffer bigtime from the stupidity of their elders.

The younger generation ARE very much clued in with how the modern world works, it's the old ones that have the colonial mindset and still believe in Rule Britannia and Britain can get whatever it wants simply because it is Britain etc.

Anyway, Sterling is now less than €1.08 as I write, I'd say at the current rate it won't be long before we see the currencies hitting parity to be honest.

blanch152 · 26-08-2017 12:28AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

And remind me, who is paying the bill here? Or rather, who has paid the bill during the last 40 odd years of membership? It isn't the EU from what I understand.

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

This is why the discussions need to progress.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The benefits to the UK Exchequer of access for the City of London to the EU in terms of financial services has more than made up for any level of net contribution by the UK.

The UK is not going to get access to financial passporting without serious concessions, not just financial but also in terms of the ECJ, free movement and the customs union.

solodeogloria · 26-08-2017 09:36AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

'Partnership' makes it sound like equals, a meeting of two great powerhouse blocs to decide their future. That it's something like the great JFK/Krushchev meetings of the 60s. Its an attitude I see repeated over various UK politic fora (not to mention the comments section of the newspapers online versions).
Rightly or wrongly the EU actually sees the UKs negotiating position as maybe something of a level above that of say Albania, which I don't think enough people in the UK realise yet.

Good morning!

I think you might have won the prize for the most ridiculous comment on the thread with this comparison.

In any case, I'm not particularly worried. I'm hopeful for good steps forward over the next three months of meetings.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 26-08-2017 09:42AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

.

That aside, there's plenty of reasons why the UK needs continued partnership with the EU, and there are plenty of reasons why the EU needs continued partnership with the UK.

I'm divorcing you, I never liked you and you were never any good for me but I assume we'll still be friends with benefits and I'll get access to the children I like.

Brexit discussion thread II

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