Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Non book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

False Prophet · 18-08-2017 01:12AM

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

I still can't see Cersei helping fight the Night King even when she sees the wight. Jamie on the other HAND more then likely will and probably head back up North with Jon. Can't see anyone major being killed off this seson other then Littlefinger. Posssibility of The Hound vs Zombie Mountain for the final episode I hope. His conversation with Tormund about Brienne was hilarious.

Why they need Cersei anyway? Cersei most have lost most of her land army already. She has left the ships and enough maybe to protect king landing for a bit.

Surely it would have made more sense for king of the north to say ill bend the knee if you just fly up to the north with your dragons and if you happen to see an army of the death you destroy them.

Even now as only real threat is via water , why doesnt she move her Unsullied to the wall and move the Dothraki to the rear to defend.

18-08-2017 02:28AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

I never criticised the earlier seasons for pacing. I criticised them for stupidity, and it was never as stupid as it was this episode. And yes, I could barely watch this episode, I skipped about half of it (but I was glad I didn't miss out on the Giantsbane conversation with the Hound).

Mind you, the Spoils of War (two episodes ago) was great. Really top notch, the best that they have achieved in multiple seasons.

I'd rank this episode as about the same as Avengers 2 Age of Ultron. Made no sense, but lots of action and a villain that looked the part.

Why keep watching it? I hope that they can get back to as good as Spoils of War. I've also followed this series for several years now and sort of feel like seeing how it ends. I feel that this season is sort of spoiling the book Winds of Winter, but that's got no guarantee of ever being published. If it were to be published in a month's time, with guarantee that GRR would actually finish the book series, I'd probably just finish with the TV series altogether at this point.

I wouldn't consider contributing money towards it, in much the same way that I wouldn't pay for Alien 3, Godfather 3, or Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. If I trip over them online I might take a gander and bitch about how they are crap (and those aforementioned films are absolute sh*te that don't give a damn about fans of their respective series), but I'd hardly go out of my way to watch them.

Although I suppose you could always say that something like Alien VS Predator Requiem is actually a great film and any complaints are null and void because it's fantasy sci-fi

Don't feed the trolls?

biggebruv · 18-08-2017 06:30AM

matrim wrote: »

That was the biggest problem with that scene for me. All they needed was the hound to say something like "I'm sick of those c*nting ugly c*unts starting at us for 2 days" before throwing the rock.

but why we get the sense that time has passed by the ice turning solid again why does it need to be said when we can clearly see it?

CruelCoin · 18-08-2017 08:13AM

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

Can't see anyone major being killed off this seson other then Littlefinger.

Dunno.
Arya is losing the likable edge. Don't put it past littlefinger to bump her off.

The whole "Hi!" "Bye" thing with Uncle Benji was a really lazy way to kill off that loose end.

matrim · 18-08-2017 08:39AM

biggebruv wrote: »

but why we get the sense that time has passed by the ice turning solid again why does it need to be said when we can clearly see it?

For the most part I agree. To me it felt like they were there for at least a day. But look at the other responses to this thread. A change to one line would have probably shut up most of the responses of "fast travel, how did she get there in an hour"

threein99 · 18-08-2017 08:53AM

velo.2010 wrote: »

I think we can all agree that the ravens in Westeros are on EPO and steroids!

The night king is definitely on PEDS with that javelin arm

Mousewar · 18-08-2017 09:01AM

I'll always defend GOT. One of the best shows ever on TV. But it is amazing how a great show can be so undermined by a single **** storyline (this whole risking literally everything to go get a bag of bones BS). That's two episodes it's ruined so far. Hopefully they move past it quickly.

TCDStudent1 · 18-08-2017 09:13AM

JamboMac wrote: »

Who wouldn't, in all fairness she did save him, but it feels like these 2 are gonna get together and create the baby that danyres thinks she can't have.

The prince that was promised

TheDoc · 18-08-2017 09:18AM

Thoroughly enjoyed it, brilliant episode. Will definitely re-watch this on Monday.

I'm only a fan via TV and never read the books (tbh tried the first and found it incredibly difficult to read and boring really) and while I can easily handle and enjoy high brow stuff, political moving and underhandedness etc., GoT has really suffered for me now having more battles and large scale action.

A lot of friends of mine that are book fans claim I don't "get" what it is, but sorry I do. Yeah cool its all lovely and underhanded and scheming and blah blah, but this is still a realm and world of fantasy and fiction, where it doesn't hurt through the medium of TV/film to really show and explore large battles or great battles. I think it's noticeable for me I've enjoyed the show more and more, the less and less George RR Martin has been involved. Weird for longterm book fans, but maybe makes more sense to just TV fans?

This season has probably been a real standout for me and the most enjoyable I can remember.

There is a kinda bookshop/dealz shop in Omni and it has a few branches that do the entire book collection for 30 quid on sale, so I plan to actually pick these up and read the books to see what the fuss is about there. I see Easons sell it for €91, so seems a right bargain

18-08-2017 09:53AM

biggebruv wrote: »

but why we get the sense that time has passed by the ice turning solid again why does it need to be said when we can clearly see it?

I'm gonna have to rewatch because this went completely above my head. I didn't realise the dead stopped because of broken ice. I thought they intentionally trapped them to lure the dragons.

errlloyd · 18-08-2017 09:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm gonna have to rewatch because this went completely above my head. I didn't realise the dead stopped because of broken ice. I thought they intentionally trapped them to lure the dragons.

Yeah I would have liked if they had basically squeezed the entire film "300" into that episode. An Island on a Frozen lake was an unrealistic way for them to hold off for the days required to get support. But if they had been holed up on the far side of some narrow pass or valley they could have had fights and hold offs for a few days.

Staplor · 18-08-2017 10:15AM

Just a bit of speculation here, Jon and Dany are going to get together, we have a fair idea of that. She can't have kids we are told that. But didn't Jon get his rocks off before he took the black.......

....so is there a mini Jon knocking about Westeros?

I was wrong later posts informed me.

pickarooney · 18-08-2017 10:18AM

Mousewar wrote: »

I'll always defend GOT. One of the best shows ever on TV. But it is amazing how a great show can be so undermined by a single **** storyline (this whole risking literally everything to go get a bag of bones BS). That's two episodes it's ruined so far. Hopefully they move past it quickly.

I wouldn't say it ruined the episodes but there was surely a better plot device available to
- bring these secondary characters together
- convince Dany to go have a look north
- give the Night King a dragon

A bigger island with a cave or a rock platform across to it might have been more plausible. The whole 'they're screwed, they're saved' schtick was stupid, but entertaining, but also a kind of betrayal of the spirit of GoT.

homerun_homer · 18-08-2017 10:25AM

flazio wrote: »

Also, I reckon Qyburn is a stronger influence then we are seeing on screen.
I reckon Cersei pregnancy is fake and it's Qyburns idea.

When Jamie enters the room to see Cersai and Qyburn is there, Qyburn says hushed to her "I can give you something for it", or something to that effect. Jamie then is suspicious as to why he is there. The pregnancy could be legit if Qyburn is offering her something like morning sickness meds or some dastardly thing.

buswankers · 18-08-2017 10:29AM

False Prophet wrote: »

Pure speculation:
Littlefinger who never says anything without a reason mentioned that Brienne is honour bound to protect both Sansa and Arya.
So by sending Brienne + her loyal servant guy away it means that there is no-one to stop Sansa doing something to Arya (lock her up etc what littlefinger wants/plans)

But its all a bluff from Sansa and she wants littlefinger to think that she is listening to him and she is actual playing him.

Ahhhh now that definitely makes sense!

....... · 18-08-2017 10:31AM

This post has been deleted.

Buford T Justice · 18-08-2017 10:35AM

I wonder is there anything to the significance that Ellaria Sand is still wallowing in the dungeon in kings landing?

If she had no significance to the plot, why wasn't she just killed off?

J. Marston · 18-08-2017 10:41AM

Staplor wrote: »

Just a bit of speculation here, Jon and Dany are going to get together, we have a fair idea of that. She can't have kids we are told that. But didn't Jon get his rocks off before he took the black.......

....so is there a mini Jon knocking about Westeros?

Ygritte popped Jon's cherry and unless her ashes gave birth, it's unlikely.

Harambe · 18-08-2017 10:43AM

Buford T Justice wrote: »

I wonder is there anything to the significance that Ellaria Sand is still wallowing in the dungeon in kings landing?

If she had no significance to the plot, why wasn't she just killed off?

I'm not sure we'll ever see Ellaria again. I think the purpose of torturing her and not killing her off was just to show how cruel and evil Cersei is.

buswankers · 18-08-2017 10:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm gonna have to rewatch because this went completely above my head. I didn't realise the dead stopped because of broken ice. I thought they intentionally trapped them to lure the dragons.

See that would make more sense as at the end of the episode they're seen emerging from underwater with the dragon in chains :rolleyes:

But lots of them fell into the water when the ice split so I do think that its that they're afraid of water rather than some intelligent idea to lure the dragons.

muddypaws · 18-08-2017 10:54AM

buswankers wrote: »

See that would make more sense as at the end of the episode they're seen emerging from underwater with the dragon in chains :rolleyes:

But lots of them fell into the water when the ice split so I do think that its that they're afraid of water rather than some intelligent idea to lure the dragons.

Yeah, that premise was set up in Hard Home, once Jon and the rest were on the water, they were safe.

team_actimel · 18-08-2017 11:12AM

J. Marston wrote: »

Ygritte popped Jon's cherry and unless her ashes gave birth, it's unlikely.

This post made me laugh.

It makes me happy that Jon and Ygritte are together in real life.

D3sperado · 18-08-2017 12:07PM

marcus001 wrote: »

The problem with the teleportation in this episode is that it wasn't just skipping travel, it was physically impossible given the events that were ongoing at the time.

Jon and co were sitting on that island for at most a day (if they intended it to be two or three days they should have found a way to let us know that time had passed) and in that time Gendry ran back to Eastwatch, sent a raven to Dany, Dany flew to the island and saved them. All in the time it took a lake of ice to freeze over again (stronger than it was before they got there). It really wouldn't have been hard to make it all make sense to the viewer, it's just pure laziness on the part of the writers.

Someone did the maths on Reddit. It would have taken roughly 4 days from Gendry starting his run until Dany arriving with the Dragons (based on assumptions of how fast ravens and dragons can fly using homing pigeons as a baseline). It would have roughly taken that long for the ice to refreeze to a depth that would allow an army of undead soldiers to walk across it. Whether the Fellowship of the Wight could have survived for 4 days on the island without freezing to death or starving is questionable to say the least, but not entirely outside the realms of possibility.

They could have shown days passing with them on the island and the things they did to survive, maybe building a snow shelter or creating fires. They could also be shown to have had some limited rations inside their furs, but all of this stuff takes screen time for no ultimate reason. Would it make the scene any more enjoyable? Probably not, it would happen the exact same way but we would have had 5 or 10 minutes of filler in the middle waiting for Dany to arrive. They could also drop a scene of Sam in the Citedel talking to a Maester about how the messenger ravens of Westeros are a special species from the days of magic a la Valyerian steel and nobody knows how they can fly five times faster than normal ravens (as the same speed as dragons) but its super important that a colony is always kept in the Citadel for breeding purposes.

All this stuff takes up screen time though and doesn't change the outcome of how the scenes will actually happen. There are much better things to criticise about D&D's style/approach than timeline stuff (such as the sheer stupidity of the whole capture a wight plan, the stupidity of the Arya/Sansa stuff, their butchering of the Dorne story, etc. etc.).

marcus001 · 18-08-2017 12:51PM

D3sperado wrote: »

Someone did the maths on Reddit. It would have taken roughly 4 days from Gendry starting his run until Dany arriving with the Dragons (based on assumptions of how fast ravens and dragons can fly using homing pigeons as a baseline). It would have roughly taken that long for the ice to refreeze to a depth that would allow an army of undead soldiers to walk across it. Whether the Fellowship of the Wight could have survived for 4 days on the island without freezing to death or starving is questionable to say the least, but not entirely outside the realms of possibility.

They could have shown days passing with them on the island and the things they did to survive, maybe building a snow shelter or creating fires. They could also be shown to have had some limited rations inside their furs, but all of this stuff takes screen time for no ultimate reason. Would it make the scene any more enjoyable? Probably not, it would happen the exact same way but we would have had 5 or 10 minutes of filler in the middle waiting for Dany to arrive. They could also drop a scene of Sam in the Citedel talking to a Maester about how the messenger ravens of Westeros are a special species from the days of magic a la Valyerian steel and nobody knows how they can fly five times faster than normal ravens (as the same speed as dragons) but its super important that a colony is always kept in the Citadel for breeding purposes.

All this stuff takes up screen time though and doesn't change the outcome of how the scenes will actually happen. There are much better things to criticise about D&D's style/approach than timeline stuff (such as the sheer stupidity of the whole capture a wight plan, the stupidity of the Arya/Sansa stuff, their butchering of the Dorne story, etc. etc.).

That's why I keep saying that we're getting the cliff notes of the end of the series. Those kind of scenes are important. it stops the show looking like **** that was just thrown together.

It's the equivalent of leaving an essay until the last minute. Yeah, you've got the main points in there, but it looks rushed so you get a C. This episode could have been an A+ but as it was rushed it felt like a B at best.

Daledge · 18-08-2017 01:20PM

mr_cochise wrote: »

Yet you have gone out of your way to watch it, illegally, not contributing a penny to its production, and you call it garbage!

I suppose you watched it legally?

D3sperado · 18-08-2017 02:13PM

marcus001 wrote: »

That's why I keep saying that we're getting the cliff notes of the end of the series. Those kind of scenes are important. it stops the show looking like **** that was just thrown together.

It's the equivalent of leaving an essay until the last minute. Yeah, you've got the main points in there, but it looks rushed so you get a C. This episode could have been an A+ but as it was rushed it felt like a B at best.

Oh I agree that it's really suffering from pacing and is crying out for a proper 10 episode season. I would have loved to have seen more interactions and pay-offs between characters. The Tyrion and Jamie stuff could easily have been given another 5 minutes. We didn't even get to see the reunion of Tyrion and Bronn! The Jorah and Jon stuff was pretty good, but with another couple of minutes they could have talked about Sam saving Jorah's life.

A couple of additional scenes debating strategy and coming to a more logical reason for the trip beyond the Wall would have been good too. Like it would have been easy to add a scene of Sam sending a Raven to say that the Maesters (who are very influential) needed proof to believe and then they would take up the cause to convince both the Lords and smallfolk of Westeros about the threat and also devote their vast resources to researching ways to stop the WW. That would have been a much better reason to go North than to try and convince Cersei, which is literally the dumbest plan on the show to date.

I just think stuff like that would be a better use of time than them trying to explain away timelines. I still think they are doing pretty ok with what they have (a few notable exceptions aside) given that GRRM basically screwed them by not finishing the books.

siochain · 18-08-2017 02:38PM

Bacchus wrote: »

Totally agree. I mean, we've had 6 seasons of character building and long character arcs (which was great of course). I don't think I'd be alone in growing tired of some characters paths as they have nowhere else to go. This (and next) season is the climax of the show. This is everything the first 6 seasons was building towards. Why would you want to bog it down in MORE character building and long walks around Westeros. We know who the characters are, we know their motivations, their history, it's time to hurtle towards the conclusion of this story.

This season is the "episode 9" of GoT seasons and it's thrilling.

fully agree this season is EPIC only issue I have is waiting for the next episode to come out

Doola · 18-08-2017 03:09PM

Do we know, or does anyone know what the ratio of whitewalkers to wights is? I havent watched the previous big WW battles in ages, but usually we see the Night King and his 5-6 generals standing around and thats about it. There's thousands of wights. Going by what happened in this episode - kill the WW's and all the "made" wights are obliterated.
Wouldn't that mean then, that Jon et al would only need to target killing the WW's, and the wights would be wiped out in parallel?
Or are there hundreds/thousands of WW's and I'm just mis-remembering?

Secondly - there was SO much dialogue in this episode about children and succession lines (even Jorah to Jon about passing the sword onto his children), it sounds to me like there's definitely a Dany-Jon saviour sprog on the way.

maudgonner · 18-08-2017 03:21PM

Doola wrote: »

Secondly - there was SO much dialogue in this episode about children and succession lines (even Jorah to Jon about passing the sword onto his children), it sounds to me like there's definitely a Dany-Jon saviour sprog on the way.

I definitely think that's building to something but I'm wondering if there's a different angle to it. It's pure speculation, so I'll spoiler it.

I think Daenerys will die and Jon will be her successor. I can't see the show endorsing incest to that degree, I think the ickyness factor would be too much.

GavRedKing · 18-08-2017 03:33PM

Another thing I was hoping to see where Giants in that battle scene, we know the night king has some in his army but there was no sign of them anywhere.

Throw in Giants, a Dragon and an army of undead, things are looking pretty sweet for the Winter Olympic Javelin gold medallist night king.

Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Non book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

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