Best tactic for objecting to planning application

seaders · 16-08-2017 11:16AM #1

I live on one of the kinda country roads beside Howth in Dublin, and we're in one of the smaller houses on the road. Next door to us is a big-ish plot, with 1 big old house there,

http://i.imgur.com/0cGJHRB.png

What they're *planning* on building there is four new three storey, four bedroom houses (they state that they're only three bedroom, but in the plans they call the top floor / room a "coffee room"...),

http://i.imgur.com/zhHccyC.png

We've had a few meetings from people on the street, and most of us are fairly astonished at what's being proposed, with basically everyone on both sides of the house, both sides of the road, and locals all against the proposals.

Some other renders with how they're planning to look at the
Front - http://i.imgur.com/H8d7jAr.jpg
Back - http://i.imgur.com/Oc66oXQ.jpg

It's not only the overall proposal that's gotten peoples' backs up, they've "announced" the plans in a terribly sneaky method. Currently there's only 1 house on the plot, and only 1 plot, but in the new plans, they've split the plot into 2. On the first plot, they're only building 1 house, where the old house is, which I don't think anyone would have objected to. But on the second plot, they're building the other 3.

If you search the database, and find the first one (and stop your search), you'd only see 1 house being proposed, where the old house currently is,

http://i.imgur.com/989t4Yb.png

I've never objected to planning permission before, and though some others on the road have, I'd love to find out if there's any extra stuff we can do to highlight how "off" this feels, and why we feel so strongly. This feels a really, really over the top, crazy proposal, completely against the keeping of the area (rest of the houses on the road, even the big ones, are only 2 storey), and I'm really up for the "fight" to scale this development back.

ForstalDave · 16-08-2017 11:20AM

Is the notice for the second plot view-able to the public from the site?
If not then its not a valid application and should be reported to the council as such

mrcheez · 16-08-2017 11:20AM

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/planning-objections

They're one of the few council departments that seem to do their job properly unlike a lot of the civil service in my experience.

I got a problem sorted this month when a development was put up that broke one of the requirements for the permission. Took about 1 month to sort as that's the allowed time for the other party to reply to the objection.

Angry bird · 16-08-2017 11:30AM

It's a balance between much needed housing and not unduly impacting on existing residential amenity. Check the county development plan and section 're infill housing or backland and tailor your objection on this. Obviously dodginess over site notice or development description should be included.

seaders · 16-08-2017 11:32AM

ForstalDave wrote: »

Is the notice for the second plot view-able to the public from the site?
If not then its not a valid application and should be reported to the council as such

I've just 100% what the situation is on the house, they have a planning proposal on each of the two gate pillars, with no building reference IDs on either. We needed to scour the building database to find all the plans details.

Angry bird · 16-08-2017 11:38AM

seaders wrote: »

ForstalDave wrote: »

Is the notice for the second plot view-able to the public from the site?
If not then its not a valid application and should be reported to the council as such

I've just 100% what the situation is on the house, they have a planning proposal on each of the two gate pillars, with no building reference IDs on either. We needed to scour the building database to find all the plans details.

Site notice does not include a reference number, the Council give it one after it's been received.

seaders · 16-08-2017 11:46AM

Angry bird wrote: »

It's a balance between much needed housing and not unduly impacting on existing residential amenity. Check the county development plan and section 're infill housing or backland and tailor your objection on this. Obviously dodginess over site notice or development description should be included.

Only thing of relevant from

http://www.fingal.ie/search/searchresults/?q=infill

gives
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/planning-and-buildings/development-plans-and-consultations/fingal-development-plan/
->
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/media/2.4.1.M%20Sheet10.pdf

(which isn't really relevant

)

And backland,

http://www.fingal.ie/search/searchresults/?q=backland

Gives nothing.

Or would I be better checking the more general, http://www.dublincity.ie and http://www.pleanala.ie ? Again, I'm *very* new to this, so not completely up on all the terminology.

Metric Tensor · 16-08-2017 11:49AM

The best "tactic" in any planning observation is honesty. Planners see observations every day and can smell a bullsh!tter as quickly as the rest of us.

Write an easy to read letter (i.e. use bullet points) and explain the parts of the proposal that you think are inappropriate. Even better if you can link to paragraphs or sections in the local development plan to which the proposals do not adhere.

I would definitely draw the attention of the planner to the fact that there are simultaneous, side-by-side applications from the same applicant. As the applicant knows he is doing this his streetscape for the house standing alone is not a fair representation.

Angry bird might help me with this but I thought there was specific rules that prevented applicants from sub-dividing their applications into multiple small simultaneous ones? (obviously phasing is a different issue) I might be corrected on this.

Mellor · 16-08-2017 11:56AM

seaders wrote: »

I've just 100% what the situation is on the house, they have a planning proposal on each of the two gate pillars, with no building reference IDs on either. We needed to scour the building database to find all the plans details.

They have to put the notice up in order to apply. They only get a reference after they've lodged.

It's also completely standard to split separate buildings into separate applications. The multi-unit application will probably take longer to get approved no point holding up the single unit.

seaders · 16-08-2017 12:32PM

Metric Tensor wrote: »

The best "tactic" in any planning observation is honesty. Planners see observations every day and can smell a bullsh!tter as quickly as the rest of us.

Yeah, we definitely want to go the way of honesty as much as possible, but also highlight how... "astonished" we are, tbh. I mean,

The ground area here is fairly low as it is, liable to flooding, and they're proposing to sink the new houses lower than the current house / plot, even though other developments have raised their developments (we think this is actually a rouse to get the height of the houses approved, then during the build, don't sink down as low as proposed, or even do raise it)
There is issues with the sewerage on the street, especially when the tide is high and there's heavy rainfall, and they're proposing 4 new houses on that same line
The traffic in the area can already be absolutely dreadful, *and* there's quite a bit of foot-traffic, and they're proposing 3 new driveways (4 in total, with the old one being redeveloped)
Every other house on the road, even the really big ones, are only 2 storey, and their look and design is in keeping with the area (more than a bit of a "country" feel to them), yet these look like a hotel / apartment development from abroad - http://i.imgur.com/H8d7jAr.jpg
For the neighbouring houses on either side, with the size of these new ones, they'd completely take the sunlight before afternoon from the back garden of the house the left, and the sunlight from the evening from the back garden to the right (which they even show in the renders - http://i.imgur.com/Oc66oXQ.jpg)

Gumbo · 16-08-2017 12:47PM

mrcheez wrote: »

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/planning-objections

They're one of the few council departments that seem to do their job properly unlike a lot of the civil service in my experience.

I got a problem sorted this month when a development was put up that broke one of the requirements for the permission. Took about 1 month to sort as that's the allowed time for the other party to reply to the objection.

Your mixing up planning decisions and planning enforcement sections. Both totally separate and independent of each other. I assume you originally meant planning enforcement as opposed to what you posted.

737max · 16-08-2017 12:53PM

while not everything in the world comes down to money it should be evident that if they achieve higher density then the value of adjoining sites including yours should increse accordingly safeguarding the value of your asset. The proposed houses would need to be pretty horrific to look at to outweigh that.

I'm aware of a road where the houses used all be very modest single story and all these houses as they come up for sale are being torn down for two storey properties in their place. The houses whcih are tear down houses are worth more than if they were being purchased for habitation in their current state.

seaders · 16-08-2017 01:01PM

737max wrote: »

while not everything in the world comes down to money it should be evident that if they achieve higher density then the value of adjoining sites including yours should increse accordingly safeguarding the value of your asset. The proposed houses would need to be pretty horrific to look at to outweigh that.

I'm aware of a road where the houses used all be very modest single story and all these houses as they come up for sale are being torn down for two storey properties in their place. The houses whcih are tear down houses are worth more than if they were being purchased for habitation in their current state.

Nah, I don't look at it like that at all. At some stage we *might* redevelop this house (or sell it for that purpose), but while we're here, the absolute best feature of this place is the back garden, the greenery there, and the sunlight we get back there, from about 10-11am, till about 8 o'clock in the Summer. This development would take away about half of that, and where we had that before, we'd have (what we consider a monstrosity) three storey block right on our fence. This thing would dwarf this house, take away light from one entire side, overload some of the services of the area (sewerage and road), and just in general really would be totally out of touch with what's here already.

*If* it were a new two storey house, where the current house is, even a huge one, I don't think any of us would have any objection. Hell, even if it was 2, there's definitely space for 2, and it's a big enough plot to handle 2 houses, with land around both house. But 4? In the manner they've proposed? No way, I don't think this would do anything for the area, *at all*.

737max · 16-08-2017 01:07PM

I don't think they'll deny planning based on what you describe there in the last post.
Do you have a well or something which will be un-useable as a result of the new development.
Our problem with the new neighbour(near twenty years ago) wasn't that he built a modest house but that he built very tall sheds for his livestock on his 1 acre plot which couldn't support the animals. The animals are gone, the sheds remain. Ho hum.

Angry bird · 16-08-2017 01:16PM

Post 10 is your objection. I don't see anything as to why the two applications cannot be legally accepted and probably for the reason a previous poster alluded to. Yep keep looking in that section of the development plan to see what best matches and then add on to objection.

seaders · 16-08-2017 01:49PM

Angry bird wrote: »

Post 10 is your objection. I don't see anything as to why the two applications cannot be legally accepted and probably for the reason a previous poster alluded to. Yep keep looking in that section of the development plan to see what best matches and then add on to objection.

Will do.

Angry bird wrote: »

...
Check the county development plan and section 're infill housing or backland and tailor your objection on this.
...

Any pointers as to where I can find that info? Will I need to drop physically drop into one of the Dublin offices, or is there somewhere online I'd be able to find it?

Mellor · 16-08-2017 10:05PM

seaders wrote: »

Will do.

Any pointers as to where I can find that info? Will I need to drop physically drop into one of the Dublin offices, or is there somewhere online I'd be able to find it?

Here you go;

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/planning/county-development-plan/county-development-plan-2016-2022

gctest50 · 16-08-2017 10:19PM

seaders wrote: »

Nah, I don't look at it like that at all. At some stage we *might* redevelop this house (or sell it for that purpose), but while we're here, the absolute best feature of this place is the back garden, ...

....

Since you may be doing the exact same thing in a few years, maybe instead ask the developers about buying your place now ?

seaders · 16-08-2017 10:25PM

No. It's my home, where I live. After being in apartments for years (especially after a move being forced on us, after a landlord went bankrupt which was nearly too much stress to handle), I'd *love* to just live here for a bit.

I also overall disagree with that type of development in these types of areas. If it were 1 house, or 2, once they weren't crazy, I'd be more than ok with it. The plans as they are are crazy, imo.

jmBuildExt · 17-08-2017 08:30AM

Mellor wrote: »

Here you go;

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/planning/county-development-plan/county-development-plan-2016-2022

Did he not say he's living in howth?? They moved Howth to the northside since you left for sydney

You need this one OP.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/planning-and-buildings/development-plans-and-consultations/fingaldevelopmentplan2017-2023/

seaders · 17-08-2017 11:50AM

jmBuildExt wrote: »

Did he not say he's living in howth?? They moved Howth to the northside since you left for sydney

You need this one OP.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/planning-and-buildings/development-plans-and-consultations/fingaldevelopmentplan2017-2023/

Awesome! Just skimmed through that "Written Statement" there (my brain and eyes are now quite tired...), and found a good 10 points from that to base our objections on. Many many thanks.

Dardania · 17-08-2017 12:04PM

OP: What would you be happy with?
You mention 2 storey houses? And perhaps if more in character with rest of area?

seaders · 12-09-2017 05:14PM

Hey guys, just wanted to come back with an update (for the 1st planning application, the demolition of the old house, and the build of the first 3 storey house). It's been rejected. Seemingly fairly harshly, too.

http://i.imgur.com/OaotGYj.jpg

Still waiting on a response for the 2nd build, but with how that first response is, I'm fully expecting something similar for the 2nd (the other 3 3 storey houses).

Thanks so much on the tip to use the Development Plan Angry bird, and the links to said plans, jmBuildExt (and Mellor, even if they were for the wrong county council!).

Needless to say I'm absolutely delighted with this turn out, as I initially stated, we're not against the redevelopment of the area, but the plans that were proposed were absolutely nuts for this area, and obviously the council agrees.

Thanks again guys!

Best tactic for objecting to planning application

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