“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber” memo goes viral, usual suspects outraged

jackofalltrades · 14-08-2017 09:57PM

kylith wrote: »

Google's 'positive discrimination' these days will pave the way for more girls and young women to see programming as a potential career in the future.

While I agree that hiring a person to do a job solely because of their gender is generally not a good thing, doing things like running women-only events can only attract more women to the career, and that is a good thing.

Every time some is positively discriminated for, someone is also negatively discriminated against.
Which creates resentment amongst people and rightly so.
It seems odd that people who are so driven to end discrimination want to use it as a tool against others.
It would make you seriously question their motivations.

By all means encourage women into IT, but it shouldn't be done by disadvantaging men.

Bob24 · 14-08-2017 10:35PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Every time some is positively discriminated for, someone is also negatively discriminated against.
Which creates resentment amongst people and rightly so.

On top of that it also tends to cast doubts over the abilities of individual members of the group it is trying to help.

Lets say a woman is definitely the most qualified applicant for a job and logically gets hired. If the company has positive discrimination policies in place and the woman is joining a male dominated business function, her new colleagues will tend to wonder whether she was hired because she was the best applicant or because the manager of the team needed a woman to reach their positive discrimination quota (which is totally unfair to her as she was indeed the best person for the job, but on the other hand is a valid question to ask because it could be the case that she was hired to meet quotas and her colleagues don't know that as the process will tend to be secretive to make sure no-one can find out).

It was a while ago and at the time I was a bit too young to be fully intellectually equipped to understand these things, but I actually very clearly remember that specific issue being dealt with in an episode the TV series ER whereby a black doctor makes a point of saying he didn't thick the afro-american box on his med school application as he wanted to make sure he was judged by the same standard as everyone else so that there is no doubt about his abilities. I think I remember it well after circa 20 years because at the time this thing sounded so alien to me: from a European teenager's perspective it sounded unthinkable that admission requirements could vary depending on someone's skin colour. But I guess we are getting Americanised and now we have to debate about these things ...

professore · 14-08-2017 11:09PM

B0jangles wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Good question.

Could it be because women care more what others think of them than men?

What does that even mean in that context?

More men don't care about being labelled geeks than women?

professore · 14-08-2017 11:11PM

B0jangles wrote: »

professore wrote: »

It's funny that the modern US liberal viewpoint seems to be that men are bungling idiots while women are brilliant at everything, yet men and women are completely identical in every way and any challenge to that idea is sexist if a white male says it. Crazy I tells ya.

Who is saying that?

Personally I've done my best to back up anything I've said with as much data as I can find. Most of what is coming back is a mass of personal opinions which mostly seem to be of the type 'Men do X, Women do Y' as a basic and eternal truth, followed by a lot of arguing backwards from that 'fact' to justify that opinion, plus repeated instructions to 'Read the Memo'.

I'm not sure why or when a programmer working in Google became such an unassailable authority on gender representation in the tech industry?

Did you notice this is After Hours?

professore · 14-08-2017 11:22PM

Look, personally speaking, I don't believe women as a group aren't on average as capable of say programming as men are. I just think that women as a group are less interested in programming. This is not down to social conditioning. My own daughter did an excellent leaving certificate including an A in honours maths and is pursuing a biology related degree now.

I asked her why she didn't do computer science or engineering and she said it didn't interest her. This is despite having a mum who is an engineer and a dad who works in IT, and both of us always spoke positively to her about both fields. Of her high achieving female friends, they are all in fields like medicine, pharmacy and law. most of her male friends are in IT or engineering. Should they be forced to swap?

If people are honest this is replicated all over the country and indeed the world.

Why is this controversial? I don't understand.

kylith · 14-08-2017 11:37PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Every time some is positively discriminated for, someone is also negatively discriminated against.
Which creates resentment amongst people and rightly so.
It seems odd that people who are so driven to end discrimination want to use it as a tool against others.
It would make you seriously question their motivations.

By all means encourage women into IT, but it shouldn't be done by disadvantaging men.

But having, for example, women-only training days doesn't disadvantage men at all. Just because someone else gets something it doesn't mean something is taken away from you.

professore · 14-08-2017 11:49PM

kylith wrote: »

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Every time some is positively discriminated for, someone is also negatively discriminated against.
Which creates resentment amongst people and rightly so.
It seems odd that people who are so driven to end discrimination want to use it as a tool against others.
It would make you seriously question their motivations.

By all means encourage women into IT, but it shouldn't be done by disadvantaging men.

But having, for example, women-only training days doesn't disadvantage men at all. Just because someone else gets something it doesn't mean something is taken away from you.

Of course it does. Back in the old days it was men doing deals on the golf course where women weren't allowed. This is the same thing in reverse. Unless of course the training is useless.

Pero_Bueno · 15-08-2017 12:05AM

Probably linked allready, AMA on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_james_damore_ama/

Wombatman · 15-08-2017 10:00AM

Bambi wrote: »

I have a few but first lets ask the obvious questions, because the answers dictate whether or not I'll have to use finger puppets to phrase the next questions for ye

You realise that Bernie Sanders didn't run in the Presidential election?

Yes

You realise that the democratic presidential candidate is not selected by the voting public?

Yes. The delegates are elected or chosen at the state or local level, with the understanding that they will support a particular candidate at the convention. They reflect the preferences of people they represent.

This is basic enough stuff

Are you still confused?

Have you more questions or are you prepared to acknowledged how idiotic your ultraliberal references are? Liberal would have been a push. Do you know anything about the political spectrum?

Bob24 · 15-08-2017 10:23AM

Wombatman wrote: »

Are you still confused?

Have you more questions or are you prepared to acknowledged how idiotic your ultraliberal references are? Liberal would have been a push. Do you know anything about the political spectrum?

Ok let's forget "Ultra" which is just semantics and depends on where someone puts the center.

If California is not at the higher end of the spectrum, could you mention which regions of the world you think are significantly more liberal than California both in terms of economic liberalism and social liberalism?

I would feel safe to rule out all of South America, Africa, and Asia (which is enough to place California firmly on the liberal side of the spectrum on a global scale). Then we only have the Western world left which I guess is in itself a liberal engine of the world - and even within that liberal subset of the world I struggle to find a significant number of regions (if any) which you could say are clearly more liberal than California.

So I would be confident enough saying that California is at the forefront of full fledged liberalism not only in the US but also globally.

ohnonotgmail · 15-08-2017 10:24AM

professore wrote: »

Look, personally speaking, I don't believe women as a group aren't on average as capable of say programming as men are. I just think that women as a group are less interested in programming. This is not down to social conditioning. My own daughter did an excellent leaving certificate including an A in honours maths and is pursuing a biology related degree now.

I asked her why she didn't do computer science or engineering and she said it didn't interest her. This is despite having a mum who is an engineer and a dad who works in IT, and both of us always spoke positively to her about both fields. Of her high achieving female friends, they are all in fields like medicine, pharmacy and law. most of her male friends are in IT or engineering. Should they be forced to swap?

If people are honest this is replicated all over the country and indeed the world.

Why is this controversial? I don't understand.

why are you conflating not interested with not capable? They are definitely not as interested in software development as a career but those that are every bit as capable as the guys that do it.

srsly78 · 15-08-2017 11:04AM

professore wrote: »

If people are honest this is replicated all over the country and indeed the world.

No it isn't, seems to be a western thing.

kylith · 15-08-2017 12:08PM

professore wrote: »

Of course it does. Back in the old days it was men doing deals on the golf course where women weren't allowed. This is the same thing in reverse. Unless of course the training is useless.

No, it isn't.

The industry is predominantly male, so there is no need for men-only events to entice more men into it. However Google, for example, wants to open IT as a viable career path for women, who are in a minority in the industry, so there is a need for women-only events. ESPECIALLY when, as can be seen in this thread, the world is full of men saying that women are biologically unsuited to work in IT. You think many women who want to work in IT would be comfortable at training days that were full of men telling them they shouldn't be there?

If women were in a dominant position and actively conspiring to keep men out of the IT industry you'd have a point, but they're not so you don't.

silverharp · 15-08-2017 12:22PM

kylith wrote: »

If women were in a dominant position and actively conspiring to keep men out of the IT industry you'd have a point, but they're not so you don't.

Reversing what you have said, what men are conspiring to keep women out of IT?

15-08-2017 12:41PM

silverharp wrote: »

Reversing what you have said, what men are conspiring to keep women out of IT?

Sometimes this narrative is actively damaging when it comes to diversity in tech. I have worked in the industry for over 20 years. Every organisation I have worked in has been supportive of diversity and full of progressive and forward thinking people.

The truth is that if you want a stereotyupical 'bro' culture you'll find one a lot easier in the average accountancy or law firm.

The idea that there are insurmountable obstacles facing women in IT is just not really true any more. If a woman wants a career in software development she needs to learn to code. That's it. In Dublin at least decent developers remain as rare as hen's teeth and rightly or wrongly most businesses are very keen on having a decent balance of men and women on their teams.

I would hate to think that young women and girls are put off IT because they think it isn't welcoming and they will inevitably have a hard life.

kylith · 15-08-2017 12:45PM

silverharp wrote: »

Reversing what you have said, what men are conspiring to keep women out of IT?

I was mainly talking about those 'golf course meetings' that professore had brought up, but items such as this memo could certainly give young women starting out the impression that they would not be welcome in that career, leading to fewer entering it.

silverharp · 15-08-2017 12:55PM

kylith wrote: »

I was mainly talking about those 'golf course meetings' that professore had brought up, but items such as this memo could certainly give young women starting out the impression that they would not be welcome in that career, leading to fewer entering it.

girls are given a lot of encouragement to go for it so I don't see it being an issue, the overall point of the memo was to treat people as individuals but if there are less women in IT its explainable without it being anybody's fault.
Ive a son growing up and IT could be something he goes into. This whole debacle has me worried that corporate tech might discriminate against him. Should he go into an industry where he is one comment away from going on a secret blacklist?

Dyr · 15-08-2017 01:57PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Yes

Yes. The delegates are elected or chosen at the state or local level, with the understanding that they will support a particular candidate at the convention. They reflect the preferences of people they represent.

Are you still confused?

Have you more questions or are you prepared to acknowledged how idiotic your ultraliberal references are? Liberal would have been a push. Do you know anything about the political spectrum?

No I'm just glad you've confirmed that you think not voting for bernie saunders in an election he where he wasn't even on the ballot is a reliable indication of how liberal san francisco is

You've confirmed that you think that how democratic party reps vote in a dem convention(not the public) is a reliable indication of how liberal San Francisco is.

I don't have to confirm anything else really, the case rests. Thanks for that.

kylith · 15-08-2017 02:21PM

silverharp wrote: »

Ive a son growing up and IT could be something he goes into. This whole debacle has me worried that corporate tech might discriminate against him. Should he go into an industry where he is one comment away from going on a secret blacklist?

Should girls growing up who could go into IT be made to feel like they are biologically incapable of doing the job based on some half-wit's comments?

Dyr · 15-08-2017 02:26PM

kylith wrote: »

Should girls growing up who could go into IT be made to feel like they are biologically incapable of doing the job based on some half-wit's comments?

I think once they have half decent reading and comprehension skills they won't have to.

I reckon there's a generation that missed out on that front though

Bob24 · 15-08-2017 02:28PM

kylith wrote: »

Should girls growing up who could go into IT be made to feel like they are biologically incapable of doing the job based on some half-wit's comments?

This type of hyperbole will ruin the thread (if it hasn't already done so).

Knex* · 15-08-2017 02:45PM

kylith wrote: »

Should girls growing up who could go into IT be made to feel like they are biologically incapable of doing the job based on some half-wit's comments?

Have you read the memo properly, or did you hear about it, form a general opinion, and then just scan through it looking for points that you could misconstrue in order to reaffirm your position?

Wombatman · 15-08-2017 02:50PM

Bambi wrote: »

No I'm just glad you've confirmed that you think not voting for bernie saunders in an election he where he wasn't even on the ballot is a reliable indication of how liberal san francisco is

You've confirmed that you think that how democratic party reps vote in a dem convention(not the public) is a reliable indication of how liberal San Francisco is.

I don't have to confirm anything else really, the case rests. Thanks for that.

I wonder how the delegates magically get chosen to represent the ultraliberal denizens of California. Could the leanings of the delegates possibly reflect the preference of the democratic party members? Could their choice of Clinton over Sanders be an indicator of how centrist - left they are?

Any more question \ nit picks or have you got any argument to suggest that California is a bastion of ultra-liberalism?

BTW above, and for the second time refer them as liberal, not ultraliberal. Do I detect a subconscious volte face?

conorhal · 15-08-2017 03:16PM

Wombatman wrote: »

I wonder how the delegates magically get chosen to represent the ultraliberal denizens of California. Could the leanings of the delegates possibly reflect the preference of the democratic party members? Could their choice of Clinton over Sanders be an indicator of how centrist - left they are?

Any more question \ nit picks or have you got any argument to suggest that California is a bastion of ultra-liberalism?

BTW above, and for the second time refer them as liberal, not ultraliberal. Do I detect a subconscious volte face?

Jaysus, I bet you know exactly how many angels can dance of the head of a pin....

They're 'Hillary Liberals', wealthy, connected, highly socially liberal and very into their intersectional politics but neither they or the virtue signalling companies they work for would want to pay the kind of taxes a 'Bernie Socialist' would expect of them.

Interestingly, Google's software engineers are an 80/20 male/female proportion, exactly the proportion that graduate in the field.

Bob24 · 15-08-2017 03:50PM

conorhal wrote: »

Jaysus, I bet you know exactly how many angels can dance of the head of a pin....

They're 'Hillary Liberals', wealthy, connected, highly socially liberal and very into their intersectional politics but neither they or the virtue signalling companies they work for would want to pay the kind of taxes a 'Bernie Socialist' would expect of them.

Exactly. Full liberals socially and economically in the core meaning of the word: reduce the influence of state entities and social norms as much as possible to let each individual/private entity do its own thing (at least in theory, like even ideologies it sometimes hits internal contradictions).

Very few places in the world represent this better than California (if any, I asked for exemples and still waiting) .

They think they are politically moderate because they are coherent in their liberal views (whereas someone like Sanders would be very liberal on some aspects and not at all on others), but they are actually far from the actual ideological center. On the graph below they would lean to the bottom right from the centre and tend to be at a fairly equal distance from both axis:

(Many of them would like to think they are in the green box, but as you said the simple fact of supporting a system whereby their lifestyle is being guaranteed by a group of large trans-national corporations which are more powerful than some states and "optimise" the amount of tax they pay actually puts them firmly in the purple box)

professore · 15-08-2017 11:15PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Look, personally speaking, I don't believe women as a group aren't on average as capable of say programming as men are. I just think that women as a group are less interested in programming. This is not down to social conditioning. My own daughter did an excellent leaving certificate including an A in honours maths and is pursuing a biology related degree now.

I asked her why she didn't do computer science or engineering and she said it didn't interest her. This is despite having a mum who is an engineer and a dad who works in IT, and both of us always spoke positively to her about both fields. Of her high achieving female friends, they are all in fields like medicine, pharmacy and law. most of her male friends are in IT or engineering. Should they be forced to swap?

If people are honest this is replicated all over the country and indeed the world.

Why is this controversial? I don't understand.

why are you conflating not interested with not capable? They are definitely not as interested in software development as a career but those that are every bit as capable as the guys that do it.

I think the awkward sentence structure can be interpreted that way, but I am saying women are every bit as capable of programming as men are. So I'm not conflating capable and interested.

professore · 15-08-2017 11:20PM

kylith wrote: »

silverharp wrote: »

Reversing what you have said, what men are conspiring to keep women out of IT?

I was mainly talking about those 'golf course meetings' that professore had brought up, but items such as this memo could certainly give young women starting out the impression that they would not be welcome in that career, leading to fewer entering it.

Entirely due to the disgraceful reporting of the memo in the media and Google's appalling statements. Really bad fake news on the same level of antiscientific rhetoric as climate change denial or creationism. Not due to the memo itself, which was well researched and balanced.

Naively James Damore saw a problem in Google and gave his thoughts on it and made some suggestions to possible solutions, for which he was fired

professore · 15-08-2017 11:30PM

Interesting article in the globe and mail

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manifesto-isnt-sexist-or-anti-diversity-its-science/article35903359/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

Bob24 · 16-08-2017 12:02AM

professore wrote: »

Interesting article in the globe and mail

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manifesto-isnt-sexist-or-anti-diversity-its-science/article35903359/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

Brave women to publish this in a Canadian liberal paper. She probably knows she signed-up for receiving a lot of abuse in return.

fash · 16-08-2017 04:57AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Also 42% of software developers were female in the late '80s in the U.S., a proportion which is close enough to a majority to be worth noticing since the proportion apparently dropped by over 50% in the following 20 years

https://stumblingpast.com/2015/10/18/women-worlds-1st-programmers/

If there truly are fundamental biological differences why have the numbers fluctuated so very much over such an extremely short period?

one point of particular note: in more gender- egalitarian societies, human females display more female gender behaviour/interests/difference to male behaviour than in in-egalitarian societies ( i.e. they are free to be themselves- and not get into IT - in a way women in India or Iran are not).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x/abstract

“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber” memo goes viral, usual suspects outraged

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