People who see the paranormal; mentally ill, hoaxters, or the 'placebo' effect?

storker · 15-08-2017 06:24PM

Resist ZOG wrote: »

I'm not saying you have to believe in God, I just find it curious that a militant atheist (my ex) could be scared of a board game

I have a set of Tarot Cards too.

No, I don't believe they can foretell the future, I've just always liked the symbology. I blame the end credit sequence on Tales of the Unexpected...

ceadaoin. · 15-08-2017 06:36PM

These things have been recorded across all cultures for pretty much all of human existence so I think that there must be something in it. That's not to say that many so called psychics aren't charlatans or that some people's accounts could be a result of delusions,, but I don't think every experience can be written off as fraud or mental illness. There are many things that science hasn't discovered yet, I don't see the harm in keeping an open mind.

jacksie66 · 15-08-2017 06:40PM

This post has been deleted.

The_Valeyard · 15-08-2017 06:55PM

storker wrote: »

I've heard comments by some religious people along the lines of "how you not believe in god and say there might be ghosts?" Or sometimes it's aliens on other planets.

OK, the aliens analogy is just stupid, but to look at the ghost=god claim, one is some remnant of a person who really existed and apart from being a dead person who is occasionally visible, has little else by way of magical powers. On the other hand we have a supreme being who was here before everything, made everything, knows everything and can do anything, and whose only weakness seems to be a chronic cashflow problem.

I know which of those I find more far-fetched...

Great mental gymnastics here.

The_Valeyard · 15-08-2017 06:56PM

jacksie66 wrote: »

I'm gonna go play with my ouija board under a ladder and break a mirror while I'm at it. Just for the craic..

On Friday 13th, in a fairy fort.

MonkieSocks · 15-08-2017 07:04PM

storker wrote: »

Well I guess none of us is 100% logical. If I was, I'd go and get a Ouija board and use it just to prove it's all nonsense. But I won't.

:eek: DO NOT CLICK THIS LINK :eek:

RobbingBandit · 15-08-2017 07:09PM

I would say get them a priest but seeing as you invoked the placebo effect the priest might get feisty with just another nancy boy.

sydthebeat · 15-08-2017 07:13PM

jacksie66 wrote: »

I'm gonna go play with my ouija board under a ladder and break a mirror while I'm at it. Just for the craic..

Alas poor jacksie, we knew ya well......

jigglypuffstuff · 15-08-2017 08:08PM

GerryDerpy wrote: »

The credentials of the author intrigued me. His lack of evidence disappointed.

He is a professor of Clinical Psychiatry, and has had several encounters with the phenomenon

You nor I, I imagine ..have had none whatsoever, and our knowledge most likely pales in comparison..So we can assume he has a greater breath of knowledge and understanding of the phenomenon. Not to mention he risks his professional reputation speaking out about the topic

Id be inclined not to be disappointed about such matters, rather im intrigued, and impressed someones putting their neck out like that

jigglypuffstuff · 15-08-2017 08:10PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

These things have been recorded across all cultures for pretty much all of human existence so I think that there must be something in it. That's not to say that many so called psychics aren't charlatans or that some people's accounts could be a result of delusions,, but I don't think every experience can be written off as fraud or mental illness. There are many things that science hasn't discovered yet, I don't see the harm in keeping an open mind.

No no no, don't you understand how wrong you are?

Clearly they invented it all...it was all fabricated :rolleyes:

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 08:11PM

pone2012 wrote: »

He is a professor of Clinical Psychiatry, and has had several encounters with the phenomenon

You nor I, I imagine ..have had none whatsoever, and our knowledge most likely pales in comparison..So we can assume he has a greater breath of knowledge and understanding of the phenomenon. Not to mention he risks his professional reputation speaking out about the topic

Id be inclined not to be disappointed about such matters, rather im intrigued, and impressed someones putting their neck out like that

Meh. It would be easy for him to prove and collect his Nobel prize if all was true.

jigglypuffstuff · 15-08-2017 08:16PM

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Meh. It would be easy for him to prove and collect his Nobel prize if all was true.

Yes because explaining nonphysical phenomena is that easy isnt it?

Look at Dark Matter/Dark Energy....Makes up approximately 95% of the universe and yet we know next to nothing about it, only we can view the effect it has on physical phenomena

If Demonic possession is a nonphysical occurrence, which is what it is traditionally explained to be..and we can only view the physical observable effects (Spouting out Latin for one), how is it written off as nonsense?

Im just curious is all, Im not itching for a debate

s15r330 · 15-08-2017 08:18PM

NIMAN wrote: »

Would you say the same thing about people who believe in (a) God?

Agree with you by the way OP. I have zero belief in this either......and you can add aliens too.

Zero belief in the whole aliens are here thing or that they actually exist?

If people don't believe life exists elsewhere in the Universe they need looking at.
The Universe is so massive that the chances that we are the only life amongst the hundreds of trillions of possible planets out there is about as close to zero as it gets.

MonkieSocks · 15-08-2017 08:22PM

My friend has been having paranoid delusions, he thinks he's a Chocolate Orange and he's worried he's going to be sectioned.

Poor Terry

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 08:26PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Yes because explaining nonphysical phenomena is that easy isnt it?

Look at Dark Matter/Dark Energy....Makes up approximately 95% of the universe and yet we know next to nothing about it, only we can view the effect it has on physical phenomena

If Demonic possession is a nonphysical occurrence, which is what it is traditionally explained to be..and we can only view the physical observable effects (Spouting out Latin for one), how is it written off as nonsense?

Im just curious is all, Im not itching for a debate

It is the physical observable facts that I doubt. Prove them. Then we can talk about what causes them. I wouldn't jump at demonic possession straight away.

railer201 · 15-08-2017 08:45PM

I posted this in another forum some time back - it was featured in a Discovery Channel programme some years back.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12118487.Former_pilot_tells_of_ghostly_meeting_with_dead_colleague/

A FORMER fighter pilot claims he spoke to the ghost of a colleague at Glasgow Airport.

Quote:
Captain Bob Hambleton-Jones said yesterday that he had no idea that Robert Macleod, a friend and fellow pilot with Loganair, had died in an Edinburgh hospital four days earlier.

The two men had known each other for nine years and Captain Hambleton-Jones, who lives in Paisley, said: ``I'm not some kind of crank. I know who I saw and who I spoke to.

``He came up to me and said, `How's it going, you old bastard?' It was great to see him. We chatted for a couple of minutes and then he said, `I must go now.'

``I picked up my bags and turned around but he wasn't there. He was gone.''

It was the following day, last June 16, before a friend drew his attention to Mr Macleod's obituary in a newspaper, which confirmed he had died in Edinburgh Royal Infirmary on June 11.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, who has recently retired from flying, said: ``I was stunned. I thought it must be a mistake or a sick joke.''

Psychic research experts who investigated the claim say Captain Hambleton-Jones has had a paranormal experience which they call ``a post-mortem apparition''.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, who insists that he is ``an agnostic, a real Doubting Thomas, and the original sceptic'', contacted Professor Archie Roy of Glasgow University. He is a professor of Mathematics and Astronomy and is Scottish Head of Psychic Research.

Captain Hambleton-Jones, said: ``I told Professor Roy what had happened. He said that perhaps I had seen an actor or a lookalike.

``But Robert and I were captains in the same fleet for nine years and I know I spoke to him four days after he died.''

Ms Tricia Robertson, of the Scottish Society for Psychical Research, said: ``A post-mortem apparition happens when someone dies unexpectedly. His spirit is going about as normal because he doesn't believe he is dead.

``Such events are not that unusual. They happen more often than you would think.''

Mr Macleod, the son of retired Stornoway electrical contractor N D Macleod, died suddenly after a liver biopsy.

Management at Glasgow Airport are concerned that news of the ghostly encounter may scare off passengers. Airport managers and the British Airports Authority refused to discuss it - and did not want the airport named.

Captain Hambleton-Jones's experience will be featured in a 13-part Discovery Channel TV television documentary on the paranormal which the makers claim will be a sensible treatment of the subject.

jigglypuffstuff · 15-08-2017 08:46PM

GerryDerpy wrote: »

It is the physical observable facts that I doubt. Prove them. Then we can talk about what causes them. I wouldn't jump at demonic possession straight away.

Assaults upon individuals are classified either as “demonic possessions” or as the slightly more common but less intense attacks usually called “oppressions.” A possessed individual may suddenly, in a type of trance, voice statements of astonishing venom and contempt for religion, while understanding and speaking various foreign languages previously unknown to them. The subject might also exhibit enormous strength or even the extraordinarily rare phenomenon of levitation. (I have not witnessed a levitation myself, but half a dozen people I work with vow that they’ve seen it in the course of their exorcisms.) He or she might demonstrate “hidden knowledge” of all sorts of things — like how a stranger’s loved ones died, what secret sins she has committed, even where people are at a given moment. These are skills that cannot be explained except by special psychic or preternatural ability.

I have personally encountered these rationally inexplicable features, along with other paranormal phenomena. My vantage is unusual: As a consulting doctor, I think I have seen more cases of possession than any other physician in the world.

Most of the people I evaluate in this role suffer from the more prosaic problems of a medical disorder. Anyone even faintly familiar with mental illnesses knows that individuals who think they are being attacked by malign spirits are generally experiencing nothing of the sort. Practitioners see psychotic patients all the time who claim to see or hear demons; histrionic or highly suggestible individuals, such as those suffering from dissociative identity syndromes; and patients with personality disorders who are prone to misinterpret destructive feelings, in what exorcists sometimes call a “pseudo-possession,” via the defense mechanism of an externalizing projection. But what am I supposed to make of patients who unexpectedly start speaking perfect Latin?

I approach each situation with an initial skepticism. I technically do not make my own “diagnosis” of possession but inform the clergy that the symptoms in question have no conceivable medical cause.

I am aware of the way many psychiatrists view this sort of work. While the American Psychiatric Association has no official opinion on these affairs, the field (like society at large) is full of unpersuadable skeptics and occasionally doctrinaire materialists who are often oddly vitriolic in their opposition to all things spiritual. My job is to assist people seeking help, not to convince doctors who are not subject to suasion. Yet I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the number of psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners nowadays who are open to entertaining such hypotheses. Many believe exactly what I do, though they may be reluctant to speak out.

Ive bolded what i feel are some highlights of the article Gerry

Of what exactly do you need proof of? this superhuman strength? the spontaneous latin, or other languages? the hidden knowledge? even the levitation which the author claims to have not personally witnessed

If you were shown videos of the above phenomena, perhaps you might write it off as staged or fake?? So wh

So how exactly do you suggest it should be proven?

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 09:09PM

pone2012 wrote: »

Ive bolded what i feel are some highlights of the article Gerry

Of what exactly do you need proof of? this superhuman strength? the spontaneous latin, or other languages? the hidden knowledge? even the levitation which the author claims to have not personally witnessed

If you were shown videos of the above phenomena, perhaps you might write it off as staged or fake?? So wh

So how exactly do you suggest it should be proven?

Yep exactly proof of any of those things. A video is not proof. A video of an experiment could be though. Bring in peers to remove doubt of staging etc. Basically do what is normally done in scientific research. Sound experimental design, robust evidence collection, repeatability. All simple stuff that would be done if the paranormal was true.

Ps - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Junkyard Tom · 15-08-2017 09:25PM

One of Niels Bohr's colleagues was visiting him and noticed a horseshoe over the door of his home. Bohr's colleague asked him if he (the great quantum physicist) really believed the horseshoe brought him luck and Bohr replied:

"Of course not, but I am told it works even if you don't believe in it."

jigglypuffstuff · 15-08-2017 09:52PM

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Yep exactly proof of any of those things. A video is not proof. A video of an experiment could be though. Bring in peers to remove doubt of staging etc. Basically do what is normally done in scientific research. Sound experimental design, robust evidence collection, repeatability. All simple stuff that would be done if the paranormal was true.

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 10:37PM

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

I have never heard of this man so I am not informed enough now to give a full opinion. But I will say that a couple of the things he demonstrates are age old scam tricks. Most notably the electric shock one. A battery device is used. The knife moving - balancing act.

ohnonotgmail · 15-08-2017 10:44PM

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

Odd that he didnt choose to take the easy $1M offered by james randi if he has genuine powers.

Cheerful Spring · 15-08-2017 10:55PM

jeanjolie wrote: »

This is something I've been dying to ask. Unlike our American counterparts, it doesn't seem (thankfully) that we get people here who believe in the paranormal or see the paranormal in their house.

Even relatively religious people here that are Catholics and Muslims tend to stories of demonic entities, poltergeists, ghosts as people trying to look for YouTube views, people convincing themselves through the powerful human brain, or sadly people suffering from psychosis, schizophrenia.

Aren't those really the only logical ones? Science has failed to find evidence of psychic, curses, entities, other realms. It might seem absolutely, positively ignorant to claim that this is all there is, but at the same time we have to look at what unfounded beliefs do (homeopathy).

Is it time to start treating people who believe that the Ouija board has summoned granny through her tranny daughter?

Other dimensions science is not against this idea. If ghosts exist they be hanging out there.

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 11:00PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Odd that he didnt choose to take the easy $1M offered by james randi if he has genuine powers.

Read a bit more on him. Reads as a con man. Pushing chop sticks through tables FFS. As soon as the scrutiny increased he made excuses and disappeared.

People that have genuine paranormal ability would be doing mankind a great service by cooperating and proving their powers. They would literally be one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But no, they always seem to get offended when questioned.

NIMAN · 15-08-2017 11:03PM

s15r330 wrote: »

Zero belief in the whole aliens are here thing or that they actually exist?

If people don't believe life exists elsewhere in the Universe they need looking at.
The Universe is so massive that the chances that we are the only life amongst the hundreds of trillions of possible planets out there is about as close to zero as it gets.

I would say there is a 99.999% chance of life on other planets somewhere, but I don't believe they are visiting us or living among us.

Cheerful Spring · 15-08-2017 11:06PM

NIMAN wrote: »

I would say there is a 99.999% chance of life on other planets somewhere, but I don't believe they are visiting us or living among us.

There is plenty of evidence of non human visitation, but i guess the million dollar question are they meeting secretly with governments behind the scenes?

storker · 15-08-2017 11:07PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Great mental gymnastics here.

Please explain why you think so.

NIMAN · 15-08-2017 11:09PM

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence of non human visitation, but i guess the million dollar question are they meeting secretly with governments behind the scenes?

Is there?

We now live in a world where we can see silly things happening in the deepest corners of the world due to the amount of our lives that are being recorded and the fact that smart phones are recording everything, yet why no clear, sharp, detailed footage of aliens or ufo's?

ohnonotgmail · 15-08-2017 11:11PM

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Read a bit more on him. Reads as a con man. Pushing chop sticks through tables FFS. As soon as the scrutiny increased he made excuses and disappeared.

People that have genuine paranormal ability would be doing mankind a great service by cooperating and proving their powers. They would literally be one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But no, they always seem to get offended when questioned.

ah come on now, my post was obviously sarcastic. I dont believe he actually has any powers.

GerryDerpy · 15-08-2017 11:11PM

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

Didn't take me long to find this video: https://youtu.be/sErvoaeNzac

I am not saying it proves your man is a con, but there is enough reasonable doubt that I would lean heavily that way.

People who see the paranormal; mentally ill, hoaxters, or the 'placebo' effect?

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