Brexit discussion thread II

robindch · 10-08-2017 10:51PM

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Country Squire wrote:

The Republic of Ireland has a population less than twice the size of Manchester. It has a history of seeing “England’s difficulty as Ireland’s Opportunity” (At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, the slogan ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’ became synonymous among Irish nationalists and became the driving force behind physical force nationalism in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century). Just like its Irish-blooded compatriots in Glasgow who form the basis for the bothersome SNP – Irish navvies who went over to Scotland to build the infrastructure the local population needed. The Irish Taoiseach, mon de Valera, formally offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945. The southern Irish – just like their northern friends Sinn Fein – can be trusted about as far as one can throw them. Nothing has changed.

[...]

The Irish Government under its latest lippy Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, continues the Irish tradition of being bloody difficult and is used like de Valera by the Germans. Varadkar sees Brexit as an opportunity to be a pain in the situpon. He has said the country will not “design a border for the Brexiteers” as his foreign minister said there was no proposal to make the Irish Sea the new frontier with the UK after withdrawal.

Let’s take stock for a moment. Eire is the land of puppy farms, rain-soaked holidays, dingy bars, drugs mule celebs, verbal diarrhoea and squeaky fiddles – that fool Bob Geldof comes from there. A “country” where the burglars from Britain with surnames like Kettle and Rafferty – return to build eyesore “palaces” in ratholes like Rathkeale (a small Irish town swollen by the proceeds of crime). Eire is bankrupt yet replete with EU white elephants (many unfinished as the money dried up to complete motorways and other infrastructure) – the destination for lots of British money via the EU unelected overlords in recent decades. The country’s banking history is a joke – wasted away on a property boom and buying in furniture restoring old British castles for narcissistic Irish “entrepreneurs”.

There are two rates of corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland: 12.5% for trading income, 25% for non-trading income – Eire cannot generate enough business for itself without attracting offshore business and depends upon dressing itself up as the BVI with Guinness. Eire’s history is basically British – before that it was a bunch of warring families and a corrupt church involved in an incessant spiral of gob****eing and slaying – certainly not a nation. The best things in Eire are all British – amongst them Cadbury’s chocolate, Jack Charlton and the English breakfast. Even their much-heralded patron Saint was a Brit and they had to kidnap the poor fellow – at the age of sixteen Patrick was captured by a group of Irish pirates who brought him to Ireland where he was enslaved and held captive for several years (one wonders if the plastic Paddies in Boston and Chicago who dye their rivers green know this?).

Want to see some Irish loyalty? During the Falklands Crisis even Guinness considered turning itself into an English company and was prepared to drop all associations with Ireland .

The British Government should pay as much attention to whining Varadkar as it does now to the punctured gasbag Sturgeon. The Irish trading corporation tax rate should be undercut by a post Brexit UK economy and just sit back, Britons, and watch the rush of business that will both return from Eire and emerge from the rest of the world, especially Trump’s America and in the form of flight capital from China and the East. London as a financial haven independent of the EU and its upcoming financial travails (just look at Deutsche Bank and the EU’s dependency on corporate bonds in basket cases like Siemens) will flourish even more.

Eire’s dairy can get lost – as Britain’s farmers get supported post Brexit by British consumers for once, and delicious Welsh lamb, British beef and the wonderful dairy products of Northern Ireland and Scotland grace our kitchen tables. The border with Eire should be set up however the UK wants it – however much Eire and the EU whine. If the IRA kick up a fuss, just carry on as things were in 1998 – crack down on the cowards to the point where they have nowhere to go except surrender or negotiate. They will be seen worldwide in the same light as Al Qaeda.

[...]

If Britain wants to it can run Eire into the ground where there are no consolations – its spotty youths will brain drain again to the US and Britain and its economy will crumble. In a decade, after some bumps in the road, Britain and the North of Ireland will flourish. Varadkar will be on the political scrapheap like Sturgeon. The squeals of puppies trapped in car boots will be long gone. Britain’s farms will be booming. The EU will be without Italy and the vacuous Macron experiment will be a distant memory, as will Merkel who won’t dare show herself in public after a fatwa has been put on her by the Muslim Mayor of Cologne.

Maybe then prodigal Eire will seek membership of the UK. Unlikely. Unless they somehow – miraculously – developed loyalty, we’d not actually want them or their hurdy-gurdy.

steddyeddy · 10-08-2017 11:01PM

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

The xenphobia that fuelled Brexit ladies and gentlemen.

Considering the history of British immigrants in Ireland it's amazing they think we care if they have any good will towards us. Couldn't care less frankly. Anti-Irish sentiment was common in Britain long before the IRA.

FrancieBrady · 10-08-2017 11:02PM

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Didn't know puppy farms were a thing here - you learn something new every day.

Professor Moriarty · 10-08-2017 11:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The xenphobia that fuelled Brexit ladies and gentlemen.

Considering the history of British immigrants in Ireland it's amazing they think we care if they have any good will towards us. Couldn't care less frankly. Anti-Irish sentiment was common in Britain long before the IRA.

It's actually quite funny in a Waterford Whispers News way. Some accurate observations mixed in with tongue-in-cheek stereotyping.

joeysoap · 10-08-2017 11:30PM

That article is unbelievable, who writes such trash and is there a market for it?

* Unfortunately we have a few illegal ' puppy farms'. Smuggling of very badly mistreated pups to the uk for large profit is an ongoing problem for customs, gardai and RSPCA.

On reading it again; is it a joke?

Billy86 · 11-08-2017 12:30AM

Who cares? His children if he has any will be desperate to claim any Irishness they can find before long, even just to gain an EU passport.

flatty · 11-08-2017 08:10AM

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Country Squire wrote:

The Republic of Ireland has a population less than twice the size of Manchester. It has a history of seeing “England’s difficulty as Ireland’s Opportunity” (At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, the slogan ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’ became synonymous among Irish nationalists and became the driving force behind physical force nationalism in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century). Just like its Irish-blooded compatriots in Glasgow who form the basis for the bothersome SNP – Irish navvies who went over to Scotland to build the infrastructure the local population needed. The Irish Taoiseach, mon de Valera, formally offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945. The southern Irish – just like their northern friends Sinn Fein – can be trusted about as far as one can throw them. Nothing has changed.

[...]

The Irish Government under its latest lippy Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, continues the Irish tradition of being bloody difficult and is used like de Valera by the Germans. Varadkar sees Brexit as an opportunity to be a pain in the situpon. He has said the country will not “design a border for the Brexiteers” as his foreign minister said there was no proposal to make the Irish Sea the new frontier with the UK after withdrawal.

Let’s take stock for a moment. Eire is the land of puppy farms, rain-soaked holidays, dingy bars, drugs mule celebs, verbal diarrhoea and squeaky fiddles – that fool Bob Geldof comes from there. A “country” where the burglars from Britain with surnames like Kettle and Rafferty – return to build eyesore “palaces” in ratholes like Rathkeale (a small Irish town swollen by the proceeds of crime). Eire is bankrupt yet replete with EU white elephants (many unfinished as the money dried up to complete motorways and other infrastructure) – the destination for lots of British money via the EU unelected overlords in recent decades. The country’s banking history is a joke – wasted away on a property boom and buying in furniture restoring old British castles for narcissistic Irish “entrepreneurs”.

There are two rates of corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland: 12.5% for trading income, 25% for non-trading income – Eire cannot generate enough business for itself without attracting offshore business and depends upon dressing itself up as the BVI with Guinness. Eire’s history is basically British – before that it was a bunch of warring families and a corrupt church involved in an incessant spiral of gob****eing and slaying – certainly not a nation. The best things in Eire are all British – amongst them Cadbury’s chocolate, Jack Charlton and the English breakfast. Even their much-heralded patron Saint was a Brit and they had to kidnap the poor fellow – at the age of sixteen Patrick was captured by a group of Irish pirates who brought him to Ireland where he was enslaved and held captive for several years (one wonders if the plastic Paddies in Boston and Chicago who dye their rivers green know this?).

Want to see some Irish loyalty? During the Falklands Crisis even Guinness considered turning itself into an English company and was prepared to drop all associations with Ireland .

The British Government should pay as much attention to whining Varadkar as it does now to the punctured gasbag Sturgeon. The Irish trading corporation tax rate should be undercut by a post Brexit UK economy and just sit back, Britons, and watch the rush of business that will both return from Eire and emerge from the rest of the world, especially Trump’s America and in the form of flight capital from China and the East. London as a financial haven independent of the EU and its upcoming financial travails (just look at Deutsche Bank and the EU’s dependency on corporate bonds in basket cases like Siemens) will flourish even more.

Eire’s dairy can get lost – as Britain’s farmers get supported post Brexit by British consumers for once, and delicious Welsh lamb, British beef and the wonderful dairy products of Northern Ireland and Scotland grace our kitchen tables. The border with Eire should be set up however the UK wants it – however much Eire and the EU whine. If the IRA kick up a fuss, just carry on as things were in 1998 – crack down on the cowards to the point where they have nowhere to go except surrender or negotiate. They will be seen worldwide in the same light as Al Qaeda.

[...]

If Britain wants to it can run Eire into the ground where there are no consolations – its spotty youths will brain drain again to the US and Britain and its economy will crumble. In a decade, after some bumps in the road, Britain and the North of Ireland will flourish. Varadkar will be on the political scrapheap like Sturgeon. The squeals of puppies trapped in car boots will be long gone. Britain’s farms will be booming. The EU will be without Italy and the vacuous Macron experiment will be a distant memory, as will Merkel who won’t dare show herself in public after a fatwa has been put on her by the Muslim Mayor of Cologne.

Maybe then prodigal Eire will seek membership of the UK. Unlikely. Unless they somehow – miraculously – developed loyalty, we’d not actually want them or their hurdy-gurdy.

That's the best thing I've read on boards in ages.
Bored, quite talented wum I'd say.

Blowfish · 11-08-2017 10:21AM

flatty wrote: »

That's the best thing I've read on boards in ages.
Bored, quite talented wum I'd say.

I'm actually not sure that site is satire/wum. One of their writers also writes for Breitbart.

ancapailldorcha · 11-08-2017 10:26AM

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Pretty harrowing. I find it easy to forget these types even exist due to my living in places like London and Manchester.

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 04:07PM

Good evening!

An interesting set of polls have been produced by Buzzfeed on Brexit and what remainers and leavers believe about it.

Interestingly it shows that most remainers don't want to be subject to all ECJ decisions and prefer a scenario where the UK continues to adopt some EU law without ECJ oversight.

It also shows that both sets of voters want control over borders. Interestingly it shows that leavers want passport and custom checks on the Northern Ireland border.

Single market access also wasn't a big issue for remainers, but both leavers and remainers are willing to pay something to the EU for leaving, and even more interestingly, potentially something per-annum to continue trading into the single market. (The leavers in this poll seem more liberal than me on this issue!)

The findings seem to go quite well in tandem with the YouGov polling after the invocation of Article 50.

So, Professor Moriarty, I don't feel in a minority.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub · 11-08-2017 04:32PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

An interesting set of polls have been produced by Buzzfeed on Brexit and what remainers and leavers believe about it.

Buzzfeed, I'd put more stock in a poll conducted of my local pub by the barman.
Should of read more than the opening paragraph initially.

Billy86 · 11-08-2017 04:47PM

It's actually London School of Economics and Oxford University, and it backs up what many here have said - the UK is on a suicide run which if followed is going to end really, really badly for them. They'll get laughed right out of the room with their 'pay a fee for single market access' idea, unless of course it's a ridiculously huge sum.

oppenheimer1 · 11-08-2017 05:29PM

The problem with these studies is that the repercussions of each different scenario is still abstract and difficult for a lay person to understand. One study had 57% of people backing both open and closed borders at the same time. The researchers had to force options on people to prevent them taking contradictory stances. This means at least half the population doesn't understand the issues at all.

Asking the British public what it wants is next to pointless, because it is not the British public that will get to decide the softness of the Brexit that it gets.

Fratton Fred · 11-08-2017 05:30PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Pretty harrowing. I find it easy to forget these types even exist due to my living in places like London and Manchester.

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

ancapailldorcha · 11-08-2017 05:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

They definitely do, though. In Oxford, I had a good chunk of a pub chant "Potato Famine" at me for a solid 5 minutes until I realised they weren't going to stop. I've had workmates who've, for some reason insisted on regailing me with tales of British military bravery and conquest, particularly in relation to Ireland. It's definitely there, even in liberal, University towns like Oxford.

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 05:45PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They definitely do, though. In Oxford, I had a good chunk of a pub chant "Potato Famine" at me for a solid 5 minutes until I realised they weren't going to stop. I've had workmates who've, for some reason insisted on regailing me with tales of British military bravery and conquest, particularly in relation to Ireland. It's definitely there, even in liberal, University towns like Oxford.

Good evening!

I think everyone knows it's there (I'm sure it's there in respect to British people living in Ireland also), but as for what extent it's there is another question. I'm personally quite surprised at your stories. I've not had anything apart from good humour about being Irish over the years I've been living here. I can't say I've been anything else apart from very well received.

As for people saying most leave voters are like this, that's also nonsense. During the referendum I was living in a majority remain borough of London. Now I live in a majority leave vote borough of London, possibly by the highest margin. I can't say that attitudes towards Irish people are any different.

I think drawing big conclusions about leave voters from a reactionary blog is a bit silly at best.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Capt'n Midnight · 11-08-2017 05:49PM

Strong and Stable.

James Chapman claimed two cabinet ministers had expressed interest in a new centre party to oppose Brexit.

Brexit will "make Black Wednesday look like a picnic", says David Davis' former aide James Chapman (left)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40896987

currency strategists at US investment bank Morgan Stanley are even forecasting that the euro could move "beyond parity" with the pound on the currency markets for the first time ever in early 2018.

oppenheimer1 · 11-08-2017 05:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

Calina · 11-08-2017 05:54PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Interestingly it shows that most remainers don't want to be subject to all ECJ decisions and prefer a scenario where the UK continues to adopt some EU law without ECJ oversight.

It also shows that both sets of voters want control over borders. Interestingly it shows that leavers want passport and custom checks on the Northern Ireland border.

It's a couple of hours since I read the Buzzfeed piece but IIRC, they strongly implied that in the event of Brexit, this is what people wanted.

From this, no logical person should extrapolate that this is what Remain voters want in the event of Brexit not happening. Plus, I think it would be useful to wait for the LSE piece to actually come out. Nothing against Buzzfeed and their Europe guy, Alberto Nardelli, is very good at his brief.

However, the problem is that what the British people think they want and what their economy needs are diverging.

Billy86 · 11-08-2017 05:58PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Strong and Stable.

James Chapman claimed two cabinet ministers had expressed interest in a new centre party to oppose Brexit.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40896987

It's not even off right now - currently at 109.9c to 1GBP, which might be it's lowest ever?

murphaph · 11-08-2017 06:06PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

Nope. Brexit is going to set it all back again. Wait and see.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 06:07PM

Billy86 wrote: »

It's not even off right now - currently at 109.9c to 1GBP, which might be it's lowest ever?

No. It was almost at parity in 2008.

Leonard Hofstadter · 11-08-2017 06:19PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

In my almost five years of living in the UK (and in a city that voted leave albeit by a very slim margin), not once have I come across anything that could be even remotely considered anti-Irish. While I hate Brexit I've absolutely nothing against the English, they've been very good to me and my nationality has never been an issue even when we talk about Brexit.

In Ireland on the other hand some still have the chip on the shoulder....

steddyeddy · 11-08-2017 06:40PM

captainspeed wrote: »

In my almost five years of living in the UK (and in a city that voted leave albeit by a very slim margin), not once have I come across anything that could be even remotely considered anti-Irish. While I hate Brexit I've absolutely nothing against the English, they've been very good to me and my nationality has never been an issue even when we talk about Brexit.

In Ireland on the other hand some still have the chip on the shoulder....

It's Ireland has a chip on its shoulder....... in a thread about the UK leaving the EU.

solodeogloria · 11-08-2017 06:53PM

murphaph wrote: »

Nope. Brexit is going to set it all back again. Wait and see.

Good evening!

And that's the proof that you're on the extreme side of the argument.

Good relations with the UK aren't predicated on the UK being a member of the EU. Perhaps that's the fickle notion behind your concept of friendship but there's no need to protect this onto an entire nation.

To be honest. I think Britain has more knowledge, care and consideration of Irish issues than your "friends" on the continent do.

I hope Irish people continue to see our friendship with the UK as being hugely valuable.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha · 11-08-2017 07:00PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think drawing big conclusions about leave voters from a reactionary blog is a bit silly at best.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I never mentioned Leave voters. I was referring to the sentiment described in the article that Robindch linked to.

murphaph · 11-08-2017 07:08PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

And that's the proof that you're on the extreme side of the argument.

Good relations with the UK aren't predicated on the UK being a member of the EU. Perhaps that's the fickle notion behind your concept of friendship but there's no need to protect this onto an entire nation.

To be honest. I think Britain has more knowledge, care and consideration of Irish issues than your "friends" on the continent do.

I hope Irish people continue to see our friendship with the UK as being hugely valuable.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

It's got nothing to do with them being outside the EU and everything to do with the mess this creates for Ireland.

I would have been quite pro-British before all this. My mother spent many of her formative years in Eastbourne. We have English cousins. Brexit is a huge let down for me personally. I feel the UK is bailing on friends without any consideration whatsoever.

indioblack · 11-08-2017 07:55PM

murphaph wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with them being outside the EU and everything to do with the mess this creates for Ireland.

I would have been quite pro-British before all this. My mother spent many of her formative years in Eastbourne. We have English cousins. Brexit is a huge let down for me personally. I feel the UK is bailing on friends without any consideration whatsoever.

I voted Remain - and, when the result of the referendum was announced, one of my first emotions was that we were turning our backs on Europe.
Logically, though, there is the consideration that nations joined the EEC/EU for their own self-interest. Industry, security, harmonization - the building up of infrastructure to increase each nations wealth.
It could be argued that a nation leaving the EU is also doing so for the same logical, and presumably acceptable, self-interest.

kingchess · 11-08-2017 08:53PM

Saw this little gem over on the funny vids thread BREXIT n (toht l krap) the undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

FrancieBrady · 11-08-2017 09:14PM

indioblack wrote: »

I voted Remain - and, when the result of the referendum was announced, one of my first emotions was that we were turning our backs on Europe.
Logically, though, there is the consideration that nations joined the EEC/EU for their own self-interest. Industry, security, harmonization - the building up of infrastructure to increase each nations wealth.
It could be argued that a nation leaving the EU is also doing so for the same logical, and presumably acceptable, self-interest.

I vaguely remember the debate about joining, it was an informed choice.
The debate to leave was drowned out by fear mongering, propaganda, xenophobia and bluster.
The 'debate' is only happening now and IMO Leave wouldn't have a hope in hell of winning.
Very sad for the UK.

Brexit discussion thread II

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