Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It might be. The consensus tends to hoop in this thread without any noticeable questioning. As long as the conclusion is that fault lies with women, feminism and the media, the arguments take various forms.

Yah for sure I think there is an element of blame on both sides it's always easier to blame outwards than reflect inwards.

I do however think there is some merit in the effect isms have on people. Does a certain ideological view point close off an ability to compromise.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well it depends on what the problem is and who needs to be blamed.

The most acceptable view on this forum is that the career women are probably feminists who only want to marry up and can't find men who interest them - women/feminists fault. On the other hand is men who can't find a relationship which is because the women dong want them because of the media portrayals of these guys as nerds - media/women/feminists fault.

The premises of the argument don't seem to matter in this thread as long as the conclusion is that the blame lies with the media/women/feminists.

Well I don't think that is the premise overall the discussion was of an article in which a female author was doing exactly as you have said.

This is a men's forum sonof course there will be more with a view like you have described.

Why are you policing it though ? Don't do the same in the woman's forum?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

but I don't think the pity parade that media/women/feminists are to blame for all the woes every man faces, is helpful.

thats your strawman though, nobody has said that.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm not policing anything, I haven't asks anyone to do anything. I'm simply pointing out the double standard. I find this forum useful but I don't think the pity parade that media/women/feminists are to blame for all the woes every man faces, is helpful. When it's blatant, it should be challenged. Would you disagree?

Sorry for the delay, I am at a scarecrow festival and signal is crappy.

I don't disagree with your intent but I wonder about the delivery maybe I am taking it wrong but you seem to be very annoyed or offended by what you see in this forum . Much like the ladies forum this is also a safe place for men to discuss stuff

Not that we need the he-man woman hating club (little rascals ) but others have said similar to you and they aren't coming at it so blunt.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So this stereotype does exist as you outline and use in an example, but the media is wrong if it uses the same stereotype in the same context?

If someone is less appealing to the opposite sex, it's hardly up to the opposite sex to change what they find appealing to include the individual in question. Yet that seems to be the implication. If a man is socially inept and can't find a partner, then it's the media's fault or the feminist's fault or the women's fault.

Maybe it's just a function of society that some people partner up and others don't. That goes for men and women.

Don't twist my words.

What the media does is take these and make them into stereotypes, affixing more undesirable characteristics to a specific group of people who, on their own, already had way more than enough difficulties in life.

Moreover, they actively extend the stereotype by binding it to certain jobs, hobbies and preferences - e.g. computer programmers, Sci-Fi fans, Comic book lovers, "Bronies" and so on. All treated like they're unwashed shut-ins, living in a basement filthy with discarded Doritos bags and half-drank bottles of Mountain Dew. There are such cases, I give you that, but they're not representative of 100% of the sample.

It's easy to see how somebody who didn't have any specific opinion nor idea about it, would easily be swayed but such influence - "So you like Star Trek eh? Sorry, I remembered I need to wash my hair straightener tonight, bye!". Most of the times, the person reacting like this has absolutely no idea what the subject actually is; An ex-girlfriend of mine "hated" anything that was "Star-something"...turned out, she had never watched a single episode, movie or whatever of anything related. She picked up her "hate" on nerd types shown in movies and TV series.

Is it the only differentiator? By all means NO; For the millionth time, there are undeniably off putting characteristics that apply to a general level - we as humans are intrinsically programmed to respond to certain cues, be it a nicely shaped face, a curvaceous body, muscly arms or a confident attitude, and dislike others.

Can these preferences amplified? They can; And by all means, some people are indeed just not meant / made to "pair off", absolutely; We should all understand that, and maybe stop demonizing these individuals for still having sexual and romantic desires despite their difficulties, if what I mean is clear - afterall, we do live in an hypersexualized, hyper-romanticised world.

tritium wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is that really the case? The poster H3llr4iser mar this exact point 2 posts before yours ;



Maybe H3llr4iser is part of the dreaded media. Or else it's not just the media who use this image.

Some men can't get a relationship = women's/feminism/media's fault.
Some women can't get a relationship = women's/feminism/media's fault. This notion is more about making the same old point than commenting on anything in reality.

Oddly neither myself or h3llraiser made any link to feminism, yet you made that leap. I suspect your post sayd more about your mindset than anyone elses....

You're right. Your posts were limited to bemoaning the media and didn't mention feminism. My observation isnt limited to your posts

H3llR4iser wrote: »

What the media does is take these and make them into stereotypes, affixing more undesirable characteristics to a specific group of people who, on their own, already had way more than enough difficulties in life.

Moreover, they actively extend the stereotype by binding it to certain jobs, hobbies and preferences - e.g. computer programmers, Sci-Fi fans, Comic book lovers, "Bronies" and so on. All treated like they're unwashed shut-ins, living in a basement filthy with discarded Doritos bags and half-drank bottles of Mountain Dew. There are such cases, I give you that, but they're not representative of 100% of the sample.

It's easy to see how somebody who didn't have any specific opinion nor idea about it, would easily be swayed but such influence - "So you like Star Trek eh? Sorry, I remembered I need to wash my hair straightener tonight, bye!". Most of the times, the person reacting like this has absolutely no idea what the subject actually is; An ex-girlfriend of mine "hated" anything that was "Star-something"...turned out, she had never watched a single episode, movie or whatever of anything related. She picked up her "hate" on nerd types shown in movies and TV series.

Is it the only differentiator? By all means NO; For the millionth time, there are undeniably off putting characteristics that apply to a general level - we as humans are intrinsically programmed to respond to certain cues, be it a nicely shaped face, a curvaceous body, muscly arms or a confident attitude, and dislike others.

Can these preferences amplified? They can; And by all means, some people are indeed just not meant / made to "pair off", absolutely; We should all understand that, and maybe stop demonizing these individuals for still having sexual and romantic desires despite their difficulties, if what I mean is clear - afterall, we do live in an hypersexualized, hyper-romanticised world.

I didn't mean to twist your words and thanks for elaborating on the point.

You mention the media effect on your girlfriends attitude to Star Trek. First, it didn't stop her going out with you. I love Star Trek and it never held me back in conversations. If it comes up then you own it like any other quirk of your personality.

Secondly, is it much different to the way shows aimed mostly at men talk about shows aimed mostly at women like Sex and the City? Family Guy did a bit where Brian said "SATC, that's the show about 3hookers and their mom, right?". I'd imagine plenty of men have a negative view on SATC without having seen very much of it.

It's a bit precious to get so offended. Do the same posters get that offended by every stereotype used in media? This situation is ripe for the word "triggered".

Wibbs wrote: »

lacking in awareness about how this would have gone over and how it would have affected people in the company in practical terms.

I don't think he lacked awareness about how it would go over since he said people feel the need to stay in the closet to avoid open hostility. He might not have expected it to be leaked to the media which would be a bit silly if true.

Was reading the cnn.com front page earlier and found the juxtaposition of some of the stories fairly interesting. (It's since changed, I think they rotate the stories fairly frequently).

- The story about the Google exec being fired for his anti-diversity memo.
- A story about how women will always get window or aisle, never middle seats on an airline (Vistara) due to "the scourge of manspreading". (I'd have thought wider seats and more legroom would be far more effective, but I guess that costs money).
- A story on "how to avoid the male gaze".

I'm not equating the three stories, but can't help but feel the acceptability of the stories is based on the gender being referenced and not the negative generalisation itself.

Wibbs wrote: »

Which in my mind P would make him an even bigger idiot lacking in basic awareness.

People standing up for their beliefs despite knowing there will be opposition from people in power isn't necessarily a lack of awareness. It might or might not be.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I didn't mean to twist your words and thanks for elaborating on the point.

You mention the media effect on your girlfriends attitude to Star Trek. First, it didn't stop her going out with you. I love Star Trek and it never held me back in conversations. If it comes up then you own it like any other quirk of your personality.

Because I didn't mention it until a little bit into the relationship, and it basically came out more or less like "the new Star Trek movie came out" and her going "bah, that's stupid!". It sparked the whole discussion; One of her points was actually "You don't look like someone who likes Star Whatever!". Also, I think you figured this, that relationship didn't last much longer after that specific conversation

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Secondly, is it much different to the way shows aimed mostly at men talk about shows aimed mostly at women like Sex and the City? Family Guy did a bit where Brian said "SATC, that's the show about 3hookers and their mom, right?". I'd imagine plenty of men have a negative view on SATC without having seen very much of it.

It's a bit precious to get so offended. Do the same posters get that offended by every stereotype used in media? This situation is ripe for the word "triggered".

It's very different; We're talking about comparing a show whose central point is, essentially, making over-the-top fun of various cultural tropes (especially the ones considered mostly "positive" or "desirable") as opposed to shows/movies which portray lifelike or at least vaguely plausible scenarios and situations; Poking fun at specific people, occupations or interests has a very different meaning in each of the two.

I don't know where you get the "getting offended" or "triggered" angle, it's beyond forced. It's just observing and accepting reality - are there specific hobbies, fields of study and occupations that have long since been portrayed as "undesirable" in most mainstream media? Yes, there are; Can this further affect their perception on the part of society? It indeed can and does.

silverharp wrote: »

I found the comment about not looking like a Star Trek fan amusing. I guess its normal to have preconceptions of people who watch certain shows but it wouldn't make me think less of someone because they liked a particular show.

In a nutshell, in her mind, Star Trek fans were morbidly obese neck beard types, living in some sort of permanent delusion about being in the show and unable to think about anything else; It seems silly, but come think of it - if you're never been in contact with something, have never known anybody into it and have only been exposed to its portrayal in a movie/TV series, you subconsciously form an idea based on that portrayal.

Sometimes, Star Trek fans exercise, don't live in a basement / attic, work a normal job and just talk and act like any other guy; Sometimes, they even look like these three:


Before anyone asks yes, they're "real" fans who just go to conventions in ST uniforms, they aren't "boot models"; Although they did raise to a bit of internet fame (as you can see, the picture is from TrekNews.net)...guess why? Essentially, because...yep, you wouldn't think they're Star Trek fans by just looking at them...the irony . Sometimes, the portrayal even affects the people inside the group.

Also, the power of portrayals/stereotypes is immense and affect us all to some level; I've relatively recently experienced it myself when a candidate came in for an interview at work: she showed up at the door in the company's Engineering/IT department, incidentally while I was going to the loo (which is outside), asking if she was at the right place. I asked her who she was meeting with, because she might need to go to a different floor - only afterwards, I realized what had happened: tall, pretty, nice dress, perfect make up - my subconscious had automatically decided "Sales/Marketing/HR". She was a software dev and, it turns out, a damn bloody good one at it; I felt like a proper idiot

Sleepy wrote: »

I dunno, I certainly tend to think less of someone if I find out they're a fan of Sex and the City. I've sat through enough episodes (and regretably even the movies) to have a valid opinion on it and it's no more than escapist consumer porn with a side dose of "don't worry, a rich man will come along and fix all of your mistakes for you despite you having no redeeming character traits that would make you worthy of his time and attention". /vomit

Mmm...no, and not just because of my own example - some of the most amazing ladies I've ever met have...guilty pleasures in the form of liking shows you wouldn't think of; We're talking about smart, witty, competent, self-confident young women who also happened to enjoy...Coronation Street or East Enders. I wouldn't watch ten second of footage from these shows, but the fact someone likes them, clearly, doesn't mean anything other than that - that they like these soaps.

On the other hand, 'though, I would be a bit wary of someone whose only hobby/pasttime/interest was to watch TV (in general)...and there are a lot of people like that.