“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber” memo goes viral, usual suspects outraged

wes · 08-08-2017 10:34PM

JRant wrote: »

Oh I'm sure it's happened at other companies before. I'm just outlining how incredibly throughout Google are in their hiring process. You need to do at least 9 interviews, pass the background check and give permission to your University to hand over your records. They are incredibly paranoid when it comes to hiring and it would be extremely difficult to get anything past them.

Yes, I know about there process, but again its not impossible that they screwed up, for any number of reasons. We don't know what he said to Google, but we do know that Harvard dispute the claims on his LinkedIn page.

wes · 08-08-2017 10:35PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

Maybe he won't accept a settlement though. Some more publicity might be more useful. He has enough intelligence and enough writing ability, and now he has the exposure, to write a book, contribute to blogs/media, set up a youtube channel, or all of the above. Some of those youtubers are making silly money. He should get himself an agent and some advisors and he'll make 10X more money just being a public figure than he would as an engineer.

Google owns Youtube...........

Bob24 · 08-08-2017 10:35PM

wes wrote: »

Yeah, that will be the likely outcome, unless someone gets greedy.

Or unless he decides he want to make a point out of it and is interested in politics more than immediate cash gains.

But clearly if it comes o that and if I was him I would take the money. The quality of legal advice he could get is way below what Google can afford so going to court would be at his disadvantage.

wes · 08-08-2017 10:40PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Or unless he decides he want to make a point out of it.

Google can easily drag things out for years and years out of spite if they want. Its a bad idea to go up against Google, unless you have iron clad case, which I don't think this guy does.

Its very likely that Google will clamp down on political speech (as will other companies) after this mess. Rightly so imo, this whole thing has caused nothing but trouble for Google, and its certainly not worth the bother.

Dyr · 08-08-2017 10:46PM

JRant wrote: »

Even if he does bring a case it'll never get to a courtroom. There'll be a PFO settlement and that'll be the end of it.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of his dismissal. They'll want it to go away as quick as possible.

Absolutely, google do not want to be shown up to have done wrong in this case. he will most likely be paid off handsomely to f**k off quietly into the sunset

Not a bad move if he planned it that way

Bob24 · 08-08-2017 10:47PM

wes wrote: »

Google can easily drag things out for years and years out of spite if they want. Its a bad idea to go up against Google, unless you have iron clad case, which I don't think this guy does.

Yes agreed there's not point in going to court if what you're after is cash.

But if you want regular media coverage to be able to make get your points accross and become known to a specific audience, a long judicial process might be your preferred choice.

wes · 08-08-2017 10:49PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes agreed there's not point in going to court if what you're after is cash.

But if you want regular media coverage to be able to make your points and become known to a specific audience, a long judicial process might be your preferred choice.

Sure, he may try that, but a long process like you describe, will result in his life being turned upside down. Its been a few days, and we already have people questioning his educational claims. Dragging this out, may not work all that well for him as he may think.

08-08-2017 10:52PM

wes wrote: »

Sure, he may try that, but a long process like you describe, will result in his life being turned upside down. Its been a few days, and we already have people questioning his educational claims. Dragging this out, may not work all that well for him as he may think.

Also

Why
Did
He
Leave
His
PhD
?

LionelNashe · 08-08-2017 10:54PM

wes wrote: »

Google owns Youtube...........

So what? Just because Google fired the guy doesn't mean that they can or will block him from using their platform to make himself a few hundred grand a year. Even that Inforwars guy has a youtube channel that hasn't been shut down.

wes · 08-08-2017 10:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Also

Why
Did
He
Leave
His
PhD
?

I don't have that info.

wes · 08-08-2017 10:57PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

So what? Just because Google fired the guy doesn't mean that they can or will block him from using their platform to make himself a few hundred grand a year. Even that Inforwars guy has a youtube channel that hasn't been shut down.

If he is suing them, they might do exactly that. Also, he would have to be an idiot to use a Google platform, when he is suing them.

LionelNashe · 08-08-2017 11:02PM

wes wrote: »

If he is suing them, they might do exactly that. Also, he would have to be an idiot to use a Google platform, when he is suing them.

No they wouldn't, and no he wouldn't.

Bob24 · 08-08-2017 11:04PM

wes wrote: »

If he is suing them, they might do exactly that. Also, he would have to be an idiot to use a Google platform, when he is suing them.

Don't think it would be smart of them. It would get them some headlines for censoring him a second time and he would get even more views on whichever rival platform he moves to.

But as you said it would be smarter of him to stay clear from Google's platform if he is suing them. First thing I'd do is migrating all my personal data to competing services, deleting all I can from Google (though I'm sure they have access to backups) and log out of the account forever amd l' all cookies to make sure my activity isn't namely being tracked by their plateform. He could occasionally log into a new account which is used for nothing else and post a YouTube video though.

wes · 08-08-2017 11:09PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Don't think it would be smart of them. It would get them some headlines for censoring him a second time.

Sure, they may just turn off ads and blame the algorithms instead

.

Bob24 wrote: »

But as you said it would be smarter of him to stay clear from Google's platform if he is suing them. First think I'd do is migrating all my personal data to competing services, deleting all I can from Google (though I'm sure they have access to backups) and log out of the account forever to make sure my activity isn't tracked.

Yeah, that would be the smart thing to do. Giving Google so much personal info, while your suing them, would be one of the dumbest things someone could do.

wes · 09-08-2017 01:17AM

Some more info on his chances in regards to a legal case:

GOOGLE MANIFESTO AUTHOR JUST MIGHT HAVE A LEGAL CASE

Some interesting bits:

California is an "at-will" state, meaning Google can dismiss an employee for almost any reason. However, Damore says that before he was fired, he filed a complaint, formally known as a charge, with the National Labor Relations Board, which administers some aspects of federal labor law. Under the National Labor Relations Act, it's against federal law to fire someone in retaliation for filing a complaint to the board, lawyers say.

If he can prove he was fired for a complaint, then Google is in trouble.

However, looks like the timing for that maybe off:

A person at Google familiar with the matter said Damore's dismissal could not have been retaliation for his NLRB complaint because the company only learned of the complaint after Damore was fired.

Also, even if he has a case (and wins), his claims about his qualifications discussed earlier could bite him in the ass:

Rishi Bhandari, a partner at New York law firm Mandel Bhandari who previously practiced in California, says Google's position will likely be that it fired Damore because his memo antagonized coworkers and contained factual inaccuracies, making it unprofessional. If Google had previously warned Damore about Code of Conduct or performance issues, that would bolster the company's defense, Bhandari says. He says the company could even cite reasons for dismissing Damore that it discovers after his firing; such evidence could limit any award to Damore if a court finds that Google did retaliate against him.

So legally not quite cut and dry as I taught, but still an up hill battle for Damore imo.

Bob24 · 09-08-2017 03:20AM

wes wrote: »

Sure, they may just turn off ads and blame the algorithms instead .

Let's not keep assuming he is just driven by money through.

Yes he has to feed himself alright, but his attitude publishing this thing was more one of someone who is ready to take risks to get his point across (some will say he's just stupid, but I personally doubt he didn't realise this was controversial and could potentially cause him trouble). YouTube is probably the best video medium to do that for an individual.

Hastentoadd · 09-08-2017 03:57AM

As a company employee you are paid to do a job. Your opinion, while valued on a company product, is not valued on a political stance. If you dont like the values of the company then move job. As an employee you have no right to publicize a viewpoint about your employer. If you feel strongly about the issue you bring it to a tribunal. You certainly dont voice your opinions in such a naive fashion.

I may or may not agree with what this person suggests. I certainly do not agree on how this person put their feelings forward. With any semblance of intelligence, this person could have brought the argument into a domain where he/she could have provided change. Instead they got fired for their juvenile behaviour. And may they learn from it. Its not about keeping your mouth shut. Its about knowing when to open it

suicide_circus · 09-08-2017 07:41AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/larissa-nolan-political-correctness-will-hurt-us-all-in-the-end-1.3180394?mode=amp

Hector Savage · 09-08-2017 07:55AM

https://youtu.be/sGBM47Bg3Nc

They even have a Vice President of "Diversity" ? what the f*ck is that ? they actually get paid millions for this **** ?

Google - Hire the best people, and the diversity will sort itself out, great people everywhere!!!

This situation is Orwellian

Bob24 · 09-08-2017 08:23AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/larissa-nolan-political-correctness-will-hurt-us-all-in-the-end-1.3180394?mode=amp

Glad to read this in a paper which is amongst the worst offenders in the country. At least some people in there realise it and are not happy about it.

Having said that publishing her piece might just be an excuse not to change anything (some of the liberal elite also understands what's going on but as opposed to her they are quietly rejoicing about it and encouraging it).

Bob24 · 09-08-2017 08:37AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://youtu.be/sGBM47Bg3Nc

They even have a Vice President of "Diversity" ? what the f*ck is that ? they actually get paid millions for this **** ?

Google - Hire the best people, and the diversity will sort itself out, great people everywhere!!!

This situation is Orwellian

It won't happen anytime soon at Google as they have a very young workforce, but I'm actually waiting to see what happens when gender imbalance goes the other way in other instutitions.

Take universities globally: a large part of the older staff is masculine, so in many parts of academia there is an implicit or explicit priority given to women when hiring junior lecturers in order to reach an overall figure of 50/50 as soon as possible.

But what happens when all the old professors start to retire and the next generation is now a majority of women? (I.e. the retirement will mechanically create imbalance) Then you are in a vicious cirlcle whereby if you still want to maintain balance you now have to give priority to men. So in the long run the original obsession with addressing gender imbalance as fast as possible condemned you to make one's gender a desired qualification for the jobs you advertise - which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place!

suicide_circus · 09-08-2017 08:42AM

^^^^for some reason I don't foresee a scramble to reset the gender gap if females become the majority in academia/business.

Bob24 · 09-08-2017 09:08AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

^^^^for some reason I don't foresee a scramble to reset the gender gap if females become the majority in academia/business.

As I said ... I'm waiting to see what happens :-)

Hastentoadd · 09-08-2017 09:11AM

Bob24 wrote: »

It won't happen anytime soon at Google as they have a very young workforce, but I'm actually waiting to see what happens when gender imbalance goes the other way in other instutitions.

Take universities globally: a large part of the older staff is masculine, so in many parts of academia there is an implicit or explicit priority given to women when hiring junior lecturers in order to reach an overall figure of 50/50 as soon as possible.

But what happens when all the old professors start to retire and the next generation is now a majority of women? (I.e. the retirement will mechanically create imbalance) Then you are in a vicious cirlcle whereby if you still want to maintain balance you now have to give priority to men. So in the long run the original obsession with addressing gender imbalance as fast as possible condemned you to make one's gender a desired qualification for the jobs you advertise - which is exactly what you were trying to avoid in the first place!

As the email clearly points out, a womans brain would not be a good fit for an intellectual position.

strandroad · 09-08-2017 09:40AM

Looks like his issues with women started well before Google's diversity programmes.

http://gizmodo.com/fired-google-memo-writer-took-part-in-controversial-s-1797658885

According to emails provided to Gizmodo, Andrew Murray and Tim Mitchison, the co-directors of the Systems Biology Program at Harvard—which Damore attended for two years before leaving the program and starting his career at Google—issued a formal apology to a number of students for a student skit performed at the 2012 Systems Biology Program Retreat. According to two sources, Damore was the primary performer in the skit.

In an email dated October 15, 2012, nine days after the conclusion of the retreat, Murray and Mitchison wrote that the skit “presented material that offended many members of our community” and emphasized that even in the context of a humorous skit, “targeting any group within the program that can be defined by gender, by ethnicity, by sexual orientation, or by religious orientation, is never acceptable.”
...
A source who spoke under the condition of anonymity because they did not want their name associated with the current controversy surrounding Damore said that Damore participated in the writing, arranging, casting, and performing of the skit, which they described as “sexist” in nature. According to the source, a short humorous skit is typically performed by students during the annual retreat, and while they described the skits as typically a “roast,” they emphasized that “the goal is not to offend.” Damore participated in the writing of the skit, along with other program students, but according to two sources, Damore was the primary performer during the skit when it was performed. The source noted that in the “particular year in which James played a role organizing, [the skit] was particularly offensive to women.”

Three sources allege that Damore told what they characterized as a masturbation-related joke during the course of the performance, which fell flat and offended some in the audience. However, two sources attributed the backlash to the performance not to any malice on the part of Damore, but instead to his awkward delivery.

Hastentoadd · 09-08-2017 09:45AM

working for google is an interesting challenge. their opinion is constantly in flux.

TheDoc · 09-08-2017 10:02AM

Bob24 wrote: »

That's the crazy thing here: people can't even agree on what he did or did not say (I also don't see any clear pledge against diversity or insinuations that women are inferior, but clearly some people do though I don't believe that have quoted what exact statements they have a problem with).

Not even agreeing in what the message is kind of prevents from having any productive discussion about wether it was appropriate or not :-s

It was not appropriate.

There is no discussion here on the appropriateness

TheDoc · 09-08-2017 10:03AM

JRant wrote: »

Not at all, he clear states there are differences 'on average' between the sexes and uses the big 5 personality traits to explain these. This is not some basement dweller spouting about d'wimmins. His is citing we'll established findings that there are indeed differences between the sexes ' on average'.

The mistake he made was thinking Google was diverse enough to tolerate anything that goes against the group-think mentality

The mistake he made was thinking that sharing internally a document that belittles and discredits female colleagues in certain roles, and creates a hostile environment for woman, along with making himself isolated, was ok.

I'm questioning if the people perplexed at how he was fired, have a)Actually ever worked in a job b) Ever worked in a diverse office environment

angryIreGamer · 09-08-2017 10:07AM

everyone knows women have tiny brains and cannot problem solve, cannot partake in construction or mechanical environments because they are biologically wired to only be able concentrate on things like raising a family, or education, or cooking.

Its been super scientifically proven, again and again:
Link1
Link2

conorhal · 09-08-2017 10:15AM

strandroad wrote: »

Looks like his issues with women started well before Google's diversity programmes.

http://gizmodo.com/fired-google-memo-writer-took-part-in-controversial-s-1797658885

Really? because to me it looks like he was part of a comedy skit 5 years ago that had a crap joke about **** in it which caused 'somebody' to clutch their pearls.
Yez are gettting pretty desperate in your witch-hunt. But sure, why not 'Gizmodo: Proof that Google Employee Hates Women!' (story below) :rolleyes:

If somebody was to pour through 5 years of your internet history, posts and interactions do you think there's a chance you might have made a crass joke about **** somewhere that would justify your being attacked by the press as a hater of women?

Frankly, it really says something about this witch hunt that the blokes attackers are pouring over his CV and college skits to justify firing the guy but have little to say about the actual document.
I know Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible', about the Salem witch trials, was a thinly veiled allegory about McCarthyism, but if he were writing it today I'd say it would have some pointed things to say about the left.

“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber” memo goes viral, usual suspects outraged

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