Brexit discussion thread II

First Up · 01-08-2017 12:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

seeing as Rugby and football teams currently recruit players from Fiji, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Japan .....

Who need work permits.

Fratton Fred · 01-08-2017 01:03PM

First Up wrote: »

Who need work permits.

yes, that was the point.

There are players of many sports in the UK from lots and lots of countries outside of the eu. I doubt there are any overseas cricketers in the county championship that are from eu countries (with obvious exception to Ireland).

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

ArmaniJeanss · 01-08-2017 01:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes, that was the point.

There are players of many sports in the UK from lots and lots of countries outside of the eu. I doubt there are any overseas cricketers in the county championship that are from eu countries (with obvious exception to Ireland).

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

Lots of those county cricket players from SA and Caribbean are in the UK under the Kolpak ruling though. That's an ECJ ruling so isn't going to apply post Brexit.

Water John · 01-08-2017 01:52PM

The DUP boys wouldn't want to be drawing too much attention to themselves. There might be a bit more investigation of Brexit funds running through their accounts.

steddyeddy · 01-08-2017 02:02PM

Just to defend the English for a minute. Most people are disgusted by the Tory-DUP pact. The only people who defend it are nationalists and chavs (English for scumbag). The dregs of society so to speak.

First Up · 01-08-2017 02:09PM

Fratton Fred wrote:

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

But it means that after Brexit, EU nationals will need a work permit to play for UK teams. There are strict criteria applied by the FA to non-EU nationals that currently don't apply to French,Spanish, Belgian etc players. We'll have to see if the same rules are applied to them as they are to Africans and Asians who play for English clubs.

Rugby (Union and League) will have its own issues to sort.

johnnyskeleton · 01-08-2017 02:44PM

Water John wrote: »

The DUP boys wouldn't want to be drawing too much attention to themselves. There might be a bit more investigation of Brexit funds running through their accounts.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just to defend the English for a minute. Most people are disgusted by the Tory-DUP pact. The only people who defend it are nationalists and chavs (English for scumbag). The dregs of society so to speak.

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again re: standards. The whole thread has been in a bit of a decline to be honest, so I'd ask all posters to try to keep posts to relevant and substantial contributions.

wes · 01-08-2017 04:45PM

Some interesting new polls from yougov:

Brexit: Majority of older Leave voters say significant economic damage is 'price worth paying', finds YouGov

Astonishing to see those who are retired willing to sacrifice the jobs of the young for Brexit. Its basically generational warfare and shows just how selfish some of the older generation of Brexiters are.

swampgas · 01-08-2017 05:22PM

wes wrote: »

Some interesting new polls from yougov:

Brexit: Majority of older Leave voters say significant economic damage is 'price worth paying', finds YouGov

Astonishing to see those who are retired willing to sacrifice the jobs of the young for Brexit. Its basically generational warfare and shows just how selfish some of the older generation of Brexiters are.

It would be interesting to find out what's motivating them though.

It may have something to do with the fact the the UK today doesn't feel (to them) like the UK they grew up in. They may feel that immigration has changed everything so much that they don't feel at home in the UK any more. They may feel that by cutting themselves off from the EU that the country will go back to the way it was before and become a more familiar place. And they may feel that their kids would be better off unemployed in the UK of their youth rather than employed in the UK of today.

I'll stop playing amateur psychologist now - I have no idea what's really going on.

steddyeddy · 01-08-2017 06:20PM

Ireland bids for European Medicines Agency and Banking Authority. From a scientists view I hope we get the EMA. I'm doubtful about the EBA. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40788021

The Irish government has formally bid to host two major EU bodies that will be relocated from London after Brexit.
The European Banking Authority (EBA) and European Medicines Agency (EMA), based in Canary Wharf in London, employ more than 1,000 staff between them.

sondagefaux · 01-08-2017 07:22PM

swampgas wrote: »

It would be interesting to find out what's motivating them though.

It may have something to do with the fact the the UK today doesn't feel (to them) like the UK they grew up in. They may feel that immigration has changed everything so much that they don't feel at home in the UK any more. They may feel that by cutting themselves off from the EU that the country will go back to the way it was before and become a more familiar place. And they may feel that their kids would be better off unemployed in the UK of their youth rather than employed in the UK of today.

I'll stop playing amateur psychologist now - I have no idea what's really going on.

At the very least, they're incredibly selfish.

What motivates them? Based on my experience of older British people's opinions, think it is a rejection of the world as it is today.

If you ever get the chance to listen to a group of British pensioners, being in the EU is only part of their generalised distaste for the modern world: they'd also gladly bring back hanging, abolish same-sex marriage, yearn for the days when a woman's place was in the home and hate 'PC gone mad', i.e, they want it to be socially acceptable to be openly racist, homophobic, anti-semitic and sexist.

You'll find similar views in all age groups but nothing like to the extent to which they prevail among the over 65s.

You see a similar pattern when it comes to support for the Conservatives vs support for Labour.

Class is no longer the great divide in English and Welsh society, age is.

Identification as nationalist (or 'liberal unionist') as opposed to identification as unionist remains the biggest divide in Northern Ireland.

I can't see this changing in the future - the UK is an ageing society and the reduction in immigration that withdrawal from the EU will bring will only hasten that process.

A society of older people who hate the changes that young people want: basically Ireland in the 1950s and/or Poland today, exacerbated in 1950s Ireland and today's Poland by massive emigration of younger people, quite possibly the UK's fate after Brexit, not helped by the fact that nearly all pensioners vote while younger people (especially those in the 18-24 age group) aren't anywhere near as keen on voting.

Eventually enough of these angry older people will die to permit the UK to change, but it might take another generation or longer unless younger people get off their arses and start voting for parties and candidates who represent what they want.

If I was a young British person I'd be looking very seriously for ways to get the hell out.

Professor Moriarty · 01-08-2017 08:25PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

At the very least, they're incredibly selfish.

What motivates them? Based on my experience of older British people's opinions, think it is a rejection of the world as it is today.

If you ever get the chance to listen to a group of British pensioners, being in the EU is only part of their generalised distaste for the modern world: they'd also gladly bring back hanging, abolish same-sex marriage, yearn for the days when a woman's place was in the home and hate 'PC gone mad', i.e, they want it to be socially acceptable to be openly racist, homophobic, anti-semitic and sexist.

You'll find similar views in all age groups but nothing like to the extent to which they prevail among the over 65s.

You see a similar pattern when it comes to support for the Conservatives vs support for Labour.

Class is no longer the great divide in English and Welsh society, age is.

Identification as nationalist (or 'liberal unionist') as opposed to identification as unionist remains the biggest divide in Northern Ireland.

I can't see this changing in the future - the UK is an ageing society and the reduction in immigration that withdrawal from the EU will bring will only hasten that process.

A society of older people who hate the changes that young people want: basically Ireland in the 1950s and/or Poland today, exacerbated in 1950s Ireland and today's Poland by massive emigration of younger people, quite possibly the UK's fate after Brexit, not helped by the fact that nearly all pensioners vote while younger people (especially those in the 18-24 age group) aren't anywhere near as keen on voting.

Eventually enough of these angry older people will die to permit the UK to change, but it might take another generation or longer unless younger people get off their arses and start voting for parties and candidates who represent what they want.

If I was a young British person I'd be looking very seriously for ways to get the hell out.

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

sondagefaux · 01-08-2017 08:51PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

Planet Brexit.

50% of those aged 65+ would be okay with a family member losing their job if that's the price to be paid to bring the UK out of the EU.

Of course hardly any of this age group have jobs as they're almost all retired or will by by the time Brexit happens in 2019.

The contempt of many of the older generation for the modern world is so great that they would prefer to see their children and grandchildren actively harmed rather than have to put up with it.

Unless younger people start voting in greater proportions, these people will always hold the balance of power and they will always be pandered to by politicians who, after all, will do everything they can to please people who actually get out and vote.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-08-2017 08:53PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

The planet where they have defined benefit pensions or at least triple lock ones. The NHS is still free. Many have free travel and most have no mortgage. No kids , no back to school costs, no childminder expenses. They are the generation that never had it so good, full employment in the 1960's, no degree needed, and many would have been in stable employment though tougher times later when there were few jobs for new entrants to the job market.

Typical pensioner incomes after housing costs now outstrip those of working-age people, a new report suggests.

"We can't assume either that young people today will be able to draw upon the kind of wealth that recent pensioners have accumulated, given the recent fall in home ownership and decline in generous defined benefit schemes."

NB these are not the people who fought in WWII , they voted to remain

Billy86 · 01-08-2017 08:55PM

It's a standard modern right wing mindset to be honest - only look after myself, but expect everyone else to look after me and most of all... it's always somebody else's fault. Give it a few years and see exactly how happy they are about having benefits, pensions, etc stripped and being left desolate in their old age. I get the feeling though, they won't be looking to place any blame on their decision to leave to EU. Because it's always somebody else's fault.

Capt'n Midnight · 01-08-2017 09:01PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ireland bids for European Medicines Agency and Banking Authority. From a scientists view I hope we get the EMA. I'm doubtful about the EBA.

Brexiteers might have to get used to hearing stuff like

"We're getting a new Medicines Agency and you're paying for it."

Capt'n Midnight · 01-08-2017 09:17PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I wouldn't assume that at all.

The US, for example, has a "highly talented" visa class under which foreign performers, sportspersons, computer whizzes, etc - experts in pretty well any field - can get visas to work in the US. This is good for the US because it allows them to tap into the world's best talent in any field, and it's good for US business, institutions, etc for the same reason. It's not mutual or reciprocal, because it's good for the US regardless of whether US experts are also free to go and work in Umbrellastan, or wherever. So this is a unilateral stance by the US, and it applies to the whole world.

I'd expect the UK to introduce something similar, if needed.

If needed ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/eu-workers-leave-uk-deloitte-brexit

The consultancy firm Deloitte found 47% of highly skilled workers from the EU were considering leaving the UK in the next five years.
...
Overall, 36% of non-British workers in the UK said they were thinking of leaving within the same period, representing 1.2m jobs out of 3.4 million migrant workers in the UK.
...
Other research has suggested vacancies are getting harder to fill with one recent poll by the Recruitment and Employment Confederation flagging skills shortages across a range of more than 60 roles.

The UK barely have enough bodies to fill the shortage if those mmigrants leave, nevermind the lack of skills amongst the "long term unemployable" .
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/july2017

There were 1.49 million unemployed people (people not in work but seeking and available to work

BTW that's 3.4 million migrant workers out 32.01 employed.

Jim2007 · 02-08-2017 08:06AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The US, for example, has a "highly talented" visa class under which foreign performers, sportspersons, computer whizzes, etc - experts in pretty well any field - can get visas to work in the US.

And in the EU we have the Blue Card.....

sondagefaux · 02-08-2017 10:53AM

One of the arguments that was used during the referendum was that the EU, especially the eurozone, was in terminal decline and that the UK would be better off out of the EU instead of being 'shackled' to a declining continent.

Over one year after the referendum, and quite unsurprisingly really, the eurozone is now growing twice as fast as the UK:

The European recovery (apart from Britain) looks more impressive each time you look. Second-quarter GDP growth numbers for the eurozone and the EU as a whole, out on Tuesday, confirm this: the economy of the monetary union grew 0.6 per cent in the quarter, twice the UK’s pace of growth. Some eurozone countries have also posted impressive data, with Spain accelerating its already impressive growth streak and France maintaining its decent expansion.

The growth figures are backed up by good numbers more or less wherever else in the economy you care to look. The European Commission’s economic sentiment index is the highest it has been in a decade. Unemployment is falling in every European country (with the exception of Estonia).

...

All these countries still suffer from unconscionably high unemployment. But the speed with which jobs are returning is something to behold, as the detailed breakdown of the latest EU joblessness numbers shows. In just the past 12 months, Spain has cut its unemployment rate by 2.8 percentage points, Portugal by 2.1 points and Greece 1.9 points. These are big reductions. Even Italy has reduced unemployment by 0.6 percentage points in a year. For the eurozone as a whole, the number unemployed has fallen by 1.5m people in a year. In all cases except Greece, the decline in the youth unemployment rate is even greater.

There are two important lessons here. The first is simply to recognise that this is an impressive recovery even if the level of economic activity in the periphery still leaves a lot to be desired. It’s quite clear that unemployment is far too high across a swath of countries on the eurozone rim; but that should not detract from the progress that is finally being made.

https://www.ft.com/content/2a925752-7699-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71

Jim2007 · 02-08-2017 11:14AM

sondagefaux wrote: »

One of the arguments that was used during the referendum was that the EU, especially the eurozone, was in terminal decline and that the UK would be better off out of the EU instead of being 'shackled' to a declining continent.

The thing is that was never seen in a true light - the reality is that the U.K. has not produced a positive balance of trade in well over 20 years, while all of the other economies have done so. Even Italy does so from time to time. One of the other gems I picked up on at the time as well was that when it came to closing the deal, the U.K. was ranked third last of the member states just above Malta and Greece!

It takes years to negotiate trade deals and years after that for companies to build up the trade after that. So how you can expect to leave a major trading block accounting for about 48% of your exports and do better when you are exhibiting none of the skills necessary to do it is beyond me.

sondagefaux · 02-08-2017 03:20PM

Recently the Schengen countries (most of which are in the EU, but also inlcuding Iceland, Norway, Switzerland) introduced tougher controls at airports for passengers arriving from non-Schengen countries, including EU but non-Schengen countries, such as the UK.

The resulting queues have led to some choice comments.

LeinsterDub · 02-08-2017 03:21PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. IAG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

demfad · 02-08-2017 03:35PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. AIG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

Aer Lingus?

joeysoap · 02-08-2017 03:40PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Recently the Schengen countries (most of which are in the EU, but also inlcuding Iceland, Norway, Switzerland) introduced tougher controls at airports for passengers arriving from non-Schengen countries, including EU but non-Schengen countries, such as the UK.

The resulting queues have led to some choice comments.

Aren't we subject to the same regulations? There's a seperate thread on boards about the delays at immigration at Dublin airport. Perhaps we should join Shengen?

murphaph · 02-08-2017 03:42PM

I guess IAG (owner of BA, Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vuelling) was intended.

LeinsterDub · 02-08-2017 03:44PM

murphaph wrote: »

I guess IAG (owner of BA, Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vuelling) was intended.

Yes the airline not the insurance group

sondagefaux · 02-08-2017 04:02PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. IAG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

He's also claming that some EU airlines are pushing for an arrangement that would be unacceptable to the UK in order to prevent UK airlines from exercising the EU's freedoms after Brexit.

European airlines are opposed to the UK getting "any favourable deal" to secure air routes after Brexit, Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has warned.

The carrier's chief executive said EU airlines are "actively campaigning" for the UK to be offered a bilateral agreement which would be "almost unacceptable" to those in favour of a so-called hard Brexit.

The single market for aviation, created in the 1990s, means there are no commercial restrictions for airlines flying within the EU.

Mr O'Leary again warned that flights between the UK and the EU will be grounded in summer 2019 if no deal is reached by September next year.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0802/894743-eu-airlines-opposed-to-uk-getting-any-favourable-deal/

Only to be expected really.

Why should UK airlines get all the benefits of EU arrangements unless they're subject to the ECJ if there's a dispute?

Junkyard Tom · 02-08-2017 04:27PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

One of the arguments that was used...

Another one was the UK's 'impressive' comaprative unemployment numbers which, of course, completely ignores the nature of the employment, the rate of remuneration, and so on.

Jim2007 · 02-08-2017 06:11PM

Nody wrote: »

But on the flip side how is DUP suppose to sell a hard Irish border when they got people who're farming on both sides of the border currently? No matter how you try to set the border DUP ends up in an impossible position that will alienate part of their base.

This holds true for the whole of the U.K. If things continue as they are, then the first real physical impact will be towards the second half of next year when it becomes impossible to book flights out of the U.K. The business trips, the ski trips, the Christmas markets and the week in the sun will involve a trip to Dublin if you live up North. If you are on mainland UK it will a ferry to Dublin, the French coast or the train to Paris. It will be more expensive and the capacity is not there.

The other thing of course is that even if they could fly, they don't have any agreement that would allow to enter the Schengen Area nor the EU. Now given that airlines are responsible for the cost of landing an illegal, I'd expect airlines will start to refuse bookings for any flights after 31st of Mar.

I think it is only at this point that voters will really start to realize what BREXIT really means.

I saw it with anti FMOP voters here in Switzerland, they were all very happy with their win, until students started to get rejected for the Erasmus program. Then they suddenly woke up to what it means to break a bilateral with the EU.

PeadarCo · 02-08-2017 06:32PM

Jim2007 wrote:

I think it is only at this point that voters will really start to realize what BREXIT really means.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the impact of Brexit really hits. Currently there has been no serious shocks. The issues like weak sterling and associated inflation have been incremental. In a years time we'll really see how serious the UK is about Brexit as the shocks begin to come its way. That's assuming the UK government continues with its current mess of Brexit negotiation(or lack of)

Brexit discussion thread II

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