Summer transfer thread 17/18 season (NEYMAR TALK IN OTHER THREAD)

TitianGerm · 15-07-2017 09:47AM

Gbear wrote: »

If you're looking at stats, Walker was the no1 creator of chances from full back last season.
2 and 3 were Clyne and Milner.

I'm surprised by Clyne being number two. He's been slated in the Liverpool thread because he doesn't create enough. The general opinion was he's very solid defensively but lacking going forward.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 10:23AM

emmetkenny wrote: »

I'm surprised by Clyne being number two. He's been slated in the Liverpool thread because he doesn't create enough. The general opinion was he's very solid defensively but lacking going forward.

He is.

He's just next to Mane often enough to bask in his reflected glow.

Edit: I read those stats backwards and wrongly.

Walker is 4th, Clyne is 3rd, Baines is 2nd, Milner was 1st (he takes most of our set pieces).

It was also only stats for defenders.

doc_17 · 15-07-2017 10:59AM

It's funny that Liverpool turned down £11m for Moreno yet are signing his replacement for £8m.

Jayop · 15-07-2017 11:04AM

emmetkenny wrote: »

I haven't really seen him play to much but from the articles I've read it it seems he'd be a great addition.

£65m is massive money for Liverpool though and we can't really afford to have a player for that money fail if he does sign.

Same as. Haven't seem him so can't really comment. Ye don't have a great record with big money signings really but this one is completely different from Benteke and Carroll. This looks like a proper scouted player rather than a panic buy.

Jayop · 15-07-2017 11:06AM

On the price of the fullback thing. For. Me full backs are the same as goalies to a degree. Everyone knows they're important but for some reason they never go for the money that a similarly talented or important player in any other positions go for.

Also aren't all full backs just failed wingers or center halves?

castletownman · 15-07-2017 11:14AM

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Barca/Bayern amongst the best defensive sides of their respective generations all while playing open, attractive and skilful football. Try again.

Bayern. Treble winners the year before he joined. Largely sauntered to a CL title too. Inherited Lahm, Alaba and the core of solid defenders.

Barca already had in situ Puyol, Marquez. Admitedly, he made Alves a key part of their set-up.

But it's not too far a stretch to harbour doubts about the defensive solidity of City despite the investment. Walker was always regarded as decent (not excellent btw) going forward, but suspect in the bread and butter. Quick glance at the Spurs thread would back that up too (even if some of the opinions are borne out of him leaving).

Hard to know how quickly Mendy will acclimatise to the PL too. Jury is still out on Stones. Otamendi has got skinned alive on numerous occasions by players with any sort of pace. Yes,Kompany is undoubted class but question marks surrounding his fitness. And then there's Ederson and the massive transfer fee for a relative unknown.

The outlay really seems crazy because as things stand they don't look any more formidable back there. One things for certain though, their games will be a good bet for over 2.5 goals.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 15-07-2017 11:14AM

Jayop wrote: »

On the price of the fullback thing. For. Me full backs are the same as goalies to a degree. Everyone knows they're important but for some reason they never go for the money that a similarly talented or important player in any other positions go for.

Also aren't all full backs just failed wingers or center halves?

Would you class Gary Neville as a failed CB or just a great defender who wasn't tall enough to play CB full time?

FB is a fairly specialised position and has a huge difference in responsibilities depending on the style of play the team practices. Some have to be out-and-out defenders while others are decent defenders who have an adequate/good/great ability to offer an attacking option. It all depends on what they can bring to the team.

Prices are just mind boggling in every position this year so I am just switching off even thinking about the price at this stage.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 11:22AM

castletownman wrote: »

Bayern. Treble winners the year before he joined. Largely sauntered to a CL title too. Inherited Lahm, Alaba and the core of solid defenders.

Barca already had in situ Puyol, Marquez. Admitedly, he made Alves a key part of their set-up.

But it's not too far a stretch to harbour doubts about the defensive solidity of City despite the investment. Walker was always regarded as decent (not excellent btw) going forward, but suspect in the bread and butter. Quick glance at the Spurs thread would back that up too (even if some of the opinions are borne out of him leaving).

Pep teams and Barca in general haven't been defensively solid. They've been miserly with possession.

We've repeatedly seen them blown apart by top class teams suited to dealing with them, or when they're on off days.

With most teams they face, they never get the ball to cause any problems, or they're already 3-0 down before they even know what's happened, but we've seen numerous times the defence making an absolute balls of things and giving away easy goals.

Their defence isn't put under pressure much. That's the strength of the strategy.
You can afford to leave your full backs up the pitch because you're not losing the ball all the time and mitigation is with sweeper-keepers and pacy defenders or by the enormous safety net of already being multiple goals to the good.

TitianGerm · 15-07-2017 11:25AM

Jayop wrote: »

Same as. Haven't seem him so can't really comment. Ye don't have a great record with big money signings really but this one is completely different from Benteke and Carroll. This looks like a proper scouted player rather than a panic buy.

We haven't had many big signings. Carroll was a panic buy after Torres left and Benteke is a very good player but was never going to suit our play style. Mane did ok last season though.

I hope the transfer goes through but because of the fee you could see some of the fans getting on his back if he doesn't hit the ground running.

eagle eye · 15-07-2017 12:21PM

Gbear wrote: »

Pep teams and Barca in general haven't been defensively solid. They've been miserly with possession.

We've repeatedly seen them blown apart by top class teams suited to dealing with them, or when they're on off days.

With most teams they face, they never get the ball to cause any problems, or they're already 3-0 down before they even know what's happened, but we've seen numerous times the defence making an absolute balls of things and giving away easy goals.

Their defence isn't put under pressure much. That's the strength of the strategy.
You can afford to leave your full backs up the pitch because you're not losing the ball all the time and mitigation is with sweeper-keepers and pacy defenders or by the enormous safety net of already being multiple goals to the good.

We've seen it but 'repeatedly' is going way, way over the top.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 12:37PM

eagle eye wrote: »

We've seen it but 'repeatedly' is going way, way over the top.

I hadn't realised the 7-0 was so long ago (12/13).
It's 4 or 5 instances since then. Leicester was another example although it was at a lower level with a lower calibre of footballers in defence so less relevant.

I think the general point still stands though. That many heavy defeats for teams that are that good is anomalous in my eyes.

When they crumble, they crumble hard.

Part of it is the pace and quality of European football these days and you can be 2 or 3 down before you have time to blink but the way in which you see teams like Barca and Bayern following Pep or Pep-like models being exposed on the counter-attack does not, for me, suggest defensive solidity in the commonly understood sense of the word.

The kind of football that Pep plays seems to be on a more acute bell curve than teams that play deeper with full backs who don't play as wingers.

tastyt · 15-07-2017 12:52PM

Lads, the point is it doesn't matter about the price. Money means nothing anymore in the premier league because its swimming in it.

The fact is, last season city were shocking at full back and goalkeeper. This season it looks like they will have mendy and walker left and right and a hugely rated goalkeeper between the sticks. Do they care how much that costs if it wins them trophies?

Absolutely not.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 01:01PM

tastyt wrote: »

Lads, the point is it doesn't matter about the price. Money means nothing anymore in the premier league because its swimming in it.

The fact is, last season city were shocking at full back and goalkeeper. This season it looks like they will have mendy and walker left and right and a hugely rated goalkeeper between the sticks. Do they care how much that costs if it wins them trophies?

Absolutely not.

That might be true in general, but is Kyle Walker the absolute best FB in the world?

And, while money might not matter to City, £50m strengthens Spurs more than losing Walker costs them if they invest it even moderately well.
Whether they like it or not, Spurs have finished above them 2 seasons on the trot and that's something they have to take into account.

ThunbergsAreGo · 15-07-2017 01:33PM

Gbear wrote: »

That might be true in general, but is Kyle Walker the absolute best FB in the world?

And, while money might not matter to City, £50m strengthens Spurs more than losing Walker costs them if they invest it even moderately well.
Whether they like it or not, Spurs have finished above them 2 seasons on the trot and that's something they have to take into account.

Given how Spurs have bought the last few years, moderately well might be difficult

Jayop · 15-07-2017 01:49PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Would you class Gary Neville as a failed CB or just a great defender who wasn't tall enough to play CB full time?

FB is a fairly specialised position and has a huge difference in responsibilities depending on the style of play the team practices. Some have to be out-and-out defenders while others are decent defenders who have an adequate/good/great ability to offer an attacking option. It all depends on what they can bring to the team.

Prices are just mind boggling in every position this year so I am just switching off even thinking about the price at this stage.

I'm taking the piss because that's exactly what Carragher said to Neville.

Jayop · 15-07-2017 01:52PM

Who did city buy for goals again?

NIMAN · 15-07-2017 01:53PM

Jayop wrote: »

Same as. Haven't seem him so can't really comment. Ye don't have a great record with big money signings really but this one is completely different from Benteke and Carroll. This looks like a proper scouted player rather than a panic buy.

This kinda sums up the madness in the transfer market these days.

You'd think if we are talking about a 65mill player, he'd be a household name and everyone would have seen him play.

For a guy to be worth that and be relatively unknown to football fans is crazy.

theoneeyedman · 15-07-2017 02:15PM

Gbear wrote: »

That might be true in general, but is Kyle Walker the absolute best FB in the world?

And, while money might not matter to City, £50m strengthens Spurs more than losing Walker costs them if they invest it even moderately well.
Whether they like it or not, Spurs have finished above them 2 seasons on the trot and that's something they have to take into account.

It's been a long standing tactic of City, buy an important player from a close rival. Did it for several years with arsenal when they were breaking into the champions league, and now it's Spurs.
The money is so crazy it's practically meaningless. Only in planet EPL is an ordinary enough player like walker worth that sort of money, buy in truth it's just silly stuff. We should stop counting or commenting on the prices, you'd be daft trying to rationalise it.

irishman86 · 15-07-2017 03:08PM

Gbear wrote: »

That might be true in general, but is Kyle Walker the absolute best FB in the world?

And, while money might not matter to City, £50m strengthens Spurs more than losing Walker costs them if they invest it even moderately well.
Whether they like it or not, Spurs have finished above them 2 seasons on the trot and that's something they have to take into account.

Id say hes the best in the league ahead of a fit Coleman
See all this nonsense that hes second choice to Trippier which is just bull****, he was dropped as everyone knew he was on his way

SlickRic · 15-07-2017 03:14PM

It's quite obvious Pep has been given a blank chequebook. Nothing wrong with that. It's an amazing position to be in.

However, what will bother me is if he beats all before him and he's lauded as a genius.

If any of the top 8 managers in the league were told to name whatever player they want, in whatever position they need, that is at all gettable, at whatever price, they'd all make a good fist of winning the League.

rwbug · 15-07-2017 03:17PM

https://twitter.com/City_Watch/status/886225068283580417

Agent Coulson · 15-07-2017 03:19PM

He is going to be loaned straight back out to City's new Spanish club Girona FC by all accounts.

NIMAN · 15-07-2017 03:21PM

SlickRic wrote: »

It's quite obvious Pep has been given a blank chequebook. Nothing wrong with that. It's an amazing position to be in.

However, what will bother me is if he beats all before him and he's lauded as a genius.

If any of the top 8 managers in the league were told to name whatever player they want, in whatever position they need, that is at all gettable, at whatever price, they'd all make a good fist of winning the League.

This is how football has run for several decades now.

There was a book written about it. There is a direct correlation between money spent and trophies won.

So we often hear how Pep, Jose, Ancelloti and the like are geniuses. Despite the fact that they are handed practically unlimited funds to buy the best. They don't ever accept jobs where money will be tight. They have to go to incredibly rich clubs, otherwise they might have to actually work a miracle and win by motivating players, tactics etc.

Its not often now, or recently, you can point to a manager that won the top trophies with a limited budget.

rwbug · 15-07-2017 03:33PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

He is going to be loaned straight back out to City's new Spanish club Girona FC by all accounts.

"The Club will make a further statement about Douglas’ immediate development pathway in the coming days"

Certainly looks like he is going to Girona, not sure he would get a work permit yet anyway. The fee is around £10 million.

blueser · 15-07-2017 03:46PM

Jayop wrote: »

Who did city buy for goals again?

Everyone and their dog knows we badly needed to upgrade the defence, which we're working on. Walker signed along with Ederson in goal, and hopefully Mendy to follow (and Bertrand?). We're not too shabbily served for attacking options, even allowing that, at the moment, we only have one out and out old fashioned striker in Kun. Sane, Sterling, Jesus, KDB, Spanish Dave, Silva mk II, Gundogan; they can all chip in with a few goals. Another front man wouldn't go amiss though. Sanchez, maybe? And rumours still persist that we're trying to snare Mbappe, though I think he'll end up at Madrid (he's supposed to idolise Zidane, isn't he?).

SlickRic · 15-07-2017 03:57PM

NIMAN wrote: »

This is how football has run for several decades now.

There was a book written about it. There is a direct correlation between money spent and trophies won.

So we often hear how Pep, Jose, Ancelloti and the like are geniuses. Despite the fact that they are handed practically unlimited funds to buy the best. They don't ever accept jobs where money will be tight. They have to go to incredibly rich clubs, otherwise they might have to actually work a miracle and win by motivating players, tactics etc.

Its not often now, or recently, you can point to a manager that won the top trophies with a limited budget.

Agreed.

They don't all command the same aura and myth around them that Pep does though. He's as much a chequebook manager when needs be as anyone else is my point.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 04:49PM

We have seen examples of managers who don't succeed or don't succeed on the same scale.

City have spent enough cash since they made that brilliant team that won their first title to have done far better but they haven't had the kind of consistent success you'd expect.
They've failed in recruitment and in on-pitch performances.
Benitez failed at Madrid despite having the best team in the world.
Mourinho has had astonishingly brilliant teams and/or loads of money and has failed to a greater or lesser extent in 5 of his last 7 seasons, whereas nobody can dispute the acheivement of back to back record-breaking titles with Chelsea, spending or no.
Pep when starting out didn't just win but won a treble and the consistent success at Barca went hand in hand with an era-defining brand of football.
His time at Bayern, on the other hand, was just hitting par to an extent that any competent manager could have. There were positives and things he did that others couldn't have, but nothing particularly important.

For Pep to be a success he can't just win a league, a domestic cup and nothing else in a 3 year spell at City, like Pellegrini or Mancini.
He needs to make a serious statement in Europe, win back to back titles, win the most dominant title ever or something else to justify backing him and I'm sure everyone and their dog realises that.

That's the measure of sucess in these allegedly top class managers and what they need to do to separate them for the Mancinis, Di Matteos and Pellegrinis.

Gbear · 15-07-2017 04:53PM

NIMAN wrote: »

They have to go to incredibly rich clubs, otherwise they might have to actually work a miracle and win by motivating players, tactics etc.

That isn't enough on it's own.

Leicester's title win was impressive but even so, it shows the limitations of the lack of quality in the low number of points they won the league with.

That and the fact they nearly got relegated the following season show that motivating and tacticing your way with less good players amounts to treading water.
In an anomalous season they were able to sustain it long enough to win a weak league but if you're expecting to make a serious title challenge 5 years on the bounce and win most of them then it'll never be enough.

Comic Book Guy · 15-07-2017 04:59PM

Bakayoko to Chelsea is official.

irishman86 · 15-07-2017 05:13PM

SlickRic wrote: »

It's quite obvious Pep has been given a blank chequebook. Nothing wrong with that. It's an amazing position to be in.

However, what will bother me is if he beats all before him and he's lauded as a genius.

If any of the top 8 managers in the league were told to name whatever player they want, in whatever position they need, that is at all gettable, at whatever price, they'd all make a good fist of winning the League.

Id say its more how he does it and how well he does in Europe rather than the actual winning of the league

Summer transfer thread 17/18 season (NEYMAR TALK IN OTHER THREAD)

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