Male Genital Mutilation - why is this allowed?

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 01:40PM

My last two boyfriends were both circumcised...and both Irish. The first one got it done as a baby for medical reasons. The second one had to get it done when he was in his 20s (I was with him at the time). Both reasons was because the skin was too tight around the foreskin and was incredibly uncomfortable....especially if they got an erection. One of the guys foreskin actually ripped while we were having sex, which is why he got it done in his 20s.

From a girls point of view, I actually prefer it circumcised!

@Ashbx
I think most Irish girls that have experience it also prefer it (although might be too shy to admit it). So thanks for being open about your view.
So would you get your son's done too? Or prefer your partner was?
This is something my wife finds ironic. Often women that have strong views against circumcision have never actually seen one, or experienced it. Often those that have, actually prefer it. I find men to be more apathetic about it generally, but women seem to have stronger views for and against it; maybe not so much when it comes to partners, but for their preference on getting sons done.
I was the first boyfriend my wife had that was circumcised, and she became pro-circumcision after that really. I think that is often the case, a girl experiences it; and then realises she actually prefers it.

zedhead · 19-05-2017 01:41PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

So I would say both my wife and I prefer it, and our sons are apathetic about it really. My wifes sister prefers it, and she thinks many other women would do to if they had experienced both and could choose.
Maybe the popularity of it is growing here? My wife seems to think many younger Irish women seem to be opting for it, for a number of reasons.

Parchment wrote: »

American women generally wont touch an uncircumcised man. Its seen as "dirty" there,

This is not a good enough reason to get your sons circumcised and I would be concerned if there are women out there expressing their preference in such a way and asking for men to get it done. It is the same as men asking women to get cosmetic surgery on their vulva's. There have been a few documentaries over the past few years on the increase in young women who are ashamed as to what their genitals look like and have been shamed by men (and women) into feeling self conscious enough to get surgery. I think its so sad and seeing things like this written when talking of circumcision show's it is not confined to women.

Having a preference is fine, but putting your children through unneccesary surgery for a cosmetic preference you hold is just madness. They may not share the preference, and in the future their partner may not share the preference (even though what a future partner thinks of your genitals really should not be any reason to alter them).

My mothers family are Jewish and even though my parents always raised us with no specific religion but influences from both sides, my mother had always said had she had a son he would have been circumcised 'just in case he decided he was jewish'. I have had so many arguments with her over this but as all her male family had it done she doesn't see it as a big deal. Probably lucky she had all daughters. Bar medical reasons, its absolute madness to perform this as standard on baby boys.

If men want to get it done as adults, that is their choice but I do think it falls into the category of elective cosmetic surgery (again not including real medical reasons).

Samuel T. Cogley · 19-05-2017 01:41PM

lawred2 wrote: »

either limited personal experience

She's called Lexie on a Rale...

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-05-2017 01:41PM

I'd generally be of the opinion that you should avoid cutting babies with sharp blades, just as a rule of thumb like.

I remember some scene in Sex and The City where the four gowlbags were sitting around talking about one of their newborn sons and whether or not to get him cut. One of the more obnoxious and very creepy (there was some line about how the child's mother didn't want his sexual partners thinking about him as an 'unwrapped twinkie or something) scenes I remember from that piece of **** show.

It was like they were toying with some mad idea, hey, what if I don't cut part of his dick off, wouldn't that be crazy? That's the bit that annoys me, that the weirdness of it is invisible because it's so embedded.

Adults want to get it done for whatever reason, let them go right ahead. Parents make the decision for their child because it's medically necessary, good parents. Just because it's the 'done thing' or because of some nonsense about hygiene or aesthetics? No, really don't agree with it. No genitals are ever going to win any beauty pageants like.

abbir · 19-05-2017 01:42PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

I chose to be circumcised at 25. My only regret is I didn't get it done sooner. It wasn't for medical or religious reasons; I just prefer the look and think it's cleaner. My wife agrees, and also thinks all boys should be done.

Could you imagine if men decided "I prefer this certain look on women, so therefore I will go and encourage everyone to get unnecessary surgery on baby girls. Tidy up the labia here a little bit."?

If you want to have a cosmetic procedure done to change your look when you're an adult, go ahead nobody is stopping you.

Performing unnecessary surgery on children is wrong. It takes away their bodily autonomy, causes pain to babies and it can even result in death or loss of penis.

lawred2 · 19-05-2017 01:43PM

unless there is a medical reason for doing so - doing that to your own children is fu(king barbaric and warped

For the life of me - thinking of your children in terms of having 'nice looking' cocks when they are older is as twisted as it gets...

"Oh Jeffrey, what if little James' willy is ugly? We'd have failed him Jeffrey, we must tidy him up down there"

Birneybau · 19-05-2017 01:44PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

Not weird at all really.
My wife saw a picture of Katy Perry and Orlando Bloom paddle boarding on Twitter.
She commented to me that the American women were going on about him not being circumcised.
Russell Brand is English (from Essex), and it's common knowledge that most English men are not circumcised.
Again it was actually my wife that commented that it goes to show some women are apathetic or actually prefer uncut men (in the case of Perry).
So the Twitter Americans that were going on about it, don't always represent the views of American women; in other words, they don't all prefer circumcised men.

You sound like an expert.

Samuel T. Cogley · 19-05-2017 01:45PM

Silas Future Spat wrote: »

Adults want to get it done for whatever reason, let them go right ahead. Parents make the decision for their child because it's medically necessary, good parents. Just because it's the 'done thing' or because of some nonsense about hygiene or aesthetics? No, really don't agree with it. No genitals are ever going to win any beauty pageants like.

I don't really have strong feelings eitherway tbh, more leaning towards why take the risk, however small. However in some cultures it would lead to a huge amount of bullying for the child - so it being the 'done thing' isn't always completely out there as a reason.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-05-2017 01:51PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

Take Katy Perry for example; was married to Russell Brand, and had a relationship with Orlando Bloom (both uncut).

One's a complete prick all right
Not sure about the other.

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 02:04PM

My wife wanted our sons done mainly so they would look the same as myself.
She thinks it looks better. I think if women are honest, most of them do too.
I think for mothers opting to have their sons done, the real main reason is they prefer the look; rather than cleanliness or medical benefits.
I don't think this should be a problem, the motivation behind why a parents chooses to get their son's done.
Personally I don't have a problem with someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery; whether its a nose job, boob job, labiaplasty, circumcision, etc.
That is their choice to do so, and I respect that. In the case of circumcision; then I think yes, the mother should have the right to choose what she prefers for her son.
Maybe my wife is more pro-circumcision than most women, but I think when women have experienced a circumcised one then they also prefer it and tend to go that way in their views too.
I know her sister has become more pro-circumcision after having her son done. Maybe that is just what happens. Women do it then prefer it, and influence others.
But I don't think wanting ones sons done as it looks better is any less valid reason than say thinking it is cleaner or has medical benefits. The reason isn't so important.

kunst nugget · 19-05-2017 02:11PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

My wife wanted our sons done mainly so they would look the same as myself.
She thinks it looks better. I think if women are honest, most of them do too.
I think for mothers opting to have their sons done, the real main reason is they prefer the look; rather than cleanliness or medical benefits.
I don't think this should be a problem, the motivation behind why a parents chooses to get their son's done.
Personally I don't have a problem with someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery; whether its a nose job, boob job, labiaplasty, circumcision, etc.
That is their choice to do so, and I respect that. In the case of circumcision; then I think yes, the mother should have the right to choose what she prefers for her son.
Maybe my wife is more pro-circumcision than most women, but I think when women have experienced a circumcised one then they also prefer it and tend to go that way in their views too.
I know her sister has become more pro-circumcision after having her son done. Maybe that is just what happens. Women do it then prefer it, and influence others.
But I don't think wanting ones sons done as it looks better is any less valid reason than say thinking it is cleaner or has medical benefits. The reason isn't so important.

I wouldn't have thought beyond a certain age that you'd be spending that much time staring at your sons' penises that you'd need to improve the aesthetics of them.

If you want to get it done as an informed adult for beauty reasons, go for it. I'm not down with it being performed on children for reasons other than it being medically necessary.

lawred2 · 19-05-2017 02:12PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

My wife wanted our sons done mainly so they would look the same as myself.
She thinks it looks better. I think if women are honest, most of them do too.
I think for mothers opting to have their sons done, the real main reason is they prefer the look; rather than cleanliness or medical benefits.
I don't think this should be a problem, the motivation behind why a parents chooses to get their son's done.
Personally I don't have a problem with someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery; whether its a nose job, boob job, labiaplasty, circumcision, etc.
That is their choice to do so, and I respect that. In the case of circumcision; then I think yes, the mother should have the right to choose what she prefers for her son.
Maybe my wife is more pro-circumcision than most women, but I think when women have experienced a circumcised one then they also prefer it and tend to go that way in their views too.
I know her sister has become more pro-circumcision after having her son done. Maybe that is just what happens. Women do it then prefer it, and influence others.
But I don't think wanting ones sons done as it looks better is any less valid reason than say thinking it is cleaner or has medical benefits. The reason isn't so important.

hmmmmm

I think you've got a weird pride thing going on about your children's willies looking like yours.

For me - I'd want to see some damn strong reasoning for subjecting my children to a surgeon's knife. Personally speaking - your's and your wife's reasoning wouldn't do it for me. Not even close.

Either way - hope the boys are ok.

zedhead · 19-05-2017 02:15PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

My wife wanted our sons done mainly so they would look the same as myself.
She thinks it looks better. I think if women are honest, most of them do too.
I think for mothers opting to have their sons done, the real main reason is they prefer the look; rather than cleanliness or medical benefits.
I don't think this should be a problem, the motivation behind why a parents chooses to get their son's done.

Would your wife be ok if you had a daughter and you said you wanted her vulva altered so it looked better? Would you be ok with that?

BlueStratos wrote: »

Personally I don't have a problem with someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery; whether its a nose job, boob job, labiaplasty, circumcision, etc.
That is their choice to do so, and I respect that. In the case of circumcision; then I think yes, the mother should have the right to choose what she prefers for her son.

Again nobody is saying that adult men can't choose to get it done for whatever reason. Would you be ok with parents choosing for their child to have a nose job as they don't like how their nose looks? Why is a circumcision ok for this reason?

BlueStratos wrote: »

Maybe my wife is more pro-circumcision than most women, but I think when women have experienced a circumcised one then they also prefer it and tend to go that way in their views too.
I know her sister has become more pro-circumcision after having her son done. Maybe that is just what happens. Women do it then prefer it, and influence others.

I don't think this is true and I don't know what you'd be basing it on (though from previous posts it seems to be on the fact that your wife and her sister prefer it, not a huge sample size) but even if I did have a preference - it would not be ok for me to try and influence someone into surgery based on that preference, especially not children who have no say in the matter.

kunst nugget · 19-05-2017 02:18PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

My wife wanted our sons done mainly so they would look the same as myself.
She thinks it looks better. I think if women are honest, most of them do too.
I think for mothers opting to have their sons done, the real main reason is they prefer the look; rather than cleanliness or medical benefits.
I don't think this should be a problem, the motivation behind why a parents chooses to get their son's done.
Personally I don't have a problem with someone choosing to have cosmetic surgery; whether its a nose job, boob job, labiaplasty, circumcision, etc.
That is their choice to do so, and I respect that. In the case of circumcision; then I think yes, the mother should have the right to choose what she prefers for her son.

Do you think I should have the right to give my underage daughter a boob job because I like big breasts?

pickarooney · 19-05-2017 02:19PM

Glenster wrote: »

Gross.

Gross, like eyelids?

tupenny · 19-05-2017 02:27PM

@Bluestratos, to me, your wife going around actively encouraging it for other people, her nephews etc is just weird!!

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 02:27PM

@zedhead
No, my wife wouldn't be OK with our daughter having a labiaplasty (if I wanted it). I would not want this either.
No, I would not be OK with parents choosing to give their child a nose job.
Circumcision is a different case to the above, and the law reflects this.
Yes, I think it is Ok for parents to choose to have their sons circumcised; for whatever reason, religious/cultural/medical/aesthetic.
I think it looks better, my wife concurs, and so we had our son's done. We are both happy with that decision, our sons are apathetic about it really.
My wife doesn't think there is anything wrong with a woman getting a labiaplasty/nose job/boob job, for aesthetic reasons when adult.
But of course doesn't think this should be a parents decision! And certainly not done to a child!
OK maybe a poor sample, basing what I am saying on my wife and her sister; but I am just giving the perspective from Irish women in their 30's for real. Rather than social media/social justice warrior views etc.
I think, and they concur on this; that often Irish women that have experienced both actually prefer circumcised. And then they go on to have their sons done as a result.
For example, my wife had never seen one before myself; but preferred it and got our sons done. Then her sister did the same; and so the trend goes on I think.
Her sister now tells her friends she prefers it and advises them to get partners and sons done etc.
I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as their opinions and preferences are based on their own personal experiences.
Maybe my wife is very pro-circumcision compared to her sister who is more moderate I suppose. But each to their own.
I don't mind what someone else's views are on the matter, I just know what I prefer really.

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 02:30PM

@kunstnugget
No, I think that would be wrong and illegal.
I think all men should be circumcised.
I do not agree with children having cosmetic surgery such as a boob job.
However, in the case of a cleft lip or cleft palate; for example; then yes I do agree with cosmetic surgery to make the child look better.
I hope you see there is a difference in the above cases.
I think most can see that circumcision and a boob job are too very different things.
It is ridiculous to even try to compare both as you have done.

lawred2 · 19-05-2017 02:33PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

@kunstnugget
No, I think that would be wrong and illegal.
I think all men should be circumcised.
I do not agree with children having cosmetic surgery such as a boob job.
However, in the case of a cleft lip or cleft palate; for example; then yes I do agree with cosmetic surgery to make the child look better.
I hope you see there is a difference in the above cases.
I think most can see that circumcision and a boob job are too very different things.
It is ridiculous to even try to compare both as you have done.

Well I'd think there is no difference between the two when the motivation is solely based upon aesthetics.

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 02:37PM

@tupenny
Well I agree with you to a degree. I am more moderate or apathetic about it really.
I mean, I didn't really care if her sister had her sons done etc. That is none of my business.
But she seems to be more pro-circumcision, in fact I sometimes wonder if she has developed a fetish for it or something.
I prefer it, she prefers it, and that is fine. But I don't think people should force their views on to another person really. But she likes to influence her girlfriends and sister etc.
I really don't know if this is a common thing that happens to women or not, I mean they experience it, then become a real fan of it, or develop a strong preference for it?
For example last summer we were on a naturist holiday in France, and she commented that she liked seeing all the circumcised boys walking around; which I did think was a weird thing to say.
I don't know really, maybe some women just have a real thing for it; in the same way as some men prefer big boobs etc.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-05-2017 02:38PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

For example, my wife had never seen one before myself;

Hmmmm
Or so she says....

zedhead · 19-05-2017 02:39PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

@zedhead
No, my wife wouldn't be OK with our daughter having a labiaplasty (if I wanted it). I would not want this either.
No, I would not be OK with parents choosing to give their child a nose job.
Circumcision is a different case to the above, and the law reflects this.
Yes, I think it is Ok for parents to choose to have their sons circumcised; for whatever reason, religious/cultural/medical/aesthetic.
I think it looks better, my wife concurs, and so we had our son's done. We are both happy with that decision, our sons are apathetic about it really.
My wife doesn't think there is anything wrong with a woman getting a labiaplasty/nose job/boob job, for aesthetic reasons when adult.
But of course doesn't think this should be a parents decision! And certainly not done to a child!
OK maybe a poor sample, basing what I am saying on my wife and her sister; but I am just giving the perspective from Irish women in their 30's for real. Rather than social media/social justice warrior views etc.
I think, and they concur on this; that often Irish women that have experienced both actually prefer circumcised. And then they go on to have their sons done as a result.
For example, my wife had never seen one before myself; but preferred it and got our sons done. Then her sister did the same; and so the trend goes on I think.
Her sister now tells her friends she prefers it and advises them to get partners and sons done etc.
I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as their opinions and preferences are based on their own personal experiences.
Maybe my wife is very pro-circumcision compared to her sister who is more moderate I suppose. But each to their own.
I don't mind what someone else's views are on the matter, I just know what I prefer really.

So ignorning the legal reasons - why do you see a difference in one procedure for cosmetic reasons and not another. I am genuinely curious?

You are giving the perspective of 2 irish women in their 30's. I am an Irish woman in my thirties as are a lot of my friends and none of us would have this preference. I would also be questioning my friendship with my friends if they advised me to get a future son circumcised because of their preference over how it looks.

I also don't see the problem with adults having cosmetic procedures, but I do question the society we live in that puts such a high value on outward appearance that there is such a prevalence for this. I wish so many people did not feel the need to get this done.

BlueStratos wrote: »

@kunstnugget
No, I think that would be wrong and illegal.
I think all men should be circumcised.
I do not agree with children having cosmetic surgery such as a boob job.
However, in the case of a cleft lip or cleft palate; for example; then yes I do agree with cosmetic surgery to make the child look better.
I hope you see there is a difference in the above cases.
I think most can see that circumcision and a boob job are too very different things.
It is ridiculous to even try to compare both as you have done.

there are a host of medical issues that go along with a cleft palate, it is not a cosmetic procedure.

tupenny · 19-05-2017 02:40PM

Ok yeah that is extremely odd...

I've experienced both and can't say I have a preference either way.
Wouldn't be getting a son done though unless needed medically

Alizrian Crimson · 19-05-2017 02:41PM

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'm not quite sure you understand what circumcision is in men.

While it's tempting to channel Hitchens male circumcision is safe in the overwhelming number of cases. Should anyone take the minute risk with their child, of course not - but if you want a sensible discussion on this you might take the hyperbole down from 11.

As for this being a stone age thing - it takes religion for this sort of nonsense to start.

You seem unaware that the 'procedure' can go catastrophically wrong. Imagine living your life with a mutilated penis because your parents thought it looked better or was more hygienic. In America there was an infamous case of boy being forced to live as a girl after his penis was destroyed. He killed himself. It's barbaric.

Bluestratos, why do think it's ok to cut little boys but not girls?

kunst nugget · 19-05-2017 02:46PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

@kunstnugget
No, I think that would be wrong and illegal.
I think all men should be circumcised.
I do not agree with children having cosmetic surgery such as a boob job.
However, in the case of a cleft lip or cleft palate; for example; then yes I do agree with cosmetic surgery to make the child look better.
I hope you see there is a difference in the above cases.
I think most can see that circumcision and a boob job are too very different things.
It is ridiculous to even try to compare both as you have done.

It actually isn't ridiculous - your wife wanted to get the procedure done because she likes the look of circumcised penises and not because it was necessary - you bringing in that you wanted matching penises and your wife's preference for circumcised penises when it comes to the act of fellatio as good reasons to get the procedure done on your kids is the ridiculous part imo.

lawred2 · 19-05-2017 02:47PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

It actually isn't ridiculous - your wife wanted to get the procedure done because she likes the look of circumcised penises and not because it was necessary - you bringing in that you wanted matching penises and your wife's preference for circumcised penises when it comes to the act of fellatio as good reasons to get the procedure done on your kids is the ridiculous part imo.

I missed that bit..

Seriously warped stuff.

pickarooney · 19-05-2017 02:49PM

BlueStratos wrote: »

@kunstnugget
No, I think that would be wrong and illegal.
I think all men should be circumcised.
I do not agree with children having cosmetic surgery such as a boob job.
However, in the case of a cleft lip or cleft palate; for example; then yes I do agree with cosmetic surgery to make the child look better.
I hope you see there is a difference in the above cases.
I think most can see that circumcision and a boob job are too very different things.
It is ridiculous to even try to compare both as you have done.

A cleft palate is a physical deformity that tends to cause breathing, feeding, hearing problems and in extreme cases death. Having a foreskin or small breasts doesn't cause any of the above.

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with someone so wilfully obtuse as to consider this kind of gibberish to be a reasoned argument. It's an eye opener to read this ****e from Irish adults, I have to say.

"HIV lives in the foreskin" is my favourite one so far.

For those who claim to prefer a circumcised cock, given that an erect penis is fully unsheathed what exactly is the difference in sensation that you experience?

BlueStratos · 19-05-2017 02:50PM

@zedhead
With regards to cosmetic surgery of children..
I think both legally, and culturally; we all know what is and isn't acceptable.
So I won't clarify that a parent choosing a boob job or labiaplasty for a child is wrong (and illegal).
And I don't feel I need to clarify that circumcision is both legal, and culturally acceptable than the above cosmetic surgeries.
I think it looks better and is cleaner, so had it done at 25. My wife concurs with my opinions.
And so we had our son's done too. Our decision, no one else's really.
Of course we could have wanted it done for medical/religious/cultural reasons etc. But neither of us feel the need to justify our decision more than to say, we think it looks better and is cleaner. We really do think this.
It's not just a case of; my wife wanted our boys to look the same as me. She just likes the look, and thinks it's more clean and healthy.
I know some women like yourself don't agree with all that, but that is the way it is.
Her girlfriends really are 50/50 on it. Some of them have been influenced by her, and some think it's nonsense.
Personally I don't think one should try to influence people for/against it, but having a personal view on it is fine.
I hope this clarifies my view (and wife's) on it. I don't wish to change your opinion and totally understand it.

OldNotWIse · 19-05-2017 02:53PM

Where is the outrage over parents allowing someone to punch holes in their baby daughters' ears?

Alizrian Crimson · 19-05-2017 02:54PM

More hygienic...you do realize you can just wash it on the shower?

Assuming Bluestratos is not trolling, his brainwashing shows why the men's rights movements is needed.

Male Genital Mutilation - why is this allowed?

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