Capri pinto problems

dooroy · 10-05-2017 04:15PM

Was there any other work done following the breaking of the belt - or did you just replace the belt ?
As crosshair 1 says that the standard 1.6 does not damage valves and you can see they are all moving as they should then I think you should concentrate on the timing (and possibly fuel supply) - was the distributor moved , was there a new cap fitted etc.
Nowadays a broken belt nearly always means bent valves etc -people tend to assume that valves etc will be bent ; and this tends to send them off on the wrong track .

Mech1 · 10-05-2017 04:25PM

Pity its a auto, I bet it would start on a tow!

Isambard · 10-05-2017 04:27PM

you get both stories but it seems the 1.6 is interference an the 2.0 is not which makes sense as the 2 litre block is taller and therefore the piston is further from the valves.

I've checked the timing loads of times. It's spot on both marks and (as It's a Motorcraft did there isn't a timing mark) the rotor is pointed at no 1 plug lead when at 6 to 8 degrees btdc

Dis has been out but I can't see that matters so long as the rotor is pointed at No1 where it should be.

I can't see the valves aere moving, only the springs...and I don't know if that s the same thing.

Isambard · 10-05-2017 04:29PM

Mech1 wrote: »

Pity its a auto, I bet it would start on a tow!

dead right....I thought that too

worst car I ever bought...first the gearbox failed and now this...I've had about 40 Cortinas and never had a major problem.

dooroy · 10-05-2017 04:48PM

'Dis has been out but I can't see that matters so long as the rotor is pointed at No1 where it should be.'

What kind of drive has the distributor - is it a gear type or one that slots into a groove as it were ?
If its a slotted type it could go back 180 degs out .
The gear type is even more tricky to get right .
Are you sure the the piston is on the compression stroke (both valves closed) when it comes up to TDC and the rotor pointing to no.1
As the car has points as you say the rotor could be pointing at no. 1 but the points may be already open , or not opening for another while. The spark happens just as the points open.
With ignition on , distributor cap off , turn the engine and watch for a small spark from the points just you approach/pass the TDC mark .

Pete67 · 10-05-2017 04:52PM

Are all the HT leads in the right position on the distributor cap, and are they all going to the right plug so the firing order is correct?

Isambard · 10-05-2017 05:02PM

Pete67 wrote: »

Are all the HT leads in the right position on the distributor cap, and are they all going to the right plug so the firing order is correct?

Yes

Isambard · 10-05-2017 05:04PM

dooroy wrote: »

'Dis has been out but I can't see that matters so long as the rotor is pointed at No1 where it should be.'

What kind of drive has the distributor - is it a gear type or one that slots into a groove as it were ?
If its a slotted type it could go back 180 degs out .
The gear type is even more tricky to get right .
Are you sure the the piston is on the compression stroke (both valves closed) when it comes up to TDC and the rotor pointing to no.1
As the car has points as you say the rotor could be pointing at no. 1 but the points may be already open , or not opening for another while. The spark happens just as the points open.
With ignition on , distributor cap off , turn the engine and watch for a small spark from the points just you approach/pass the TDC mark .

It's the gear type...the rotor is pointed at No1 lead, isn't that all that matters?

dooroy · 10-05-2017 05:38PM

'isn't that all that matters?'
With points not really.
You will notice that you can turn the distributor body but the rotor doesn't move.
The points are mounted on the distributor body and are opened by the cams on the distributor shaft.
Try what I said about turning the engine and watching for spark etc in my last post .
You may find that the spark does not occur while the rotor is pointing at No. 1 - it could be much earlier or much later .As the points open there will be a very faint spark from them. When this happens stop and see where rotor is.

Pete67 · 10-05-2017 05:39PM

The angular position of the distributor body (not the rotor) also has to be correct or the spark will not be timed correctly. Did you check that the spark is timed just before tdc?

Isambard · 10-05-2017 05:40PM

Isambard wrote: »

all the springs are compressing when the camshaft is turned and all of them are returning after the cam has passed. There is clearance between the cam and the cam follower but not excessive, in fact if anything I'd judge they are a little tight.

where does that leave me? does the spring uncompressing indicate that the valve is shutting? would the spring stay compressed f the valve was stuck open?

I'll have to get hold of a compression tester , it's awkward to use the finger over the hole method as I'm here on my own most of the time and don't have 6 foot arms to turn the key :-).

can anyone answer this?

dooroy · 10-05-2017 05:50PM

If all valves are moving up and down then they should be OK .
If a valve was stuck then the spring would stay compressed and the gap between valve and camshaft lobe would be noticably bigger.
As I said earlier the problem would seem to be ignition timing.
You may have to remove the distributor again and refit to get the timing right.
Do you know anyone who has a manual for this car that would show you how to refit dizzy in correct position.
As you remove /replace dis you will notice that the rotor turns as the gears disengage/engage.
Will try to see if I can find any info on how to do this - couldn't find anything on a quick search but will try again later

Isambard · 10-05-2017 05:57PM

well that's good news.

I'm going to install the new points and plugs tomorrow and use jump leads from my camper to ensure max power getting through straight from it's alternator, a method that's succeeded before. My thinking is that the spark may be a bit deficient with the starter taking most of the available power (although I have the car battery on charge each night, it would soon dip in power with repeated attempts to start.

jca · 10-05-2017 07:43PM

Isambard wrote: »

can anyone answer this?

Can you cross the solenoid terminals with a spanner with the plugs out?

b318isp · 10-05-2017 09:22PM

Isambard wrote: »

can anyone answer this?

In my experience, a bent valve will not close fully, so you would see a larger gap between the rocker and the cam.

dooroy · 10-05-2017 10:59PM

What could be happening is that there is a spark alright - just not at or near the right time.
If the spark occurs when the rotor is halfway between 2 contacts in the cap then it will not fire - even on a tow.
What you could try is turn the distributor a little at a time in either direction and see will you get a reaction - backfire etc.If you do then it proves you have fuel and spark
http://www.fordcapriforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=46388
Have a look through this - it will give you an idea of how your distributor should look - 2 clips for cap in roughly 11 o clock and 5 o clock positions as you look down from the side of the car.
There is also a mark (like a hacksaw mark) on the edge of the distributor and the rotor should point at this with No. 1 cyl at TDC on compression stroke.

Isambard · 12-05-2017 08:39PM

The position of the cap is immaterial surely. it's the position of the rotor in relation to No1 plug lead that counts. The spark can't occur between terminals unless the cap isn't on properly. Set up on tdc and then advanced 6 to 8 degrees and the whole dis adjusted so that the rotor is pointed at no 1 lead.

The mark you talk of is on the Bosch dis not the Motorcraft one.

In any case the plugs are sparking which makes it academic. As far as I can see the timing is set up correctly and the new plugs seem to be getting fuel, so until I've got a second opinion (on its way soon hopefully) i'd say there is valve damage.

jca · 12-05-2017 09:22PM

It isn't looking great, any compression when you put your finger over a plug hole?

Isambard · 12-05-2017 09:25PM

still on my own and still haven't got 6 foot arms :-)

Lots of people said is the timing out 180 degrees and I didn't know what that meant so I took the timing belt off again and refitted with the camshaft in the opposite position ie 180 degrees. No different

Pete67 · 12-05-2017 10:09PM

I really think this is an ignition timing issue. You seem to be discounting the importance of the position of the distributor body, but this is what controls the ignition timing. It does not matter if the rotor is pointing at the right plug lead when cylinder #1 is at or close to TDC if the points are opening at the wrong time. The spark is generated at the exact instant the points open - and the timing of this relative to the crankshaft position is determined by the position of the distributor body / cap assembly.

Can I suggest you try the following:

Double check that the crankshaft and camshaft timing marks are correctly aligned.
Remove all four plugs, and rotate the engine two full turns by hand to ensure it turns freely.
Connect the no. 1 plug and HT lead, and just lie the plug on the engine somewhere you can see it and so that the metal body is making contact with the engine somewhere - ie so that the plug is earthed.
With the ignition on, turn the engine slowly by hand (ratchet spanner on the crank or camshaft pulley nuts) and verify that the spark plug spark occurs just before the the no 1 cylinder reaches TDC and when both valves are closed.
If not, loosen the clamp bolt holding the distributor body, and then rotate the distributor body a small amount in either direction, and recheck the spark timing.
Repeat until spark is at or just ahead of TDC on no.1 cylinder when it is at the top of the compression stroke (ie both valves are closed.)
When satisfied, tighten the distributor clamp, refit the remaining spark plugs, connect leads in the correct firing order which is 1,3,4,2 and see it it starts.

The above is much easier to do with an ignition timing strobe light, but this should get you close enough for the engine to start, if there is fuel and compression.

Isambard · 13-05-2017 08:53AM

I'm not discounting the position of the dis itself, just the cap...as I said it's the relationship between the rotor and no1 lead that matters and that is correct and I've tried various points either side by slight adjustment. there's not even a hint of it firing leading me to conclude that the valves are not opening /shutting as required. meaning that the fuel is not being drawn in on the induction stroke and compressed on the compression stroke , and thus there is nothing to ignite on the ignition stroke

I even tried setting the engine with the "Moon over the mountain" 180 degrees wrong and taking off the timing belt, resetting the camshaft to the correct position and refitting the belt. People keep saying about the timing being 180 degrees out and that's the only way I can think of to correct this

Pete67 · 13-05-2017 09:14AM

If both timing marks line up then the valve timing is correct. However if the distributor has been out then the ignition timing may well be 180 degrees off, so that the #1 cylinder spark occurs at tdc on the exhaust stroke and not the compression one. If this is the case, the engine cannot fire as there will be no fuel/mix in the cylinder when the spark occurs. Have you checked this?

If it is 180 degrees out, remove the distributor, and turn the engine one complete turn back to tdc #1 (360 degrees on the crankshaft, the camshaft will only turn 180 degrees) and refit the distributor in the same position as before and with the rotor pointed to #1 plug lead. Hope that makes sense and best of luck.

Isambard · 13-05-2017 09:49AM

right I will try that first as it sounds very similar (and easier) to the advice I just got to rotate the crankshaft 360 with the belt off. After that's done, turning another 360 on the crank would line the timing marks back up? Yes I can get on board with that .Thanks.

scannerd · 13-05-2017 10:01AM

Have a look at relative compression testing on youtube, that would give you direction on the issue with taking anything apart

Isambard · 13-05-2017 11:37AM

Isambard wrote: »

right I will try that first as it sounds very similar (and easier) to the advice I just got to rotate the crankshaft 360 with the belt off. After that's done, turning another 360 on the crank would line the timing marks back up? Yes I can get on board with that .Thanks.

tried both of them, no joy. Will have to get a compression tester and/or an assistant!

dooroy · 13-05-2017 04:09PM

Did you change the cap when you replaced the belt ?
I also had a few Cortinas (both cossflow and OHC) many moons ago and I remember that the caps caused some confusion .
There were 2 caps which looked the same and would clip on properly etc - but if you put the 2 caps side by side the positions of the contacts inside was different relative to the clips holding them down.Just a thought.
These engines are pretty straight forward - you could try this procedure and you all you need is a 12v test lamp - lead light etc.
1) turn on ignition
2) turn engine , watching as no. 1 inlet valve opens and closes .
3) put one lead of lamp onto good earth point on engine etc
4) attach other lead to screw on points (Light shouldn't come on)
5) continue to turn engine slowly towards TDC (while watching the light).
6) as you reach TDC the light should come on - the point the light comes on is when the points open and spark occurs.
7) see where rotor is pointing.

If points open well before TDC - timing is too advanced . Just continue to TDC , then turn distributor body in same direction as rotor rotation until light goes off.Stop . Then turn back slowly till light comes on again .
If light doesn't come on till well after TDC - reverse the above process.
I used this for many years when I couldn't afford timing lights , dwell meters etc. and it works

Capri pinto problems

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