Terrorist Assassination Plot in Germany

Billy86 · 10-05-2017 12:50AM #1

Well this is interesting... makes you wonder who may have been the target? We all know the motives.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39859058

German authorities have made another arrest linked to an alleged plot to murder a senior public figure.

The man, a soldier, is accused of conspiring with another army officer who had falsely registered as a Syrian refugee, and a student.

The suspected right-wing extremists wanted to frame refugees for the attack, say prosecutors.

Their alleged targets included former German president Joachim Gauck and Justice Minister Heiko Maas.

The affair has sparked a national debate about right-wing extremism in Germany's armed forces.

...

The three "planned an attack against a high-ranking politician or public figure who was supportive of what the accused saw as the failed immigration and refugee affairs policies", prosecutors said.

Samaris · 10-05-2017 01:36AM

Well, that's...worrying.

Given the motives, I doubt it actually matters who they were going for (well, it would likely matter to the potential victims). Highest political rank accessible whose level of protection doesn't make it too difficult to pull off.

Jack the Stripper · 10-05-2017 01:37AM

Meanwhile the weather is remaining settled.

tomwaterford · 10-05-2017 03:40AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Well this is interesting... makes you wonder who may have been the target? We all know the motives.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39859058

This is insane,

could they not have waited another week for an islamic attack??

10-05-2017 04:18AM

Why did you describe this as a terrorist plot? Terrorism is an attack on innocent civilians for a political aim. It's just an assassination plot because they have a specific target who they believe is complicit in the destruction of German culture.

Peregrinus · 10-05-2017 04:33AM

The "desire to frame to frame refugees for the plot" provides the political aim.

The suggested targets named ("former German president Joachim Gauck and Justice Minister Heiko Maas") are both civilians.

Yup, terrorism, no question. Anyone who says otherwise is an apologist for terrorism.

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-05-2017 04:34AM

511 wrote: »

Why did you describe this as a terrorist plot? Terrorism is an attack on innocent civilians for a political aim. It's just an assassination plot because they have a specific target who they believe is complicit in the destruction of German culture.

Where did you get your definition of terrorism?

Here's the FBI's:

FBI definition of terrorism: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

Nothing about innocent civilians there. But I know there are what might charitably be called competing definitions of the term.

Your Face · 10-05-2017 06:53AM

Shades of 1933.

Beyondgone · 10-05-2017 07:33AM

Nationalist assassination plot, surely?

Which they also bungled, which gives yet another lie to the old "German efficiency" myth.

Peregrinus · 10-05-2017 07:40AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Nationalist assassination plot, surely?

Obviously, yes. The issue is why anyone would think that a nationalist assassination plot was not terrorism. Especially when conducted with the motive of promoting the victimisation of refugees and/or Muslims.

As others have pointed out, there are varying definitions of "terrorism" floating around, but on the definition that 511 offered in post #5, this is quite clearly terrorism. It's terrorism on pretty well any of the commonly-used definitions, frankly.

Samaris · 10-05-2017 08:34AM

What Peregrinus said. This was absolutely a terrorist plot. Just because it wasn't Muslims doing it doesn't mean it wasn't terrorism. It was intended to push a political standpoint by violence and terror, particularly striking at a specific population.

Terrorism doesn't have to be random in its selection of targets.

Beyondgone · 10-05-2017 08:35AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Obviously, yes. The issue is why anyone would think that a nationalist assassination plot was not terrorism. Especially when conducted with the motive of promoting the victimisation of refugees and/or Muslims.

As others have pointed out, there are varying definitions of "terrorism" floating around, but on the definition that 511 offered in post #5, this is quite clearly terrorism. It's terrorism on pretty well any of the commonly-used definitions, frankly.

Not really. Was the assassination of Kennedy "terrorism"? The "terrorism" phrase gets bandied about a little too liberally. Or whenever suits. Makes no odds as the people involved were obviously imbeciles anyway. I suppose "Imbecile Assassination Plot in Germany" doesn't have the same ring to it though.

Collie D · 10-05-2017 08:41AM

The German army has barracks in France?!

Samaris · 10-05-2017 08:50AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Not really. Was the assassination of Kennedy "terrorism"? The "terrorism" phrase gets bandied about a little too liberally. Or whenever suits. Makes no odds as the people involved were obviously imbeciles anyway. I suppose "Imbecile Assassination Plot in Germany" doesn't have the same ring to it though.

Barring the assassination of a high-profile politician, the Kennedy assassination fails to be in any way like this situation in motive and methodology. It wasn't terrorism, it was murder (or assassination). This one, with its clearly terrorist motivations and building on earlier terrorist attacks, is absolutely terrorism - the attempt to coerce a population by fear and violence for concrete political aims.

Kennedy does not meet those criteria. This does.

I agree on "imbeciles" though.

Not relating to you, Beyondgone, or at least not specifically, more at the weird denialism in here already - is this honest-to-god because it's white nationalists rather than Muslims? I mean, is that really why this is being argued over rather than what actually happened and was plotted? -Why?-

Peregrinus · 10-05-2017 08:52AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Not really. Was the assassination of Kennedy "terrorism"? The "terrorism" phrase gets bandied about a little too liberally. Or whenever suits. Makes no odds as the people involved were obviously imbeciles anyway. I suppose "Imbecile Assassination Plot in Germany" doesn't have the same ring to it though.

I'm not saying that every assassination is terrorism, and in particular I'm not saying that the assassination of Kennedy was terrorism. But you yourself identified this as a nationalist assassination plot, and nationalism is a political philosophy and movement; you've got your political motivation right there.

I agree; "terrorism" does get bandied around a bit much. The US, for instance, use to characterise attacks on the US army in Iraq as terrorism; I think that's rather doubtful. The Saudi government considers the expression of atheist opinions (within Saudi Arabia) to be a form of terrorism; I can't agree.

But that doesn't mean that the term has no content or meaning at all. The fact that some things can't be called terrorist doesn't mean that nothing can be called terrorist. I suggest terrorism requires three things.

1. It involves the use of force or violence, or at the threat of force or violence (e.g. bomb scares, even when there is no bomb).

2. I has to be directed at noncombatants. You may consider attacks on soldiers to be justified or unjustified, but they're not terrorism. Attacks on random targets, or on public servants or politicians, can be terrorist.

3. It has to have a motive, wholly or substantially, of promoting fear, anxiety, terror in the populace so as to undermine political support for your opponents or their policies.

I think this plot, assuming it is as alleged, fairly clearly ticks all three boxes. It was violent; it was directed at a noncombatant; the motive was both to terrify Muslims/refugees (by fomenting hatred against them) and to undermine support for refugee/migration policies (by leading the public to think that they were the proximate cause of assassinations).

tomwaterford · 10-05-2017 08:54AM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Not really. Was the assassination of Kennedy "terrorism"? The "terrorism" phrase gets bandied about a little too liberally. Or whenever suits. Makes no odds as the people involved were obviously imbeciles anyway. I suppose "Imbecile Assassination Plot in Germany" doesn't have the same ring to it though.

Was always lead to believe terrorism was the use of violence to further political aims??

Seems pretty open and shut case here of terrorism tbh

Peregrinus · 10-05-2017 08:57AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Was always lead to believe terrorism was the use of violence to further political aims??

If you accept that definition, then you must conclude that all wars are terrorist, including defensive wars and wars of independence.

A key element that terrorism requires is, well, terror. I think the purpose of your violence has to be to terrify, with a view to eroding political support for whatever or whoever you oppose.

tomwaterford · 10-05-2017 09:02AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you accept that definition, then you must conclude that all wars are terrorist, including defensive wars and wars of independence.

I know....but this is what I always assumed terrorism to be anyway
(Though that lad in the dortMonday attack....possible criminal attack-motivated by greed)

..but I find it unfathomable someone would try to claim this wasnt a terrorist plot tbh. ...but the alt right are always right :rolleyes:

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-05-2017 01:13PM

Beyondgone wrote: »

Nationalist assassination plot, surely?

.

You're going to have to explain why that should preclude it being a terrorist attack, the distinction you're making is lost on me.

It is interesting that it's only in situations like this where we end up in a semantic argument. If it was an Isis assassination plot would there be people offering details, nuanced definitions of the word terrorist? Or would we be discussing the actual plot? Terrorism is very easily defined, it only becomes problematic because we want to find a definition that either excludes violence we support, or we want to reserve the word for a particular brand of violence (Muslims being the brand du jour these days obviously).

Richard Hillman · 10-05-2017 01:23PM

The burgeonings of the civil war.

The_Kew_Tour · 10-05-2017 01:43PM

France and Germany will have Civil unrest within next decade or so you would fear. Merkel is not going down well with lot of Germans.

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-05-2017 02:12PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

France and Germany will have Civil unrest within next decade or so you would fear. Merkel is not going down well with lot of Germans.

If only they had some means of ousting her peacefully and consensually. I dunno, elections or something like that. Ah well.

Allah snackbar · 10-05-2017 02:49PM

Good thread about the definition of terrorism , can a mod change the thread title please

The_Kew_Tour · 10-05-2017 02:58PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

If only they had some means of ousting her peacefully and consensually. I dunno, elections or something like that. Ah well.

Ya it's coming up

NinjaKirby · 10-05-2017 03:03PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yup, terrorism, no question. Anyone who says otherwise is an apologist for terrorism.

Love this part.

You can't disagree with people online anymore without being labelled as the worst thing imaginable.

Everything in this world is black or white and any exploration of grey areas will not be tolerated, right?

There are a broad rage of acts that could be regarded as terrorism and this would certainly fall into that category... arguably. I think it would be classed as terrorism but maybe other people disagree and that's OK, really.

The idea that anyone who says otherwise is somehow an apologist for terrorism is, frankly, idiotic.

If you were trying to make yourself look like an utter buffoon here then you've succeeded. Anyone who says otherwise is an apologist for buffoonery. :rolleyes:

NinjaKirby · 10-05-2017 03:15PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You're going to have to explain why that should preclude it being a terrorist attack, the distinction you're making is lost on me.

It is interesting that it's only in situations like this where we end up in a semantic argument. If it was an Isis assassination plot would there be people offering details, nuanced definitions of the word terrorist? Or would we be discussing the actual plot? Terrorism is very easily defined, it only becomes problematic because we want to find a definition that either excludes violence we support, or we want to reserve the word for a particular brand of violence (Muslims being the brand du jour these days obviously).

I'm sure I read somewhere that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter or something like that.

I think people should at least be entitled to argue the differences, even if they are ultimately shown to be wrong.

I would tend to think of a terrorist attack as being an attack perpetrated on the general civilian population for some kind of political goal and with an organisation publicly taking responsibility for that attack.

I wouldn't necessarily classify an incident like Columbine as a terrorist attack and I wouldn't classify an assassination of a politician as a terrorist attack but maybe others would?

Seems like once again the American desire for catchy buzzwords reigns supreme.

Just an note here. The BBC article actually describes this as an "assassination plot" and does not mention terrorism or terrorists. Those BBC terrorism apologists, eh Peregrinus?

It was actually the OP who called it a terrorist plot.

NinjaKirby · 10-05-2017 03:32PM

Samaris wrote: »

Is this honest-to-god because it's white nationalists rather than Muslims? I mean, is that really why this is being argued over rather than what actually happened and was plotted? -Why?-

I don't think so. The original article is from the BBC and they don't mention terrorism at all. I'm not so sure that the BBC has any white nationalist leanings.

It looks like they were planning to assassinate a politician who was supportive of Germany's immigration policies.

I would personally call this a terrorist plot BUT the article posted has itself referred to this as an "assassination plot".

A summary...

BBC Article: "Assassination Plot"
Billy86: "Terrorist Assassination Plot"
551: "Isn't this just an assassination plot?"
Peregrinus: "No. It's terrorism and anyone who says otherwise is an apologist for terrorism"
Me: WTF??

Billy86 · 10-05-2017 04:15PM

Allah snackbar wrote: »

Good thread about the definition of terrorism , can a mod change the thread title please

Why change the thread title when the thread is about a terrorist assassination plot in Germany, as is the OP? It would make more sense to get back on topic.

GLaDOS · 10-05-2017 04:20PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-soldiers-false-flag-arrests-refugees-assassinate-plot-far-right-left-wing-politicians-terror-a7726676.html

A second soldier involved has been arrested

duloxetineteva · 10-05-2017 04:28PM

These lads were mentally ill yes ?

Realt Dearg Sec · 10-05-2017 04:36PM

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I'm sure I read somewhere that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter or something like that.

I think people should at least be entitled to argue the differences, even if they are ultimately shown to be wrong.

I would tend to think of a terrorist attack as being an attack perpetrated on the general civilian population for some kind of political goal and with an organisation publicly taking responsibility for that attack.

I wouldn't necessarily classify an incident like Columbine as a terrorist attack and I wouldn't classify an assassination of a politician as a terrorist attack but maybe others would?

Seems like once again the American desire for catchy buzzwords reigns supreme.

Just an note here. The BBC article actually describes this as an "assassination plot" and does not mention terrorism or terrorists. Those BBC terrorism apologists, eh Peregrinus?

It was actually the OP who called it a terrorist plot.

I wouldn't have a problem with a discussion of the definition of terrorism, except that the definition is, in fact, completely uncontroversial. The only thing that ever changes is our willingness to apply that definition consistently. Your own definition seems to me to be perfectly fine, except for the part about taking responsibility for the attack. I've never seen that included in a definition before (I'll come back to that though).

Regarding the BBC's use or non-use of the term, I'm not exactly why that would matter to this discussion. Either the plot was terrorist or it wasn't. Whether the BBC call it terrorist is really irrelevant to that question. Where it IS relevant, is in a broader discussion of WHY the definition of terrorism is so controversial in the first place. The willingness of mainstream media to use the term "terrorist" is, obviously, very important in terms of how our understanding of these things is shaped. But it doesn't change the definition. The only question is whether the act fits the definition. I would submit that it does.

To return to the question of taking responsibility. One of the phenomena that has emerged lately is radical Islamic "lone wolf" attacks.
These are frequently claimed by ISIS, but most analysts agree that in many cases there are no provable links to ISIS. Now, it could be ISIS inspired,
but it also could be that ISIS like taking responsibility without having had to do anything whatsoever. Anyway the question is, if ISIS did NOT take responsibility, by your definition these acts would not be terrorist. By the FBI's they would.

Terrorist Assassination Plot in Germany

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