Youthreach Resource Vs Teaching

Biorra wrote: »

does anyone know exactly....
1. how many resource people/coordinators have/do not have a diploma/degree/certificate?
2. how many have a secondary level qualification?
3. how many have subsequent qualifications under the NFQ?
there is alot of he says/she says - is there anyway of actually getting this information?
Following the Athlone meeting, i was told that there is a significant number of people in youthreach with no formal qualification - but my question is WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DO??
in the past, i worked in an environment where a number of staff were unqualified.l was also reliably told that these people were asked to undertake a diploma/degree (of their choice) and the old VEC at the time would meet the costs of this.
They opted not to and were since awarded a non-qualified rate as a teacher. - l'm sorry this is not a knocking or a bashing contest because we're all divided enough on this issue but does anyone outside of our sector really understand the issues/pressures we work under. especially for new entrants!

The following qualifications profile of Youthreach staff was given in a presentation on FET Professional Development at the NAYC conference in March:

Teaching/Training Qualification 71%
Subject/Vocational Qualification 74%


These stats are in response to a SOLAS survey of the FET workforce in 2015 prior to the development of the FET Professional Dev. Strategy 2017-2019.

mammabee wrote: »

Looking at circular 27/17 for new entries as a resource person you will get 28,296 euro a year, no degree allowance, which equals to app. 544.15 per week. On the same circular the caretakers are starting on 527.69 as a new entry. That my friends is the value of the work we do as resource workers. And I bet every new recruit has qualifications! Take that to the unions and see what they say! It is sickening and insulting. The union who is meant to represent their members do nothing only take our very hard earned money and swiftly go on to ignore us! This should be a top priority for them. We are too quiet!!

Oh an for the record I am not saying the caretakers deserve less pay, I am just showing what all your years in college/university is worth to the etb's and the union!

The TUI are protecting the small minority of unqualified Youthreach Resource Persons at the expense of the rest. The staffing structure of Youthreach is a complete mess. Co-ordinators for small centres getting the same remuneration as centres up to 6 times the size. Resource persons 'supposed' to be part of centre management but working 42 days more and getting paid less than teachers. Teachers being employed on qualified and unqualified contracts. Some ETBs have even invented the position of Assistant Co-ordinator which is just a Resource Person post in disguise, same contract, same same salary. I'd imagine the TUI and the DES don't really want anything to do with it. Hopefully the upcoming review will highlight these issues and some major reform will take place.

mammabee wrote: »

Well we have been told that we should not turn the review into a platform about our terms and conditions-by our coordinator! , so who knows really. We can only live in hope.

Your coordinator is talking nonsense! It's a perfectly legitimate platform to express concerns about staffing terms and conditions. They directly affect the operation of the centre, student outcomes and the learning environment.

ustazjoseph wrote: »

don't know if you were at congress in cork or read any of the motions passed? ?the message that " people who work in youthreach teach and should be treated as teachers " was made to the minister by the president. Motions related to this were passed. ETBs have been instructed to to stop inventing roles and positions . its been a mess but it is being addressed because enough people went to meetings and made enough noise. keep at it. these changes come slowly and need a lot of constant work.

Yes, I drafted the Youthreach motions for my branch that were brought to congress and passed. All our issues are well covered in the motions and of course this is very promising. The issues were also very well articulated in the presidents speech to the minister. However, talk is cheap and now is the time for action. Nothing to stop the TUI issuing a directive instructing resource persons/coordinators not to engage in teaching duties until their teaching is recongnised as such. I don't necessarily agree that changes have to be this slow. The incremental credit scheme for resource persons and coordinators which was promised in the May 2016 TUI/DES agreement still hasn't materialised over a year later.

CraftySue wrote: »

I think at this stage we really need to see a strong signal from the union that some progress is been made- rather than perpetual false hope.

Well said!!

CraftySue wrote: »

I thought anyone with teaching status in Youthreach had the same holidays as mainstream teachers - ie June/July/August and midterms etc. Resource persons have a rougher deal - 35 days plus whatever the etb allow for midterms, which varies from regio to region.

At our youthreach resource are only given 35 days period. We have to come in a couple of days over midterms, xmas and easter and sit in an empty centre, sometimes alone because our coordinator says the centre has to be offically open! I kid you not. Any time taken off during these breaks are taken as annual leave. Yes it depends on the centre, actually it depends on the coordinator here. Not simple!

mrchuffy wrote: »

... the YR review is being undertaken, after being put out to tender, by independent consultants. Their findings will then to be assessed, sanctioned and supported by a 24 person panel. There are no teachers or resource on this panel. There are no union members on this panel. Comprises of administrators, ctc and iacto people and 4 coordinators. I'd be of the view we do not cooperate with the review unless there is a redress of the make up of this panel.

I'd be interested to see what angle they.re going to take - I wonder if it is secretly a value for money exercise?? - from what I can see, no one knows where we should sit - secondary or further ed. - there is now the additional issue of trying to marry the ETB youthreach with the FAS/SOLAS CTCs!

Unfortunately, I have a problem, I am a dreamer - a lucky dreamer because although I have had a lot of issues in my life, I was not born into an environment that many of these young people that we work with have had to endure and continue to endure.

I also have a niggling problem - my problem is when you have a kid that's for arguments sake, 15. he/she has come through primary (the odd day that they were there- they may have had additional resources that were transferred entering secondary), they can barely read and write and suddenly bang, there in further ed. but all they want to know is, can they do the junior cert. because that's what their friends in the school are doing and they want to be the same.

So you work with this kid (sometimes with great difficulty - especially with their anger and baggage) - you bargain/reason/bribe/praise, your on the receiving end when it goes pear shaped and there are others wanting them out - and what are you left it? Somewhere along the journey, something clicks.

With support and structures it begins to slot together like different coloured pieces of lego. You have helped to craft this person. You have helped them to taste success and supported them in learning the lessons when it goes wrong....

My question is simple,
1. HOW WILL THIS BE MEASURED - will it even be noted? youthreach is looked upon in some circles as "that place down there..."
2. HOW MUCH OF AN INPUT WILL BE ALLOWED by the powers that be with egos to be massaged?
3. WHAT IS THE HIDDEN AGENDA?
4. DOES ANYONE APART FROM RESOURCE PEOPLE AND COORDINATORS REALLY KNOW WHATS GOING ON - because many of us are reaching the stage of complete burn out through frustration and being under valued for the roles we do.

ok - rant over now,thank you.

As a Youthreach Resource Person that has been in Youthreach since the stone age, I would like to make the following points.

Youthreach was originally set up as more of a Training Centre than an Education Centre. They did not want qualified teachers working in Youthreach. They wanted qualified carpenters teaching woodwork, qualified IT people teaching IT, qualified chefs teaching catering, etc.
However, qualified teachers applied for these positions and were accepted by ETBs (VECs at the time) that either did not know about Youthreach or did not care. Some of these qualified teachers could not get more than 5 to 10 hours teaching and decided to apply for full time resource persons positions instead.
As more and more qualified teachers were hired, to teach in an organisation that was set up to be different from school, they pushed the unions to fight for equal status with teachers in mainstream and the Department gave in.
We now have a situation where qualified teachers applied for and accepted a position that was meant to be unqualified, they are now seeing their colleagues getting long holidays and they are trying to change the conditions of the job. Its a bit like a Surgeon applying to be a cleaner and then asking that all cleaners get the same conditions as surgeons.
I for one do not support this cause and would strongly fight against it, because if the Coordinators and Resource Persons get 3 months summer holidays, the students will lose out.

Youthreach is able to bring in Tutors during the mid-terms and the summer to run short courses or help supervise on trips out. If your Coordinator is telling you there are not enough hours to do this then they have not managed their allocation of hours properly. This happens when the Coordinator does not teach despite 15 hours being taken from the budget for them every week for 42 weeks. They have not given enough teaching to the Resource Person despite 20 hours being taken from the budget every week for 42 weeks or they have put on too many groups, e.g. a 25 trainee centre having 3 groups of 6 and 1 group of 7 instead of having 2 groups of 8 and 1 group of 9.

I would also like to ask, why are ETBs taking 21 teaching hours for Resource and 16 for Coordinators under Haddington Road when we are suppose to be working our extra 2 hours free of charge?

Its a bit like a Surgeon applying to be a cleaner and then asking that all cleaners get the same conditions as surgeon[/QUOTE]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this, I feel it's more like a Surgeon applying for a surgeon position and then been told they are now a cleaner. Resource people applied for teaching positions as qualified teachers and then were told there were administrators.
In addition it's highlighted in many reports many students attending youthreach have literacy, numeracy and special educational needs, they deserve a quality education just as much as there counterparts in mainstream education, and deserve the surgeon (teacher) rather than the cleaner.

CraftySue wrote: »

Originally there was two slants to youthreach. fas ran a youthreach with a more training focus, and VEC a more educational / exam focus. I know I applied for a job as a resource position with the VEC, and the advertisement looked for teaching experience and teaching qualifications in a teaching website. I was under the impression that it was like resource teaching, and we were told we had the same conditions under memo V7 as teachers, and the interview was very much based on teaching and classroom management. Other staff had went for a teaching interview for a specific job, and did not get that job but we're offered a resource position under the impression it was teaching. The VEC in my area only hired teachers as resource people, and we always were under the impression that the teaching was recognised as teaching. The unions and VEC always said they considered it teaching, it wasn't until people went to move jobs did people become more aware that the department did not recognise the teaching, and felt mislead by unions and VEC

Unfortunately, that is the fault of your VEC and not the Department or the Youthreach you work for. Youthreach was originally set up to have qualified trades people training the students that attended Youthreach, working along similar lines as Adult Ed. It was felt at the time that students going to Youthreach were not suited to the school system and not quite ready for work. The youthreach week was placed at 35 hours per week as that was the average working week and well above the school week. The year was 209 days long, 42 days more than a school. The guidelines state that qualifications would not be stipulated so as to allow each VEC hire steff that were flexible and experienced in working with disadvantaged students with behavioral issues.

It was never meant to be for qualified teachers, unless the qualified teacher was willing to be flexible and work extra hours, evenings, weekends, mid-terms and even during the summer. As we have discovered, the majority of qualified teachers are not willing to be flexible and really only care about their own working conditions and not those of the students.

And before you have a go at the so called unqualified tutors in youthreach, I have to state that many of them are over qualified for the job they are doing. I myself am a qualified IT Person that could earn a lot more money than I am earning in youthreach, but I love working with the young people in youthreach and I feel they deserve to have hard working, flexible and understanding adults working with them and not people that are more interested in long summer holidays.

I do however understand your situation and I do have empathy for you, but you and your union should be taking this matter up with the ETBs. You were misinformed as to the requirements of the job and therefor you should be transferred to a school under the conditions you are looking for.

Take a look at all the ETBs websites and see where Youthreach has been placed on their site. That will show you that the so called qualified people working in the ETBs don't know or care about Youthreach.

Looney1970 wrote: »

Using the word untrained is more insulting to a tutor than the word unqualified. While they may be untrained teachers and unqualified teachers, they are not untrained or unqualified. The majority if not all of them are vastly qualified people that have worked in Jobs they are training the young people for. They have worked 40 to 50 hour weeks and they have worked 48 weeks of the year.

I would never dream of putting a teacher down or demeaning their job or their qualification, but I and many of the tutors that I have worked with have trained just as long and paid just as much for their qualification, some of them have paid a lot more.

Tutors in Youthreach are not getting teacher status. They get paid less per hour and they do not get paid during Christmas, Mid Terms, Easter and Summer. What happened is that qualified teachers were hired in Jobs that did not require teaching qualifications and they were given parity with the teachers in schools which meant Youthreach is left with only 2 or 3 staff for 8 weeks of the Youthreach year. Qualified teachers also applied for a Resource Person or Coordinator position which does not require a teaching qualification (it requires a level 8 qualification) and they now see their colleagues with the same qualifications as them working shorter weeks and shorter years for the same pay or maybe more and they are not happy. The Resource Persons contract states quite clearly what the hours, holidays, duties, requirements and pay is. So contrary to what someone else said earlier, it is like a surgeon accepting a cleaner or nurses job and then asking for the same conditions as a surgeon.

Im not suggesting for a second that the majority of tutors aren't well educated as I know that most of them are but theyre still technically untrained to teach as they haven't completed the year or two year teacher training. Thats not to say they cant teach, many of them are excellent at their jobs and likewise theres many trained teachers that aren't particularly good but with that said, theres allot to be said for completing a teacher training course, the courses are intense and give a deeper insight and knowledge into teaching, methodologies, curriculum and an understanding of issues which effect students that you don't get through experience alone.

I also wouldnt compare teachers and resource persons to surgeons and cleaners, anyone whose worked in Youthreach knows how challenging it is, Youthreach staff deserve a medal for the work they do, I know qualified teachers desperate looking for work who have walked out of Youthreach jobs, some wont even apply for them as the setting can be so difficult.

Is there any update on the role of Youthreach Resource Persons since 2018? I am returning to teaching after a break and one of these jobs has come up locally. Is it a big mistake to take a job like this? I like the idea of it but I feel it would get to me if my qualifications weren't recognised. What are the positives to these roles for qualified teachers?