New Build, 7 months in with a Danfoss heatpump

corcadorcha · 16-04-2017 04:56PM

Hi,
I am about to get prices for air to water system for 240ish sqm house. House should be A2 Ber after. With underfloor all over. Someone suggested Danfoss but could anyone be able to PM suggestions/ comparisons/ pricing etc. Or other recommendations. I don't have clue where to start.
Thanks

matrat · 27-04-2017 03:48PM

Hi all,
Quick update;
As off Saturday 22nd April;
Recording values for 329 days;
Average Daily cost for all heat and domestic hot water, no electric shower etc. is €2.30.
Average Weekly cost for all heat and domestic hot water is €16.08.
Total cost €755.77.
That is a 3000 sqft house with regular rate esb. I dont adjust heat at all, is a constant 24/7 heat. Living areas are 23c, with Bedrooms at 21c.
I have also started to record actual esb usage at the meter weekly and i have a gut feeling that the HP is actually drawing less power than i am accounting for. I am assuming this based on total units used less units heat pump has stated it uses, this leaves me the usage for house. This final figure is about 15% lower than the last house i lived. With the gain in house size, MHRV, larger appliances etc, i would not expect to see such a decrease. As time goes on i will no doubt review this and start to record the house power usage outside of HP to validate/test my theory. But as it is looking like the HP is using less than the manufacturer stated, then is not a huge concern!

As always, feel free to ask any questions!!

Ray Donovan · 27-04-2017 09:49PM

Do you leave your HP running all the time?

Water John · 27-04-2017 10:36PM

Your temps are quite high. Normal would be 21 in the living with other areas at 18, bedrooms possibly less. That might save 15% in your space heating.
The temp is your choice. Just to compare what another family might achieve in the same type house. A 100/150 euro might be shaved off it.
Lets say 650 euro.
Then invest in night rate. Bringing it back further.
You could then also lower that more if you had storage and bias your use to night rate.

All these are choices for people building.

As it is, you are doing well with that bill for the house size and heat setting.

matrat · 30-04-2017 03:30PM

Water John wrote: »

Your temps are quite high. Normal would be 21 in the living with other areas at 18, bedrooms possibly less. That might save 15% in your space heating.
The temp is your choice. Just to compare what another family might achieve in the same type house. A 100/150 euro might be shaved off it.
Lets say 650 euro.
Then invest in night rate. Bringing it back further.
You could then also lower that more if you had storage and bias your use to night rate.

All these are choices for people building.

As it is, you are doing well with that bill for the house size and heat setting.

Yeah all very good points. Like you say is all personal preference. Some of those points take more input from the user and some will result in less consistent heat and hot water. Our set up at present works for our lifestyle and is comforting to know that we can fine tune it and see some savings in the future. I feel also that it can be hard at times to show the difference in cost of running a hp against other forms in new builds due to the low heat demand. My house is one of the more extreme examples but i think it shows clearly the savings that can be had with hps.

Ray Donovan · 04-05-2017 07:13PM

I turned on my HP on Feb 22nd and I just got my first ESB bill last week for 65 days. €210.

Considering this encompassed the drying out phase of the house I'm quite pleased.

Work was obviously being carried out in the house during this period but we only moved in a few weeks ago.

The next bill (April to June) will be a good indicator of where we lie.

KCross · 04-05-2017 07:23PM

Ray Donovan wrote: »

I turned on my HP on Feb 22nd and I just got my first ESB bill last week for 65 days. €210.

Considering this encompassed the drying out phase of the house I'm quite pleased.

Work was obviously being carried out in the house during this period but we only moved in a few weeks ago.

The next bill (April to June) will be a good indicator of where we lie.

Is it an estimated bill?

Ray Donovan · 04-05-2017 07:27PM

KCross wrote: »

Is it an estimated bill?

No, it was read.

Startingout · 19-05-2017 10:18AM

I am starting out in the house building journey. Have planning permission but don't know where to start in terms of insulation, heat systems, cavity sizes etc. Do you know any company that would look at a set of plans and make recommendations to make the house as energy efficient as possible without going over the top with money?

Water John · 19-05-2017 12:19PM

Need an engineer for that. Any company will be selling product.
You discuss with the engineer, what BER Rating you'd be hoping to achieve. It's based on that conversation and the min regs that he will outline insulation, sealing, Renewable heat sources, ventilation etc.

Startingout · 19-05-2017 12:53PM

Thanks John. What type of engineer should I look for? Sorry for the stupid question but I am totally new to this.

zulutango · 19-05-2017 03:11PM

Most engineers won't have a clue, to be honest. I'm an engineer (more in the area of design of services for commercial buildings, but I am interested in dwellings to some extent) and my advice is to study this forum and just try and get your head around the issues. Feel free to ask questions. I'll answer if I can.

matrat · 22-05-2017 08:48PM

This is a very good question and highlights one of the major issues with the construction industry in Ireland.

I dont know who the best person to ask for a unique build is. I think the safest thing is to do alot of self study on methods and results and have some information and start asking people from there. First point i would assume be your architect and possibly select your architect based upon the level of input they can provide. In my opinion, if your architect cannot give you some good advise or information, or get someone involved in the project who can, eg, building services engineer, then you either take full responsibility for the energy design, or get a new architect. I knew going into my project for example that my architect was nothing more than a name on paper for the council and mortgage. And he was paid as such, not paid as if he was an architect coming to site once a week to check on things.

Also ask everyone for opinions/experience. When you have some level of knowledge from your own study, you will be amazed at the people who you expect will have some knowledge whom have none and you will get some great tips and advice from the most random of places. And a nice pinch of common sense will never go to waste. For example, if you are installing external insulation, dont employ the local contractor who may never have worked with it before. Employ the professionals to do the professional work. I have stated many times in this thread that i ended up using very few tradesmen due to a huge concern that they where alot less qualified to do the job than i was. My heating installer for example could answer all my questions and gave me some great advice and input. On the other hand, i couldnt get close to finding anyone to install and commission MHRV. Building regs are free documents to download yet not one of the guys i contacted could tell me advised flow rates from the regs!

Another update on my system,
Days in use: 357
Total Hours Heat Pump: 3548
Average Daily cost: €2.24
Average Weekly cost: €15.65
Total Heating cost: €573.24
Total DHW cost: €224.82
Total HP cost: €798.06

As listed before this is all Heat supply. House has no other heat source.
This is all DHW. House has no electric shower or immersion.
We have no solar panels, not other heat source of any kind.
I do not adjust heat or HP at anytime. This is 24/7 controlled by HP, no temperature set backs, house is constant 24c downstairs and 23c upstairs.

As always any questions please ask but overall i am delighted with the system and the cost. Never have had a minutes bother with the system in any way. Now that i have a years DATA, next step is to compare the heat output for other heat sources and compare costs!!

Water John · 22-05-2017 10:35PM

Thanks for the figures Marat. I think I discussed them before with you.
You are right, finding professionals, with the knowledge, in the field is difficult.

But that seems to apply to most professional areas. In business, I have found you nearly have to build up your knowledge base so, you have nearly as much as every professional you deal with. That means a good bit of homework in a number of fields. Challenging professionals will not make any of them good friends with you but they will respect and not attempt to bull***t you.

Startingout · 25-05-2017 06:40PM

Thanks all

Shaunoc · 15-03-2018 12:29AM

How has the cold winter affected your HP performance and reflected on bills? I ask as a a2w HP owner awaiting next bill cautiously

matrat · 15-03-2018 12:47AM

Shaunoc wrote: »

How has the cold winter affected your HP performance and reflected on bills? I ask as a a2w HP owner awaiting next bill cautiously

Hi Shaunoc,

Fortunately we missed the majority of the snow so have only had to deal with some cold days. We have had no issues with hp though. The borehole geo is pretty much unaffected by the majority of weather conditions so have not seen any unexpected increases in cost. The most expensive week was still under 37€ for all the heat and all the hot water. Be coming up on 2 years in May and weekly average is around 16€ which I am delighted with.

Shaun

Shaunoc · 15-03-2018 10:13AM

Thanks Shaun

We had plenty of snow and colder nights in the last 2 months. Much cooler compared to last winter, so i had a small worry.
I finally went through utility billing this morning - since we moved in (Sept 2016) and included current actual bill reading (March 12th):
My monthly average looks to be 108 euro per month for all electricity usage.
That is based on 18 months billing through 2 winters from Sept 2016.
Danfoss DHP-AQ 13kW - 346 sqm house
MJ mix of DG and TG (kitchekn and living room) windows

We do use a small wood stove a few evenings of the week from Nov onwards.
There is always someone in house with a lights/laptops/tv/kettle/washer/dryer on the go. I should invest in a one cup kettle!
If I could go back, I would have rearranged the budget for Geo borehole, but overall I can have no complaints with bills and ease of use of A2W.

Shaun

Water John · 15-03-2018 11:01AM

Those are great figures. It's interesting to see, is the borehole W2W worth the extra cost? Probably not in terms of ROI but maybe their is a bit more, peace of mind. Personal choice it seems.

FiOT · 15-03-2018 11:19AM

Shaunoc wrote: »

How has the cold winter affected your HP performance and reflected on bills? I ask as a a2w HP owner awaiting next bill cautiously

Our Bill from the end of November to the end of January was 180e for heat, hot water and electricity but they were fairly mild months. Also waiting and wondering what our bill will be this month after the snow, it seemed like our outdoor unit never stopped for the whole time the snow was on the ground. We have an A2 rated house with air tightness result of 0.9 so it holds the heat very well - we'll know in a few days what the damage is!

gooner99 · 15-03-2018 11:48AM

matrat wrote: »

Hi Shaunoc,

Fortunately we missed the majority of the snow so have only had to deal with some cold days. We have had no issues with hp though. The borehole geo is pretty much unaffected by the majority of weather conditions so have not seen any unexpected increases in cost. The most expensive week was still under 37€ for all the heat and all the hot water. Be coming up on 2 years in May and weekly average is around 16€ which I am delighted with.

Shaun

Hi Shaun. Can you give details of your Geo setup ?

matrat · 16-03-2018 08:22PM

Shaunoc wrote: »

Thanks Shaun

We had plenty of snow and colder nights in the last 2 months. Much cooler compared to last winter, so i had a small worry.
I finally went through utility billing this morning - since we moved in (Sept 2016) and included current actual bill reading (March 12th):
My monthly average looks to be 108 euro per month for all electricity usage.
That is based on 18 months billing through 2 winters from Sept 2016.
Danfoss DHP-AQ 13kW - 346 sqm house
MJ mix of DG and TG (kitchekn and living room) windows

We do use a small wood stove a few evenings of the week from Nov onwards.
There is always someone in house with a lights/laptops/tv/kettle/washer/dryer on the go. I should invest in a one cup kettle!
If I could go back, I would have rearranged the budget for Geo borehole, but overall I can have no complaints with bills and ease of use of A2W.

Shaun

Hi Shaun,

Cant complain with those sort of bills for a house that size, seems a great setup you have!

How do you find using the stove with the heating system? We left an air intake and chimney for a wood burning stove but we have thought since that due to the heat already in the house it may be a bit uncomfortable. Still have done nothing with the space though so still could be on the cards. I have a temp recorder on kitchen fridge and lowest it has ever gotten to is 22.1c and highest is 26.0c. Wife is a heat maniac so is an expense for a quiet life. I think if we kept the living areas at a more normal temp then would def be a nice feature.

I would have to agree with Water John that at those sort of costs, it is hard to see any ROI on the geo with borehole over your a2w. The only unknown factor is performance or reliability issues over comparable lifespan but we both are going into the unknown there. Fingers crossed for both of us that we get plenty of years at these costs!!

matrat · 16-03-2018 08:33PM

gooner99 wrote: »

Hi Shaun. Can you give details of your Geo setup ?

Hi Gooner99,

What sort of details are you looking for?
My machine is a Danfoss DHP-H Opti 8 SP, standard borehole, think about 120m, underfloor all over, stats in bedrooms only, machine has heat curve set and is never touched, no set backs etc. Very happy with the setup overall, is massive change over traditional poorly insulated irish house with radiators, solid fuel stove etc. Would def struggle to ever go back to that!

Shaunoc · 16-03-2018 09:33PM

matrat wrote: »

Hi Shaun,

Cant complain with those sort of bills for a house that size, seems a great setup you have!

How do you find using the stove with the heating system? We left an air intake and chimney for a wood burning stove but we have thought since that due to the heat already in the house it may be a bit uncomfortable. Still have done nothing with the space though so still could be on the cards. I have a temp recorder on kitchen fridge and lowest it has ever gotten to is 22.1c and highest is 26.0c. Wife is a heat maniac so is an expense for a quiet life. I think if we kept the living areas at a more normal temp then would def be a nice feature.

I would have to agree with Water John that at those sort of costs, it is hard to see any ROI on the geo with borehole over your a2w. The only unknown factor is performance or reliability issues over comparable lifespan but we both are going into the unknown there. Fingers crossed for both of us that we get plenty of years at these costs!!

Have a 5kw wood stove - small enough but its got a big heart! (excuse the pun).
I wouldn't be without it now, easy to look after - have an old wet/dry vaccum from the build that use to keep the stove clean - hassle free.
It is in a large open plan kitchen living room so it never gets too over bearing and doesn't need alot of wood to keep it going for the evening. Creates a nice atmosphere and focal point.
We keep living space at 21 degrees and bedrooms at 18, so compared to your tropic conditions the stove is no harm.
It also gives me the excuse to cut/chop/stack look at wood, a good spring pasttime/exercise, which just started today!

The Geo longevity and steadiness (harsh prolonged winter) over the A2W is what I admire but not enough at purchase time not to have too many regrets just now. Fingers crossed indeed

Water John · 16-03-2018 10:23PM

Just realised that I have a disused borehole just outside the house. That should help make my decision should I go towards a HP.

Stiof · 19-03-2018 06:02PM

If I could go back, I would have rearranged the budget for Geo borehole, but overall I can have no complaints with bills and ease of use of A2W.

Shaun[/QUOTE]

Hi Shaun, just at the stage of choosing between A2W and Geo borehole now, could you PM me on reason you'd go for Geo borehole over A2W?
Thanks

Shaunoc · 19-03-2018 07:55PM

Hi Stiof

I believe you will find many references/conversations in threads on boards about benefits of each over one another.
To follow - incredibly simplified summary from my thoughts - it is a while since i picked and I am a layman, not a salesman

I liked the simple plug and play of A2W. It was installed and commissioned within a day.
A2W is less efficient under certain degrees than Geo and better at higher ones. That was my concern due to recent prolonged cold snap. I wouldn't like a month or 2 of that every winter as the compressor may have a poo sooner than it should. Geo is not affected like that and is supposed to be a very steady operator in adverse weather = doesn't have to work harder = less maintenance = last longer.

There is a bigger capital cost in Geo - but not significantly more, I understand due to groundworks costs. Depends on the bore hold depth or if 2 needed. Perhaps there is ground type relevance. Better to ask an expert.
I don't like the idea of horizontal grid of pipework that would limit planting options in lawn for Geo if not going borehole approach.
I liked knowing what the A2W cost would be from the outset instead of potential borehole needing to be 200 metres or 300 metres or 2 required. I didn't price that. Perhaps others here may have more info for you.
Perhaps naivety on my part, but if something went wrong with Geo, I assumed it may be harder to fix - I may be 100% wrong there.

In short if I had a bigger kitty/or rearranged my existing kitty I would like to have Geo with borehole as I like the idea of getting heat from the ground. Too late now so no regrets hopefully for next 15 years (i hope)

tdiman · 26-03-2018 11:25AM

Can I ask a question here. Our house was built in 2006, standard oil central heating, no UF, all rads. How easy is it to fit these types of systems to the house now? Insulation levels are likely lower than today's specs and the house is around 3000 sqft. But its always cold. Thxs.

Shaunoc · 26-03-2018 02:58PM

tdiman wrote: »

Can I ask a question here. Our house was built in 2006, standard oil central heating, no UF, all rads. How easy is it to fit these types of systems to the house now? Insulation levels are likely lower than today's specs and the house is around 3000 sqft. But its always cold. Thxs.

From my understanding, you want to have a certain level of airtightness and insulation before considering a heat pump, otherwise it would have to work too hard, costing you money and the making heatpump life expectancy shorter
Probably other means for you to target your heat loss and air tightness before changing heat source. Might be best to get a professional to do a heat loss survey

KCross · 26-03-2018 03:21PM

tdiman wrote: »

Can I ask a question here. Our house was built in 2006, standard oil central heating, no UF, all rads. How easy is it to fit these types of systems to the house now? Insulation levels are likely lower than today's specs and the house is around 3000 sqft. But its always cold. Thxs.

Thats your answer right there.

If its cold now with oil it will be cold with a heat pump. The heat pump isnt magic fairy dust!

You can retrofit a heat pump but you'd need to fix the insulation, windows/doors and airtightness first. You might find that once you've done that that the oil will do as is.

Its generally not a good idea to use a heat pump with standard steel rads unless they were oversized to begin with. You'd need an assessment carried out to determine if they were suitable or not. If they are not you'd have to replace them with aluminium rads in lieu of putting in UFH.

New Build, 7 months in with a Danfoss heatpump

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