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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    No member of my family would out a parachute on their back and make their way to the cliffs of Moher, do people do these things with the prior approval of the OPW or whoever looks after the Cliffs of Moher, should they not pay for their own helicopter and ambulance to stand by in case the parachute opens.

    I am a taxpayer and I am entitled to query how my taxes are being spent, the cost of the SAR is colossal, I and many other people would have had no idea prior to this accident how colossal.We wouldn't have had any idea either that two expensive helicopters and eight people would be sent out in the early morning to pick up someone with an injury to their finger.

    We know now and we will be asking a lot of questions about this, unlike you we think in this particular incident should never have happened because the SAR shouldn't have been sent out.



    I see, so had they crashed responding to a series injury that would be all right then

    SAR response services cannot and must not play God. They simply are tasked to react and long may it continue
    with the prior approval of the OPW or whoever looks after the Cliffs of Moher, should they not pay for their own helicopter and ambulance to stand by in case the parachute opens.

    Its a mark of an open and free society , that we "let" people undertake activities that are life threatening and then lend then aid if that activity actually does end up being life threatening .

    again long may it continue


    Rescue 116 could not be saved by cotton-wooling the rescue services


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 19 Wintergirl


    I think I will be banging my head off a lot of brick walls trying to get answers as to why two helicopters, note not too ambulances, too massive helicopters were sent to the Atlantic Ocean in the early morning to pick up someone with what appears to be the severed tip of a finger.I don't know though has the details of the injury been confirmed, will that come out in the final AAIU report.Hopefully there will be a recommendation that a triage system is used in future.

    Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant, the money is all coming out of the one source so if we are spending millions on the SAR service then money is cut somewhere else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Wintergirl wrote: »
    I think I will be banging my head off a lot of brick walls trying to get answers as to why two helicopters, note not too ambulances, too massive helicopters were sent to the Atlantic Ocean in the early morning to pick up someone with what appears to be the severed tip of a finger.I don't know though has the details of the injury been confirmed, will that come out in the final AAIU report.Hopefully there will be a recommendation that a triage system is used in future.

    Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant, the money is all coming out of the one source so if we are spending millions on the SAR service then money is cut somewhere else.

    I have been a chairman of a RNLI lifeboat station. when a emergency call is received over a long distance at sea, it may or may not the possible to " triage " anything. Firstly all the people on the boat are not medial professionals and no-one professionally can " see " the injury. Equally long range communications at sea can be challenging and difficult to communicate detailed information

    Yes rescue services perform " trivial " callouts all the time. but SAR services cannot play God. This fact seems to escape you

    I was in the south Atlantic some year ago , when I spoke to a son, whose father had died at sea from head injuries. He was deeply upset that , based on his father initial reaction and the fact that he seemed " OK", they didi not react sooner.

    This is what happens if you play God.


    as for this comment
    Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant.

    NO accident/emergency victim have ever been denied surgery in this country due to funds . What you are talking about is " elective " surgery

    You really simply havent thought this through correctly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0422/869451-116/

    It must be a logistical nightmare out there, on top of the difficult conditions. Be safe y'all!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,468 ✭✭✭Gadgetman496


    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    It seems to suggest that the decision to evacuate was made by MRSC Malin, before discussing with with medic at Cork University Hospital. In fact, the doctor asks MRSC Malin 'is he going to be medevaced'. Perhaps the IRCG needs to review their procedures regarding tasking.

    Professor Plum's observation that IRCG might look at procedures could also look at the time lag between two aircraft heading out. It is clear from the timelines in the report that neither aspect of R116's Top Cover mission could be fulfilled on the night as R118 and R116 were so far apart. For a mission requiring two aircraft, they would need to have been much closer together for the Top Cover element to be truly useful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    (2. History of the Mission - unable to copy and paste). It seems to suggest that the decision to evacuate was made by MRSC Malin, before discussing with with medic at Cork University Hospital. In fact, the doctor asks MRSC Malin 'is he going to be medevaced'. Perhaps the IRCG needs to review their procedures regarding tasking.

    All decisions on Helicopter and Lifeboat assets are initially decided on by MRCC Malin or Valentia , The decision to launch is not taken primarily on an assessment of the medical situation , but more on the decision that the MMRC has been asked to help

    A similar situation occurs with Lifeboat launches, irrespective of what the person calling for help asks for , the MMRC may independently decide to launch. so for example , you cant say over the radio , NO thanks on balance I dont need a lifeboat/helu, Malin or Valentia can independently decide that they will still launch

    Yes, the result can be trivial launches (I wont diverge service records here, but some turn out to be laughably trivial ), but the principle behind SAR is " better safe then sorry ".

    By an large the operating costs are incurred whether the crews are drinking tea at home or flying on a trivial SAR mission , so its not like a huge saying would be realised


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,072 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    As I understand it, calls are triaged through CUH,

    it would be incorrect to say that there is any sort of what would be regarded as medical triage. When a call comes to an MMRC and medical help is required , then that call is relayed to a panel of response experts . Those experts may " influence " the decision to launch , but they have no authority to control that decision


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned

    That is always the case, the final decision to launch , is up to the local SAR command structure. But in the case if rescue 118 and 116 , there were no circumstances that would have resulted in a local decision not to launch.

    The basic rule is , if MMRC says go, you go. ( for declared assets only )


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned

    Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,030 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The idea that the injury wasn't serious enough is ridiculous. What's next ? Mayday Mayday we are sinking
    How fast ? Can you get closer before calling us ?
    Are you sure that you are sinking ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business

    I fail to see what the former SAR support from the RAF has got to do with anything in 2017. Surely the protocols and procedures underpinning Top Cover involving a pair of S-92s have been written down somewhere and would involving tasking them as a pair, not as two separate entities far apart in time?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Discodog wrote: »
    The idea that the injury wasn't serious enough is ridiculous. What's next ? Mayday Mayday we are sinking
    How fast ? Can you get closer before calling us ?
    Are you sure that you are sinking ?

    indeed as the joke goes , Mayday mayday , we are thinking thinking
    MMRC, OK OK, calm down what are you thinking about

    no we are thinking thinking

    MMRC, I know I know


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,072 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business

    No top cover was provided by RAF Nimrods based in Kinloss Scotland and not by helicopters, they provided helicopters if required to assist in search and rescue, miss hearing Rescue 51 and 52 on the old HF frequency during taskings


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    I fail to see what the former SAR support from the RAF has got to do with anything in 2017. Surely the protocols and procedures underpinning Top Cover involving a pair of S-92s have been written down somewhere and would involving tasking them as a pair, not as two separate entities far apart in time?

    err, you clearly have missed a few points


    Top cover is far better applied by using a fast jet, Irish SAR used to have access ti RAF Nimrod to provide top cover and excellent is was as the relative speed difference, often meant that the Nimrod was over the scene first


    The sequence in this case, was the Aer Corps was contacted to provide top cover and it declined to do , ( since it effectively is a 9-5 operation and its helicopters are less capable then the S-92)

    MMRC directed 118 to launch , since its was the actual SAR event and it would be stupid to delay this .


    116 was at the other side of the country and Helis are comparatively slow

    A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Storm 10 wrote: »
    No top cover was provided by RAF Nimrods based in Kinloss Scotland and not by helicopters, they provided helicopters if required to assist in search and rescue, miss hearing Rescue 51 and 52 on the old HF frequency during taskings

    This is not actually true, for a period after the Nimrod withdrawal , top cover was provided from RAF Valley (using jets ) ( I mentioned the Nimrod top cover in the subsequent post ) RAF top cover ended on the exit from SAR activities by the RAF


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭Damien360


    BoatMad wrote: »

    A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.

    I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Damien360 wrote: »
    I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?

    either satphobe or MF/HF radio


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Damien360 wrote: »
    I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?

    aircraft have not approved sat phones for use , as I understand it


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭Damien360


    BoatMad wrote: »
    aircraft have not approved sat phones for use , as I understand it

    Far enough but it is available (albeit expensive) complete with wifi on commercial aviation with a hell of a lot more people on board. Same process for approval after testing. The cost benefit for SAR would be large.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    BoatMad wrote: »
    err, you clearly have missed a few points


    Top cover is far better applied by using a fast jet, Irish SAR used to have access ti RAF Nimrod to provide top cover and excellent is was as the relative speed difference, often meant that the Nimrod was over the scene first


    The sequence in this case, was the Aer Corps was contacted to provide top cover and it declined to do , ( since it effectively is a 9-5 operation and its helicopters are less capable then the S-92)

    MMRC directed 118 to launch , since its was the actual SAR event and it would be stupid to delay this .


    116 was at the other side of the country and Helis are comparatively slow

    A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.

    You're not answering my question. All this is an attempt at deflecting from my question which is quite simple and has nothing to do with Nimrods, fast jets, Aer Corps or whatever else could have been brought to bear in either another day, a better world or in yesteryear.

    Your point about the Aer Corps declining 'coz it's helicopters are less capable doesn't make sense as I believe only the cASAs were in the frame. So no, I don't believe I'm missing points at all; I'm finding it very difficult to relate your response to my question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    TomOnBoard wrote: »
    Nope!

    The AAIU report clearly shows that both Sligo and Dublin were contacted by Malin BEFORE a call as made to Cork.

    correct , that would be the procedure, MMRC wants to respond as quickly as possible , so it would out the birds in the air asap. it can work out the issues on route and turn them back if need be


  • Site Banned Posts: 3 Dreamliner XWB


    Just to apologise, my above post was insensitive and was removed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭TomOnBoard


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0422/869451-116/

    Divers managed to get out this afternoon and evening. That seems a huge area of the seabed to have been surveyed(14 sq km according to RTE). They managed exploratory searches on the Southern side. Back out tomorrow to focus on the Western side.

    Not sure what surveyed means in this context though??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,291 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,095 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.

    Its explained further back in thread but the short answer is:
    A) Communications relaying: Helo A is on scene, helo B is higher to transmit "over the horizon" back to ground stations on the coast
    B) Emergency recovery: If helo A has to ditch due to its rescue efforts then the crew can last long enough in immersion suits for B to pick them up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    J Mysterio wrote: »
    What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.

    As I understand it, in this case, the key requirement was to provide a communications relay between R118 which was out of radio contact at the time. I think if you read this thread, there is also a discussion on the correct term to be used because the Coast Guard and the AirCorps may use different terms. I'm open to correction on that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,344 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    ED E wrote: »
    Its explained further back in thread but the short answer is:
    A) Communications relaying: Helo A is on scene, helo B is higher to transmit "over the horizon" back to ground stations on the coast
    B) Emergency recovery: If helo A has to ditch due to its rescue efforts then the crew can last long enough in immersion suits for B to pick them up.

    So on point B) it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    All 4 SAR Bases are back operational again, EI-ICD was in Shannon for maintenance ( I presume ) the past few days but did operate as R115 yesterday, she is now back in Dublin, so as it stands we have:

    EI-ICG, Sligo, R118
    EI-ICA, Shannon, R115
    EI-ICU, Waterford, R117
    EI-ICD, Dublin, R116


This discussion has been closed.
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