Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 03:15PM

BoatMad wrote: »

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Or private air ambo if Aer Corps not available?

Especially relevant in the context of:

1. The fleet is already down 20% of its capability and
2. Each aircraft must now have a 16 man-hour intervention after every 10 hours of operation to check the tail rotor assembly in accordance with air worthiness safety instructions.

Has the helicopter not been replaced. ?

If a 5th aircraft has been brought into service, then I haven't read that. Any time the point has been raised here as to replacement, it's been said the it would not be possible to do so quickly as the replacement would need to mirror the fit out of the other 4.

BoatMad · 21-04-2017 03:18PM

Wintergirl wrote: »

Its all utterly bewildering and incomprehensible.The AAIU have all the time in the world to explain to the experts and the general public what happened.

The final report will be very interesting.

I suspect that the causes will be entirely non bewildering at the end of day. It may actually be difficult to determine how the crew accessed the APBBS route info at the end of the day.

smurfjed · 21-04-2017 03:19PM

it's been said the it would not be possible to do so quickly as the replacement would need to mirror the fit out of the other 4

That was said by a poster here and its unknown if its a true statement or not.

ED E · 21-04-2017 03:22PM

Its been mentioned many times, R116 is flying once more using the reserve AC with existing CHC crews.

de biz wrote: »

EI-ICD has taken up the Rescue 116 callsign at the Dublin base.

You commented at the same time.

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 03:27PM

smurfjed wrote: »

it's been said the it would not be possible to do so quickly as the replacement would need to mirror the fit out of the other 4

That was said by a poster here and its unknown if its a true statement or not.

I recall that this seemed to be perceived wisdom on the part of more that one poster. It appeared logical to me at the time. Ive not read anything that suggeSt's that a 5th aircraft has been added. So I'm still of the view that there are 4 aircraft in the fleet as of now.

Gaoth Laidir · 21-04-2017 03:27PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I was merely typing from memory. I was addressing a different issue , I was not commenting at that point on reaction times etc. You persist in following this single issue when is not pertinent

Not pertinent, yet you said it should be pointed out.

it should also be pointed out that the crew where notified of the " terrain " , 15-18 seconds before the final moments

Deliberately pointing out a detail, getting it wrong and then saying it wasn't pertinent are all a bit confusing when this thread is alleged to be a source of information.

Anyway, we'll leave it there.

BoatMad · 21-04-2017 03:45PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Not pertinent, yet you said it should be pointed out.

Deliberately pointing out a detail, getting it wrong and then saying it wasn't pertinent are all a bit confusing when this thread is alleged to be a source of information.

Anyway, we'll leave it there.

Thanks The timing interval was not pertinent to the point I was making, hence my imprecision .
But I'm glad we are leaving it there.

faoiarvok · 21-04-2017 03:46PM

On the subject of bringing the fleet back up to 5 airframes:

A spokesman for CHC Helicopter, Phil Allan, said a spare helicopter was available in Ireland as backup for occasions when other machines in the Coast Guard fleet were undergoing maintenance.

He said this would most likely be now deployed to Dublin, from where the crashed helicopter operated.

However, the company will have to replace it and will be seeking an additional helicopter of exactly the same type to function as a spare machine in Ireland so that there will continue to be four on active service with one on standby.

“It will have to be exactly the same, because all of the crews are trained on that model,” he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/backup-helicopter-available-to-coast-guard-1.3012198

plodder · 21-04-2017 03:48PM

Is the operator route guide a printed document or is it built into the aircraft's electronic systems?

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 04:12PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Storm 10 wrote: »

Bit off topic but Rescue 117 is on the way home after doing a medical transfer from Dublin to London, surely this should be done by the Air Corps and not take a Rescue Helicopter off station.

Or private air ambo if Aer Corps not available?

Especially relevant in the context of:

1. The fleet is already down 20% of its capability and
2. Each aircraft must now have a 16 man-hour intervention after every 10 hours of operation to check the tail rotor assembly in accordance with air worthiness safety instructions.

So, now that we've established that the fleet is operating with 80% of its contracted hardware and that reduced fleet is further restricted by the need for significant downtime every 10 hours, should its use not be restricted to SAR when other options exist for the non-SAR aspects?

BoatMad · 21-04-2017 04:28PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So, now that we've established that the fleet is operating with 80% of its contracted hardware and that reduced fleet is further restricted by the need for significant downtime every 10 hours, should its use not be restricted to SAR when other options exist for the non-SAR aspects?

In the absence of access to the decisions reached and the reasons behind that , could I suggest that we are not in a position to offer criticism

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 04:47PM

You could suggest it, but I don't accept your suggestion.

It's a perfectly legitimate question to ask, and goes nowhere near the ongoing investigation and therefore cannot be seen as speculative in that regard. As an ongoing tax-payer funded operation, aspects of ongoing IRCG activity that have been impacted by the crash are certainly capable of being commented upon just like in any other area of publicly funded activity.

Sterling Archer · 21-04-2017 07:02PM

As I see it, the only new variable is IF one aircraft is grounded due to inspection, outside of the we still have 4 available aircraft

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 07:03PM

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/over-150-divers-to-take-part-in-major-search-for-missing-rescue-116-crewmen-35643252.html

Delighted to see this is taking place this weekend.

I wish them good health and good luck for a successful outcome..

Storm 10 · 21-04-2017 07:11PM

Air Corps 139 AW276 was searching the area today , please God they will find them

Coil Kilcrea · 21-04-2017 08:11PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/over-150-divers-to-take-part-in-major-search-for-missing-rescue-116-crewmen-35643252.html

Delighted to see this is taking place this weekend.

I wish them good health and good luck for a successful outcome..

Good on them, maybe just maybe they'll find the lads and bring them home.

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 08:24PM

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0421/869367-rescue-116-search/

Sadly, nothing found in today's search. Everything now resting on tomorrow's search by divers...

Bazzy · 21-04-2017 08:40PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

In normal circumstances, yes. However, when normal circumstances do not exist, such as now, the capability needs to be wrapped in proverbial cotton wool and not used if other options exist, pending it's being brought back to 100% capability. What may have applied as "normal duties" before the intensity of tail rotor mechanism inspections became mandated in January, coupled with the loss of the aircraft in March, must surely be affected by these events. Therefore the "other options" for carrying out the previously "normal duties" need to be exhausted before the S-92 fleet is used like it would have been up to January.

But with that logic the Casa should have been providing top cover and not R116 but it didnt work like that,

The nature of that business is reactive if they are needed they go, FULL STOP

They have said they have a full fleet the article has been linked above.

The cotton wool logic is stupid that cant pick the calls they get.

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 08:42PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

Good on them, maybe just maybe they'll find the lads and bring them home.

Hopefully one or both of the missing crew, but if not, at least their seats, so that outstanding question can be answered.

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 09:04PM

Bazzy wrote: »

But with that logic the Casa should have been providing top cover and not R116 but it didnt work like that,

The nature of that business is reactive if they are needed they go, FULL STOP

They have said they have a full fleet the article has been linked above.

The cotton wool logic is stupid that cant pick the calls they get.

The CASA was explored as the 1st option, but it was not available until 08:00.

The fact that crews will always go when needed is precisely why management/decision- making before tasking must take the compromised nature of the fleet into consideration and consider all other options. And this fleet is compromised for the reasons already given.

As for your stupidity comment, well whatever!

Psychlops · 21-04-2017 09:05PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Or private air ambo if Aer Corps not available?

Especially relevant in the context of:

1. The fleet is already down 20% of its capability and
2. Each aircraft must now have a 16 man-hour intervention after every 10 hours of operation to check the tail rotor assembly in accordance with air worthiness safety instructions.

R117 did the tasking as R116 (EI-ICD) is at Shannon for maintenance I would assume, clearly visible on Marine Traffic.

Psychlops · 21-04-2017 09:07PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Has the helicopter not been replaced. ?

No new helicopter acquired yet but there are 4 S92's now,

As it stands:

EI-ICG-R118-Sligo
EI-ICA-R115-Shannon
EI-ICU-R117-Waterford
EI-ICD-R116-Dublin but at present at Shannon since yesterday afternoon, maintenance I would say.

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 09:07PM

Psychlops wrote: »

R117 did the tasking as R116 (EI-ICD) is at Shannon for maintenance I would assume, clearly visible on Marine Traffic.

If that's the case, then right now we're down to 3 operational airframes.

Bazzy · 21-04-2017 09:22PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

The CASA was explored as the 1st option, but it was not available until 08:00.

The fact that crews will always go when needed is precisely why management/decision- making before tasking must take the compromised nature of the fleet into consideration and consider all other options. And this fleet is compromised for the reasons already given.

As for your stupidity comment, well whatever!

Yes but with your "Cotton Wool" approach your saying they should turn down tasks?

TomOnBoard · 21-04-2017 09:36PM

Bazzy wrote: »

Yes but with your "Cotton Wool" approach your saying they should turn down tasks?

Read what I have written! While the service's capability is compromised, then any/all other options should be considered before a crew is tasked.

If, right this moment, we are now down to 3 operational airframes, would that fact not be front and centre in the minds of the services controllers if a similar situation of the Fishing vessel reporting a casualty happened right now? I would hope so, and would hope that all options would be considered. That hypothetical situation illustrates the need for decision making at the overall fleet management level, before a crew would ever be tasked.

If you can't see the logic in what I'm saying, and resort to characterising that logic as stupid, then there's no point in my wasting my time pursuing it further.

Atlantic Dawn · 21-04-2017 10:58PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0421/869367-rescue-116-search/

Sadly, nothing found in today's search. Everything now resting on tomorrow's search by divers...

What I can't understand is from day 1 about 3 weeks plus ago when they discovered the helicopter collided with the island why wasn't that a primary search site to firstly search for the missing crew? The search party on the island would be a specialist mountain rescue unit so it's not as if these people would be taken from the underwater search team resources.

Bazzy · 21-04-2017 11:04PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Read what I have written! While the service's capability is compromised, then any/all other options should be considered before a crew is tasked.

If, right this moment, we are now down to 3 operational airframes, would that fact not be front and centre in the minds of the services controllers if a similar situation of the Fishing vessel reporting a casualty happened right now? I would hope so, and would hope that all options would be considered. That hypothetical situation illustrates the need for decision making at the overall fleet management level, before a crew would ever be tasked.

If you can't see the logic in what I'm saying, and resort to characterising that logic as stupid, then there's no point in my wasting my time pursuing it further.

The whole nature of their business is to react to a situation , every time they take off its a risk , they have had a horrific situation but the reality is they can only learn from the past and not a lot from the future

it goes against the whole logic of the entire organisation to screen calls or try get someone else to cover them

robyntmorton · 22-04-2017 11:41AM

Wintergirl wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/gp-questions-merit-of-rescue-116-call-out-for-tip-of-a-finger-1.3056818

Has it been confirmed officially how serious the injury was.

The severity of the injury really is irrelevant to this event. If a SAR crew is told to go, they go, whether it is for a finger or an amputated leg or anything.

The only time the injury becomes relevant is in high level management, where the communication between SAR, doctors, and the incident vessel should be clear. It's not that simple though, with language barriers and concern for an injured crewmate making it difficult to communicate effectively. If you are struggling with language, and don't know finger but know hand, you say hand. Should the doctors say "It might be serious but it might not be. Sail into port and we will help then?"

The loss of 116 was a tragedy, and we need to learn from it, but we shouldn't make it more difficult to access a lifesaving service by quibbling over the severity of an injury.

AmboMan · 22-04-2017 12:24PM

robyntmorton wrote: »

The severity of the injury really is irrelevant to this event. If a SAR crew is told to go, they go, whether it is for a finger or an amputated leg or anything.

The only time the injury becomes relevant is in high level management, where the communication between SAR, doctors, and the incident vessel should be clear. It's not that simple though, with language barriers and concern for an injured crewmate making it difficult to communicate effectively. If you are struggling with language, and don't know finger but know hand, you say hand. Should the doctors say "It might be serious but it might not be. Sail into port and we will help then?"

The loss of 116 was a tragedy, and we need to learn from it, but we shouldn't make it more difficult to access a lifesaving service by quibbling over the severity of an injury.

I don't think the CG use a triage system such as the AMPDS used by the National Ambulance Service, perhaps if they did a distal limb injury would have been identified and two helicopters would not have been dispatched for this call.
From recollection of reading the report the crew are not told to go on the call, they are informed of the details and have to accept the call ?
Unfortunately people do call ambulances for tooth ache & period pain etc

Wintergirl · 22-04-2017 12:45PM

No member of my family would out a parachute on their back and make their way to the cliffs of Moher, do people do these things with the prior approval of the OPW or whoever looks after the Cliffs of Moher, should they not pay for their own helicopter and ambulance to stand by in case the parachute opens.

I am a taxpayer and I am entitled to query how my taxes are being spent, the cost of the SAR is colossal, I and many other people would have had no idea prior to this accident how colossal.We wouldn't have had any idea either that two expensive helicopters and eight people would be sent out in the early morning to pick up someone with an injury to their finger.

We know now and we will be asking a lot of questions about this, unlike you we think in this particular incident should never have happened because the SAR shouldn't have been sent out.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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