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Ten Of The Most Massive Warships In The World. Interestingly Brazil and India are included, US Nimitz class is tops -
http://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-i/battlefield-1-review-powerful-emotional-campaign-fun-engaging-multiplayer.html
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Stars and Stripes wrote: »" epic " to get a single bomb on an airfield !! Not exactly a bang for yer buck, another heroic failure story for the Brits yet again
The point of the Black Buck raids was not to damage a runway, or even damage aircraft - it was to make the Junta realise that the RAF possessed the capacity to 'reach out and touch' the Argentine mainland, and specifically Buenos Aires.
The tactical damage inflicted was minimal - although the cratering and the botched repairs prevented the FAA from using it for fast jet operations, which meant jets had to fly from Argentina across a couple of hundred miles of open water (always popular among drivers of single-engined jets
)......and that a proportion had to be held back for air defence on the off chance Mr Vulcan might make a house call.
......it was bit like the attack of the Hell Divers at Midway - they only scored 6 hits but the strategic and political damage that resulted far, far outweighed the immediate tactical damage.
The real 'beauty' of the Black Buck raids was the re-fueling plan - you'd think to get so many aircraft so far south and back again safely the plan would be complicated - and the Yanks certainly thought so. They were helping the RAF out with some computer support and the story goes they produced a computer printout that ran to 90 pages detailing the choreography of the plan.......the senior RAF planner, looked at it, pulled out a single page of A4 and sketched a schematic to show how it would work - it was utter simplicity.0 -
The point of the Black Buck raids was not to damage a runway, or even damage aircraft - it was to make the Junta realise that the RAF possessed the capacity to 'reach out and touch' the Argentine mainland, and specifically Buenos Aires.
The tactical damage inflicted was minimal - although the cratering and the botched repairs prevented the FAA from using it for fast jet operations, which meant jets had to fly from Argentina across a couple of hundred miles of open water (always popular among drivers of single-engined jets)......and that a proportion had to be held back for air defence on the off chance Mr Vulcan might make a house call.
......it was bit like the attack of the Hell Divers at Midway - they only scored 6 hits but the strategic and political damage that resulted far, far outweighed the immediate tactical damage.
The real 'beauty' of the Black Buck raids was the re-fueling plan - you'd think to get so many aircraft so far south and back again safely the plan would be complicated - and the Yanks certainly thought so. They were helping the RAF out with some computer support and the story goes they produced a computer printout that ran to 90 pages detailing the choreography of the plan.......the senior RAF planner, looked at it, pulled out a single page of A4 and sketched a schematic to show how it would work - it was utter simplicity.
Listen, they could have caused a tear in the space time continuum in which intelligent life forms peered through and decided such an audacious flight plane proved mankind was evolved enough to receive such information as to cure cancer, travel faster than light and make proper kebab house sauce at home and stars and stripes would not be impressed saying stupid Brits closed down my local kids hospital and up da garlic!0 -
Listen, they could have caused a tear in the space time continuum in which intelligent life forms peered through and decided such an audacious flight plane proved mankind was evolved enough to receive such information as to cure cancer, travel faster than light and make proper kebab house sauce at home and stars and stripes would not be impressed saying stupid Brits closed down my local kids hospital and up da garlic!
yeah, I'm sure I've seen that film:D:D
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And the winner for the best fictional post of the week goes to - Jawgap !! Must have been the most expensive hole in the history of the world, they should have got a few lads from the local council with a JCB who could have done the same for a millionth of the cost and it would probably have been betterThe point of the Black Buck raids was not to damage a runway, or even damage aircraft - it was to make the Junta realise that the RAF possessed the capacity to 'reach out and touch' the Argentine mainland, and specifically Buenos Aires.
The tactical damage inflicted was minimal - although the cratering and the botched repairs prevented the FAA from using it for fast jet operations, which meant jets had to fly from Argentina across a couple of hundred miles of open water (always popular among drivers of single-engined jets)......and that a proportion had to be held back for air defence on the off chance Mr Vulcan might make a house call.
......it was bit like the attack of the Hell Divers at Midway - they only scored 6 hits but the strategic and political damage that resulted far, far outweighed the immediate tactical damage.
The real 'beauty' of the Black Buck raids was the re-fueling plan - you'd think to get so many aircraft so far south and back again safely the plan would be complicated - and the Yanks certainly thought so. They were helping the RAF out with some computer support and the story goes they produced a computer printout that ran to 90 pages detailing the choreography of the plan.......the senior RAF planner, looked at it, pulled out a single page of A4 and sketched a schematic to show how it would work - it was utter simplicity. 0 -
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Stars and Stripes wrote: »And the winner for the best fictional post of the week goes to - Jawgap !! Must have been the most expensive hole in the history of the world, they should have got a few lads from the local council with a JCB who could have done the same for a millionth of the cost and it would probably have been better
Strategic bombing isn't about damage - its about politics.
The Doolittle Raid - as referenced earlier - did nothing in terms of impacting Japanese steel or munitions output but it did shocked the Japanese to their core.
Likewise, the early RAF raids against Berlin were utterly farcical.
Btw, don't take my word for it.......I won't be Martin vanCreveld biggest fan, but my opinion is based on his analysis (in the Age of Airpower) - but sure what would a Dutchman who teaches in the US Navy War College and who is the only non-Yank on the US Army's officer's reading list, know about such matters?
....given we're pretty much talking about the pre-GPS, pre-internet era and they were using radar bombing tech that a Lancaster crew over Germany would have recognised, it was some feat of airmanship......and the whole matter of going half way around the world, with the wrong kind of kit and evicting an enemy from defensive positions they've had weeks to prepare..... is studied to death by staff colleges around the world - it even gets an honourable mention in the PLA-endorsed tome "Unrestricted Warfare."0 -
Yep, I'm sure the Argentine command were quaking in their boots when they heard about the hole made in the runway and the people of Buenos Aires were jamming the tv and radio stations in fear of their existence and demanding their troops be immediately returnedStrategic bombing isn't about damage - its about politics.
The Doolittle Raid - as referenced earlier - did nothing in terms of impacting Japanese steel or munitions output but it did shocked the Japanese to their core.
Likewise, the early RAF raids against Berlin were utterly farcical.
Btw, don't take my word for it.......I won't be Martin vanCreveld biggest fan, but my opinion is based on his analysis (in the Age of Airpower) - but sure what would a Dutchman who teaches in the US Navy War College and who is the only non-Yank on the US Army's officer's reading list, know about such matters?
....given we're pretty much talking about the pre-GPS, pre-internet era and they were using radar bombing tech that a Lancaster crew over Germany would have recognised, it was some feat of airmanship......and the whole matter of going half way around the world, with the wrong kind of kit and evicting an enemy from defensive positions they've had weeks to prepare..... is studied to death by staff colleges around the world - it even gets an honourable mention in the PLA-endorsed tome "Unrestricted Warfare."
Should have got the lads from the local council though, mush cheaper and you could then have claimed it was the SAS in a daring do mission 0 -
Stars and Stripes wrote: »Interesting perspective on the American Civil War -
Kind of makes you wonder how they lost at places like Missionary Ridge, or why they weren't able to stop Grant's Wilderness Campaign - where the terrain favoured infantry?0 -
Stars and Stripes wrote: »Yep, I'm sure the Argentine command were quaking in their boots when they heard about the hole made in the runway and the people of Buenos Aires were jamming the tv and radio stations in fear of their existence and demanding their troops be immediately returned Should have got the lads from the local council though, mush cheaper and you could then have claimed it was the SAS in a daring do mission
It wasn't really about the damage - it was about the impact. Instead of having a flight of a few minutes over open water to attack the RN, the FAA had to fly for 200 miles.......instead of having all their aircraft available for offensive operations, they had to keep fully a third back.......it's a bit like the sinking of the ARA Belgrano - the loss was catastrophic but the impact was even greater as it led the Argentinians to pull back their only carrier and keep it in port......meaning it's A4s had to fly from Rio Grande......meaning each aircraft could likely only do one sortie per day......when the Sea Harriers were averaging 1.41 sorties per day.
Incidentally, looking at the FAA deployments - 12 Mirage IIIs were held at Moreno to cover Buenos Aires......with more at Rio Gallegos to provide air defence cover for Rio Grande.....and more still at other bases to provide air defence......
......so of a combat strength of about 103 fighter aircraft, the Argentinian Navy and Air Force had to commit nearly 30% of their force to air defence....and nearly all their Mirage III force.....all because someone made a hole in the ground
.....it also meant leaving the A4s and SuperEtendards to do the heavy lifting in attacking the RN taskforce.....which is probably why the poor sods in the A4s got hammered.0 -
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According to Major Walter F. DeHoust of Marine Corps Development and Education Comman of Quantico, Virginia -It wasn't really about the damage - it was about the impact. Instead of having a flight of a few minutes over open water to attack the RN, the FAA had to fly for 200 miles.......instead of having all their aircraft available for offensive operations, they had to keep fully a third back.......it's a bit like the sinking of the ARA Belgrano - the loss was catastrophic but the impact was even greater as it led the Argentinians to pull back their only carrier and keep it in port......meaning it's A4s had to fly from Rio Grande......meaning each aircraft could likely only do one sortie per day......when the Sea Harriers were averaging 1.41 sorties per day.
Incidentally, looking at the FAA deployments - 12 Mirage IIIs were held at Moreno to cover Buenos Aires......with more at Rio Gallegos to provide air defence cover for Rio Grande.....and more still at other bases to provide air defence......
......so of a combat strength of about 103 fighter aircraft, the Argentinian Navy and Air Force had to commit nearly 30% of their force to air defence....and nearly all their Mirage III force.....all because someone made a hole in the ground
.....it also meant leaving the A4s and SuperEtendards to do the heavy lifting in attacking the RN taskforce.....which is probably why the poor sods in the A4s got hammered.
" There are mixed opinions as to the purpose or success of the Vulcan raids. To the British, the raids were fruitful, especially the first, in which the airfield at Port Stanley was cratered. They believed that the Argentines intended to operate Mirage III's and perhaps Super Etendard's from the airfield and the cratering by the Vulcans iron bombs prevented such use. Had the Mirages operated from Port Stanley to carry out its intended mission of intercepting the Vulcans7, substantial loss of the bombers may have been incurred. "
" However, the success of BLACK BUCK can be at best described as minimal. The seven attempted missions included three aborts, three of undetermined results and one of minimal success (the first). The runway was continually used by Argentine C-130's until the end of the war. The Argentines would leave the runway covered with piles of dirt during the day causing British intelligence to surmise that repairs were still in progress. This deception mislead the British as to the condition of the airfield and the success of their raids. The most critical judgment of the use of the Vulcan centers on the argument that their use was "...largely to prove [the air force] had some role to play and not to help the battle in the least." This illustrates the practice of armed services to actively seek a "piece of the action" when a conflict arises, even if their capabilities or mission are not compatible with the circumstances of the conflict. Using BLACK BUCK as an example shows the effects of this practice can be trivial and the results not worth the effort involved. "
There ya go me old China, should have let the lads from the council dig the hole 0 -
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