Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

wotswattage · 06-04-2017 11:19AM

To put the wreckage area in perspective, it was apparently located 60m from the shore of Blackrock. The Granuaile has a length of 79m so even trying to get the vessel overhead in good weather was always going to be difficult..

Then the underwater search area was described as about the size of a football pitch, presumably centered on or around the main wreckage site - which at 60m out and 40m down means the seabed slopes out to that point at an average of over 30 degrees. Basically an uneven football pitch slanted at 30 degrees!

Searching that in the currents, swell and dim light for 10 minutes at a time is going to be a nightmare.

ectoraige · 06-04-2017 11:25AM

The Civil Defence do have some of the larger drones and do use them with mutliple operators to search coastlines. Wind is a factor but they absolutely do use them over cliff edges etc. as a safer search method rather than putting a pair of Mk. 1 eyeballs in position. Footage is also re-reviewed as need be.

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 11:27AM

wotswattage wrote: »

To put the wreckage area in perspective, it was apparently located 60m from the shore of Blackrock. The Granuaile has a length of 79m so even trying to get the vessel overhead in good weather was always going to be difficult..

Then the underwater search area was described as about the size of a football pitch, presumably centered on or around the main wreckage site - which at 60m out and 40m down means the seabed slopes out to that point at an average of over 30 degrees. Basically an uneven football pitch slanted at 30 degrees!

Searching that in the currents, swell and dim light for 10 minutes at a time is going to be a nightmare.

A DSV and saturation divers would be a better option in my view. But costs could be horrendous.

ted1 · 06-04-2017 11:35AM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I think the point is that, based on what has been said officially so far, below water searches by divers immediately out from the shoreline have not been possible as the swells, coupled with the extremely craggy terrain below water makes that too dangerous. Therefore it appears that what you characterise as B pertains.

Gaoth Laidir's point, with which I would agree, is that ways of searching this area, particularly from the Westerly shore through South to the East, by some means other than divers may be needed. That can knit well with ongoing searches above the shoreline by 'eyes-on', drones or whatever as well as the intended Granuaile deployment of the ROV from tomorrow morning. I not that the reports I've seen suggest that even Granuaile's efforts will be focussed on the area between Blackrock and Parrot rock, and not on the area Gaoth Laider is referring to, an area which would not be searchable by that large ROV anyway.

...and the area between where it may have impacted the rock and the ocean. A key area if the poor guys were thrown clear after the collision.

I'd say the area where they recovered Captain Fitzpatrick would indicate what direction the bodies went.

Kalyke · 06-04-2017 11:44AM

BoatMad wrote: »

That's interesting have they identified where they will be diving

I am not sure, sorry.

ED E · 06-04-2017 11:46AM

Just saw SAR 250002897 pass over south Dublin headed east. New 116 or one of her sisters?

Update: Its tail ICD so according to earlier posters thats 116.

TomOnBoard · 06-04-2017 11:51AM

wotswattage wrote: »

To put the wreckage area in perspective, it was apparently located 60m from the shore of Blackrock. The Granuaile has a length of 79m so even trying to get the vessel overhead in good weather was always going to be difficult..

Then the underwater search area was described as about the size of a football pitch, presumably centered on or around the main wreckage site - which at 60m out and 40m down means the seabed slopes out to that point at an average of over 30 degrees. Basically an uneven football pitch slanted at 30 degrees!

Searching that in the currents, swell and dim light for 10 minutes at a time is going to be a nightmare.

There's no mention in press reports of divers being used in today's efforts- just the ROV

homerjay2005 · 06-04-2017 11:56AM

ED E wrote: »

Just saw SAR 250002897 pass over south Dublin headed east. New 116 or one of her sisters?

Update: Its tail ICD so according to earlier posters thats 116.

ya just passed over my house there a few mins ago. seems to be heading to england maybe?

it does appear to be heading in the direction of a trawler in the Irish sea however.

wexandproud · 06-04-2017 12:00PM

kerry cow wrote: »

These bodies have moved from black rock in my opinion and will be found on mainland shore line .The movement of current and tide will have moved them from black rock .

quiet possible , but if the poor fellas were strapped into a seat that became detached from the main heli , they could be close enough to an area between where the first contact was made and where the fuselage is .
A body in cold water floats after about 8 or 10 days depending on several factors , it then sinks after a few days and refloats again for a short spell after about 21 days.
Last one I recovered was exactly 21 days after he went missing

ps about time the civilians were brought in

Gadgetman496 · 06-04-2017 12:00PM

ED E wrote: »

Just saw SAR 250002897 pass over south Dublin headed east. New 116 or one of her sisters?

Update: Its tail ICD so according to earlier posters thats 116.

Yep EI-ICD - Now the replacement R116 based at Dublin.

homerjay2005 · 06-04-2017 12:01PM

ya, appears to be taking a casualty from this

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:285934/

Storm 10 · 06-04-2017 12:32PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ya, appears to be taking a casualty from this

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:285934/

They were training

Gaoth Laidir · 06-04-2017 12:40PM

The L.É Ciara has joined Granuaile out at Blackrock now.

Reati · 06-04-2017 01:56PM

Cianmcliam wrote: »

Not sure I'd agree with the above re. drone searches. Even with the 12MP sensors on consumer drones you can program a flight path with 80% overlap photographs at around 40m above ground level and get a 3D model or a stitched orthophoto with an accuracy down to 3-4cm per pixel, much more resolution than needed to find a person or debris. I did a pass once at 120m up and can identify individual stones less than 10cm in size. You could do a flight path up to 25mph winds no problem, I've done it before.

Yes 25mph is less than 10m/s so you can fly in that.

I've done many orthos in my day. What your talking about works if the objects don't move between your original sweep for photos and the time it takes to process the imaging into an ortho and explore the details of it. So it's not cut out for the example I referenced of drones doing sea surface searchs.

Even with the best computer it takes a few hours to build in the resolution you describe excluding the time to get the images to the computer. Not to include the cost of buying a license for that software which is ridiculous.

I'm dunno if it's a technique that's used by the SAR teams using drones but it I would agree for non time critical things it would be very useful. You can even use much lower cost drones which could be risked in bad weather as they would be cheap to replace.

gctest50 · 06-04-2017 02:06PM

BoatMad wrote: »

......... the potential search area is huge and we have no way of covering it quickly using technology.

there is, but it gets used for other things instead of searches

Hexagon Spy Satellite photo from 1980's

http://imgur.com/9HlK0hJ

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 02:08PM

gctest50 wrote: »

there is, but it gets used for other things instead of searches

Hexagon Spy Satellite photo from 1980's

http://imgur.com/9HlK0hJ

Which would be great if they crashed on a cricket field. We have no way of searching under water from above it

gctest50 · 06-04-2017 02:13PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Which would be great if they crashed on a cricket field. We have no way of searching under water from above it

I just meant general searches for debris etc

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 02:21PM

gctest50 wrote: »

I just meant general searches for debris etc

They know where all the surface debris is. ( and the under water debris ( in general )

Pete67 · 06-04-2017 02:34PM

LE Ciara has departed Blackrock and is heading North at speed.

gctest50 · 06-04-2017 02:38PM

BoatMad wrote: »

They know where all the surface debris is. ( and the under water debris ( in general )

They'd want to, it's been three weeks now

As you said yourself, should have got the pros in first day :

BoatMad wrote: »

A DSV and saturation divers would be a better option in my view. But costs could be horrendous.

L1011 · 06-04-2017 05:41PM

gctest50 wrote: »

As you said yourself, should have got the pros in first day :

Weather and sea conditions were not suitable for quite some time. Also, its not as if CIL, ICG, Naval Service etc etc are not professionals

gctest50 · 06-04-2017 06:01PM

L1011 wrote: »

................

Also, its not as if CIL, ICG, Naval Service etc etc are not professionals

pro recovery teams, ones that do it all the time for a living

hth

gctest50 · 06-04-2017 06:13PM

BoatMad wrote: »

A DSV and saturation divers would be a better option in my view. But costs could be horrendous.

BoatMad wrote: »

.......... But costs could be horrendous.

horrendous. - how horrendous ?

How much would it be ?

2,500,000 ? ( about 50cents a person )

5,000,000 ? ( about 1e / person )

worth it to maximise chances of getting four of irelands best back and to suss potentional faults that might bring another s92 down

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 06:13PM

L1011 wrote: »

Weather and sea conditions were not suitable for quite some time. Also, its not as if CIL, ICG, Naval Service etc etc are not professionals

In respect of long term underwater diving , no they are not professionals and only of the bunch you mention, the naval service would have " some " experience. "

Nor is CIL a professional body is what they are doing here.

BoatMad · 06-04-2017 06:22PM

gctest50 wrote: »

horrendous. - how horrendous ?

How much would it be ?

2,500,000 ? ( about 50cents a person )

5,000,000 ? ( about 1e / person )

worth it to maximise chances of getting four of irelands best back and to suss potentional faults that might bring another s92 down

Can I just say that I find uses of the term " four of irelands best " etc rather disengenuios . SAR frontline staff are not Heros or employed to put their lives in danger. In fact there whole training is to dial out any " heroism " and replace it with SOPs , proper training and good appropriate equipment.

The goal is never to have to rescue the rescuer. To the outsider for example say a RNLI lifeboat putting to sea when everyone else is sheltering in harbour , may seem " brave" or "heroic " . To the people involved , these are ordinary prople benefitting from good training and having appropriate equipment.

The SAR personel missing deserve ever effort to try and recover their bodies, but so does any citizen so lost.

L1011 · 06-04-2017 06:47PM

gctest50 wrote: »

hth

You can cut the sarcasm

TomOnBoard · 06-04-2017 07:10PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Can I just say that I find uses of the term " four of irelands best " etc rather disengenuios . SAR frontline staff are not Heros or employed to put their lives in danger. In fact there whole training is to dial out any " heroism " and replace it with SOPs , proper training and good appropriate equipment.

The goal is never to have to rescue the rescuer. To the outsider for example say a RNLI lifeboat putting to sea when everyone else is sheltering in harbour , may seem " brave" or "heroic " . To the people involved , these are ordinary prople benefitting from good training and having appropriate equipment.

The SAR personel missing deserve ever effort to try and recover their bodies, but so does any citizen so lost.

+1

In most situations, Heroics is the last thing I want to see from professionals in any field. Sound and faithful application of SOPs, exercising of good judgement and decision-making based on rigorous education and training in the face of non-standard situations presenting, willingness to learn from and work with others are all much better indicators of good quality outcomes than is heroic activity.

That said, from time to time, individual team members will perform certain tasks in a heroic manner in a way that might be characterised as above and beyond the call of duty. In such cases, the professionalism I want to see becomes heroic, and I'm fine with that.

Every day, we see people who performs such heroics and we rightly acknowledge them. That's what gives rise to medals and awards for bravery. However, overuse or misuse of the term diminishes its meaning and value. When it segues into descriptions such as "4 of Ireland's best", it detracts from the fact that they were out there doing their duty.

elastico · 06-04-2017 07:35PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Can I just say that I find uses of the term " four of irelands best " etc rather disengenuios . SAR frontline staff are not Heros or employed to put their lives in danger. In fact there whole training is to dial out any " heroism " and replace it with SOPs , proper training and good appropriate equipment.

The goal is never to have to rescue the rescuer. To the outsider for example say a RNLI lifeboat putting to sea when everyone else is sheltering in harbour , may seem " brave" or "heroic " . To the people involved , these are ordinary prople benefitting from good training and having appropriate equipment.

The SAR personel missing deserve ever effort to try and recover their bodies, but so does any citizen so lost.

Well said.

These are professionals paid to do a job safely. They are not paid to take risks or behave "heroic" every time they go to work.

They are not sent into combat like a soldier.

arubex · 06-04-2017 08:45PM

BoatMad wrote: »

To the outsider for example say a RNLI lifeboat putting to sea when everyone else is sheltering in harbour , may seem " brave" or "heroic " .

Whilst I agree with your sentiments overall, the choice of RNLI as an example was perhaps off-target.

The RNLI and other local lifeboat association crews are volunteers*, unpaid, who give their time to train and to rescue. They don't receive reward for doing it, they do it for the benefit of fellow humans. They could walk away at any point, without consequences; in fact financially they'd probably benefit. The fact that they don't makes them brave, in my opinion.

* generally only their headquarter staff are paid employees, though the RNLI in the UK has one professional lifeboat crew

Steve · 06-04-2017 09:10PM

arubex wrote: »

Whilst I agree with your sentiments overall, the choice of RNLI as an example was perhaps off-target.

The RNLI and other local lifeboat association crews are volunteers*, unpaid, who give their time to train and to rescue. They don't receive reward for doing it, they do it for the benefit of fellow humans. They could walk away at any point, without consequences; in fact financially they'd probably benefit. The fact that they don't makes them brave, in my opinion.

* generally only their headquarter staff are paid employees, though the RNLI in the UK has one professional lifeboat crew

There is no doubting their bravery. No more or less than other emergency services crew whos job it is to venture into dangerous situations and save lives.

*I believe the Cox is paid in RNLI crews here.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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