Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 06:53PM

BoatMad wrote: »

good point, they need to get moving , but I presume CHC are contracted to supply an airframe, so I presume , given their resources, this shouldn't be two much of an issue

I would think the issue becomes one of the right spec to integrate with the present fleet.

TomOnBoard · 04-04-2017 07:05PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

I would think the issue becomes one of the right spec to integrate with the present fleet.

I take that point. My point really is the need for the CoastGuard, who are contracting CHC in to provide the service, to make a statement addressing all relevant questions (including the need for correct specification) independently of the ongoing recovery efforts. It would not be for any of the agencies involved in the recovery or investigation to deal with this; it is a job for the CG alone as the contract holder on behalf of the Irish people.

roadmaster · 04-04-2017 07:05PM

I think it was said a few posts back that it will not be to easy to pick up a S92 SAR version straight away as they are custom built.so as an interm measure until they get one would be possible to get a S61 back as a spare since I'd say nearly all the existing crews would have used these aircraft in the past or is that no go due to having to recertfy aircrews and ground crew?

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 07:11PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I take that point. My point really is the need for the CoastGuard, who are contracting CHC in to provide the service, to make a statement addressing all relevant questions (including the need for correct specification) independently of the ongoing recovery efforts. It would not be for any of the agencies involved in the recovery or investigation to deal with this; it is a job for the CG alone as the contract holder on behalf of the Irish people.

And it's a very good point, that needs to be addressed by the ICG as soon as practically possible.

Gaoth Laidir · 04-04-2017 07:49PM

Not to mention the need to replace the crew of R116. Sad, but needs to be done.

gctest50 · 04-04-2017 07:54PM

roadmaster wrote: »

I think it was said a few posts back that it will not be to easy to pick up a S92 SAR version straight away as they are custom built.....

They were all ex-UK Coastguard, except one ( it was new)

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 08:06PM

I'm wondering if the crews are interchangeable between bases or fixed for a period of time? It must be quite a logistical exercise.

TomOnBoard · 04-04-2017 08:21PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Not to mention the need to replace the crew of R116. Sad, but needs to be done.

Typically, is there just 1 crew per helicopter to provide 24/7 cover? surely not??

Gaoth Laidir · 04-04-2017 08:57PM

Does anyone know how much the shoreline around Blackrock has been searched? Being a pretty hazardous place to navigate by boat I wonder has any detailed search been conducted by divers there. I can't imagine such rocky shallows would be easy to search but I hope they can focus in that southern shoreline in case the two winchmen were thrown from the aircraft.

Tenger · 04-04-2017 09:03PM

The issue of loss of cover has been discussed already. No doubt there are legal and technical folks in CHC and ICG dealing with this issue. It may seem callous but the role of the SAR operation doesnt stop being needed.
There are definitely more than 1 crew per airframe. I'm not sure how many. I would assume 3 to cover illness, rest times, 24 hour cover and holiday time?

Any interim replacement would have to be of the similar spec to the current fleet for best practise.

JimWinters · 04-04-2017 09:12PM

Looking at old photos, both the winchman and winch operator are wearing personal floatations devices. Does anyone know if these are manually activated or would they inflate on contact with water?

Surely SOPs will be updated to activate EPRIBs and life jackets automatically or on a short delay?

Storm 10 · 04-04-2017 09:14PM

Read over on pprune that one of the Aberdeen spare S92s is kitted out by CHC to Irish Coastguard spec in case they ever need to send a spare to Ireland, I guess they won't have to wait too long to get one

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 09:19PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Does anyone know how much the shoreline around Blackrock has been searched? Being a pretty hazardous place to navigate by boat I wonder has any detailed search been conducted by divers there. I can't imagine such rocky shallows would be easy to search but I hope they can focus in that southern shoreline in case the two winchmen were thrown from the aircraft.

I would think it almost impossible for divers to search close-in given the dangerous conditions. To complete the recovery and lift the wreckage was a hell of an achievement. I'm sure they searched as much as they could in the circumstances.

Psychlops · 04-04-2017 09:21PM

gctest50 wrote: »

They were all ex-UK Coastguard, except one ( it was new)

EI-ICG is brand new from the States.

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 09:27PM

Psychlops wrote: »

EI-ICG is brand new from the States.

Built to order for CHC for ICG contract?

Gaoth Laidir · 04-04-2017 09:29PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

I would think it almost impossible for divers to search close-in given the dangerous conditions. To complete the recovery and lift the wreckage was a hell of an achievement. I'm sure they searched as much as they could in the circumstances.

Hopefully conditions will eventually calm down enough to allow it as it could be a key area.

faoiarvok · 04-04-2017 09:30PM

JimWinters wrote: »

Surely SOPs will be updated to activate EPRIBs and life jackets automatically or on a short delay?

The last thing you want if your aircraft hits the water and starts filling up is a life jacket inflating and impeding your escape from the aircraft.

Psychlops · 04-04-2017 09:36PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

I'm wondering if the crews are interchangeable between bases or fixed for a period of time? It must be quite a logistical exercise.

AFAIK there are multiple crews at the 4 bases.

http://www.dttas.ie/maritime/english/s-92a-technical-details

Staff

Contractor Flight Staff

Captains
27

Co-Pilots
12

Winch Operators
25

Winchpersons
12

Engineers
38

Flight/Ground Ops Support
3

Logistic/Tech records Support
3

Engineering Apprentice
4

Coil Kilcrea · 04-04-2017 09:36PM

JimWinters wrote: »

Looking at old photos, both the winchman and winch operator are wearing personal floatations devices. Does anyone know if these are manually activated or would they inflate on contact with water?

Surely SOPs will be updated to activate EPRIBs and life jackets automatically or on a short delay?

I believe that they're manually activated to prevent accidental inflation given the nature of the job and frequent contact with water.

TomOnBoard · 04-04-2017 09:38PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Hopefully conditions will eventually calm down enough to allow it as it could be a key area.

I appreciate that it may be very difficult to do. However, I would agree that any areas on the western to south eastern fringes of the island require as much attention as was given to the area below the fuselage. It may require a technology based approach not already used rather than divers, but I would not not like to see efforts winding down before such an examination would be conducted.

TomOnBoard · 04-04-2017 09:59PM

Psychlops wrote: »

EI-ICG is brand new from the States.

Is brand new, or Was brand new when delivered?

irishfire · 04-04-2017 10:03PM

TomOnBoard wrote:

Is brand new, or Was brand new when delivered?

EI-ICG was purchased for the CHC contract and came new to the ICG. It was used for training and familiarisation in the first few months and then became the spare when 4 re-purposed S92's became the service airframes from the UK.

Psychlops · 04-04-2017 10:15PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

Built to order for CHC for ICG contract?

I would say yes as when she was in the US in Sikorsky's Coatesville plant she had the US Register of N150AL and was already in the livery of The Irish Coast Guard.

Psychlops · 04-04-2017 10:21PM

irishfire wrote: »

EI-ICG was purchased for the CHC contract and came new to the ICG. It was used for training and familiarisation in the first few months and then became the spare when 4 re-purposed S92's became the service airframes from the UK.

She didn't become the spare, EI-ICD is the spare, that's the S92 that was never given a name by the competition that was ran to name them.

EI-ICG was the 1st S92 to go "live" as RESCUE115 on the 1st July 2012, she also carried out the first rescue mission as RESCUE115 on the very first day that she went operational.

Psychlops · 04-04-2017 10:22PM

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Is brand new, or Was brand new when delivered?

Factory fresh when delivered.

irishfire · 04-04-2017 10:32PM

Psychlops wrote:

EI-ICG was the 1st S92 to go "live" as RESCUE115 on the 1st July 2012, she also carried out the first rescue mission as RESCUE115 on the very first day that she went operational.

Psychlops wrote:

She didn't become the spare, EI-ICD is the spare, that's the S92 that was never given a name by the competition that was ran to name them.

Apologies you're correct, EI-ICG took over from the existing Shannon S61 after training.

TomOnBoard · 04-04-2017 11:08PM

JimWinters wrote: »

Looking at old photos, both the winchman and winch operator are wearing personal floatations devices. Does anyone know if these are manually activated or would they inflate on contact with water?

Surely SOPs will be updated to activate EPRIBs and life jackets automatically or on a short delay?

Clearly the information that we know in respect of the pilots is that

1. Capt. Fitzpatrick was found on the surface but many hours had elapsed. This clearly shows that the life jacket was not an issue, but the lack of a working beacon was.

2. Capt. Duffy was not able to exit the helicopter, so neither life jacket nor beacon is at issue here.

3. Neither of the winching crew have been found so we don't know whether life jackets were an issue or not. What we do know is that if either or both of them floated the lack of beacon signals is an issue. If they did not float, then beacons would not have helped but clearly flotation devices would be an issue. Until one or both men are recovered, we can not answer these questions.

A very clear focus, which can answer questions, will need to be placed on why it took so long to find Capt Fitzpatrick. It's not for us here to provide that focus as we do not have a sufficiently clear lens to bring to bear; but it needs the appropriate authority, probably the Coroner at the inquest, to deal with it. I for one will be watching that very closely.

iguot · 04-04-2017 11:16PM

I remember reading that base should have known that the chopper had hit water as some alarm should have went off but didn't, anymore about that?

JimWinters · 04-04-2017 11:20PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

I believe that they're manually activated to prevent accidental inflation given the nature of the job and frequent contact with water.

Thank Coil, it's a shame as they would have been located long ago if they'd inflated.

It seems much of the equipment requires manual activation and doesn't take into account the fact tha crew may not be conscious when they enter the water?

faoiarvok · 04-04-2017 11:41PM

iguot wrote: »

I remember reading that base should have known that the chopper had hit water as some alarm should have went off but didn't, anymore about that?

According to a post on another aviation forum, the aircraft was fitted with an automatically deployable emergency locator transmitter (ADELT), mounted on the tail boom.

This part of the wreckage was found on Blackrock. I don't know whether this ADELT was configured to deploy on immersion, impact, or both. If designed to deploy on immersion, it obviously would not have triggered with that part of the wreckage being on land. If triggered by impact, I suppose it's possible that catastrophic damage occurring quickly enough could sever the connections between the ADELT and the relevant sensors before it was triggered.

Posters on that forum also referred to other accidents where such devices had failed to deploy/transmit.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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