Can a civil servant maintain there existing salary if moving into a lower paid role?

CaptainAhab · 01-04-2017 01:33PM #1

Hi,

I am an established civil servant and considering taking up a position with a different department. This new position has a salary scale significantly lower than my current one and I wondered am I entitled to keep my existing salary if I take up the position?

I rang Public Jobs to seek clarity and have had a look online but can't seem to find any policy to confirm if I can or cannot. Would anybody out there be able to offer any clarity on this?

Thanks

JD1763 · 01-04-2017 02:18PM

My understanding is that you will move down to the lower grade on the lower scale. I knew someone who took HEO but moved back to EO and had to revert to the EO salary. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong but to my knowledge that's how it works.

doc22 · 01-04-2017 02:27PM

JD1763 wrote: »

My understanding is that you will move down to the lower grade on the lower scale. I knew someone who took HEO but moved back to EO and had to revert to the EO salary. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong but to my knowledge that's how it works.

Back to the bottom of scale?

titan18 · 01-04-2017 02:31PM

Why would you be allowed keep your existing salary on a lower scale job? Be sort of ridiculous if you could

CaptainAhab · 01-04-2017 02:32PM

Damn I was hoping that wasn't the case. In all applications on Public Jobs it states "Different pay and conditions may apply if immediately prior to appointment the appointee is a serving Civil or Public Servant". I think I will give Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform a call.

MarkR · 01-04-2017 02:32PM

titan18 wrote: »

Why would you be allowed keep your existing salary on a lower scale job? Be sort of ridiculous if you could

Could be April fool's joke?

fiachr_a · 01-04-2017 02:36PM

Why would you do this (move to a lower grade)? Is it for a transfer to a new region?

Holysock · 01-04-2017 02:43PM

fiachr_a wrote: »

Why would you do this (move to a lower grade)? Is it for a transfer to a new region?

The OP didn't say they were necessarily moving to a lower grade but to a lower salary scale. It wouldn't be an unreasonable question say, for example, a HEO switching to AO. Both are an equivalent grade, but the scale for HEO starts around €45K and AO about €30K and they level off at the same amount

Is it a lower grade in this case?

MarkR · 01-04-2017 02:48PM

Logically speaking, I can't see how you would get the same rate transferred over. Imagine someonein the new department, same title, same number of years in service, and you getting more?

Donutz · 01-04-2017 02:59PM

MarkR wrote:

Logically speaking, I can't see how you would get the same rate transferred over. Imagine someoneâ€‹in the new department, same title, same number of years in service, and you getting more?

A long time ago in my workplace they abolished a grade. The few staff that were at that grade were moved to a lower paid grade but still kept their higher rate of pay.

These workers weren't given a choice so I suppose the company didn't have a choice but to keep them on the higher pay scale, but it's just an example of how some people working at the same grade could have different pay scales.

JD1763 · 01-04-2017 03:06PM

If there are different terms and conditions for a serving civil servant you should speak with HR to see what would apply to you.

CaptainAhab · 01-04-2017 03:07PM

As I can see from the replys, there are precedents where this has occurred and colleagues have also told me it wouldn't be unusual to move into the new role and your salary would be carried over onto the relevant salary point of the new role.

notharrypotter · 01-04-2017 04:31PM

Donutz wrote: »

A long time ago in my workplace they abolished a grade. The few staff that were at that grade were moved to a lower paid grade but still kept their higher rate of pay
.

This group would be "red circled".
This would mean that their original role was gone.
They are now "regraded" to a lesser role but their terms and conditions remain unchanged.
AND more importantly from the employer's perspective no other person in that role can claim parity with them.

Not the same as the OP who appears to be voluntary moving to a new department.

jimd2 · 02-04-2017 06:13AM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

As I can see from the replys, there are precedents where this has occurred and colleagues have also told me it wouldn't be unusual to move into the new role and your salary would be carried over onto the relevant salary point of the new role.

But why move to an obviously lesser role? Is it a location thing?

CaptainAhab · 02-04-2017 07:33AM

Its a location thing and also a career thing

sword1 · 02-04-2017 07:41AM

Can't see how it would not be open to abuse. Enda kenny could decide he wants to be close to home and move back to the local council on the same money

Avatar MIA · 02-04-2017 07:58AM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

"Different pay and conditions may apply if immediately prior to appointment the appointee is a serving Civil or Public Servant".

Doesn't that relate to whether you join at the discounted rate or not.

For example people joining for the Civil Service for the first time joined at a 10% reduced salary, taking Haddington road or similar into account. But, if you were already in the CS you stayed on the old (pre reduced) rates.

But, you still joined on the same scale (just different payments on that scale).

I don't see how jumping down a level and maintaining the same pay would be possible. It would be a nice trick (less responsibility) if you could.

shar01 · 02-04-2017 08:01AM

The simple answer OP is no.

If you are applying for a different position of your own volition, then you are appointed to the advertised salary scale.

Bear in mind also that your pension benefits will be affected.

jimd2 · 02-04-2017 09:12AM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

Its a location thing and also a career thing

You might still consider it but you could hardly justify keeping your rate considering you will be doing (on paper anyway) a lesser job and the move will have been insigated by yourself. Bear in mind that your current department will have to replace yo at your current salary so the total cost to the state would increase.

If you were moved not at your own request it would be a different matter.

Cakerbaker · 02-04-2017 09:20AM

Circular 34/1977 may be relevant. Generally if moving grades within the civil service you don't drop salary. May be different if your coming into the civil service from the public sector. I was EO for a number of years and was then successful in the open AO competition. The starting AO salary was significantly lower than my EO salary at that time. I moved on my existing salary and kept all my existing benefits as a serving civil servant.

CaptainAhab · 02-04-2017 10:23AM

The thing is lets say the salary scale for both positions begins at 25k. In my current job I am 5 years into the scale and now on 30k. The question is, if I move to the other job would I need to go back at 25k or can I come in on my current scale point of 30k?

Cakerbaker · 02-04-2017 10:27AM

EO and AO starting salaries are pretty much the same and I moved on my existing EO salary. I didn't have to go back to €29,000 (it's somewhere around that I think). IT basically meant I was earning approx. 40% more than the other AOs who started with me who had come from outside the civil service.

CaptainAhab · 02-04-2017 10:29AM

Thanks Cakerbaker - That is what I had been told by others too.

I'm gonna contact personnel for confirmation however.

Cakerbaker · 02-04-2017 10:31AM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

Thanks Cakerbaker - That is what I had been told by others too.

I'm gonna contact personnel for confirmation however.

I had no trouble. When HR from my new department contacted me they were automatically working on the basis I'd be moving on my existing salary.

PMBC · 02-04-2017 10:38AM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

Damn I was hoping that wasn't the case. In all applications on Public Jobs it states "Different pay and conditions may apply if immediately prior to appointment the appointee is a serving Civil or Public Servant". I think I will give Dept of Public Expenditure and Reform a call.

I think it applies to
New lower entry level salaries for 'new' public servants and possibly a change in PRSI

noodler · 02-04-2017 08:45PM

Same point in the scale if it exists or similar.

bobbysands81 · 02-04-2017 09:15PM

CaptainAhab wrote: »

Thanks Cakerbaker - That is what I had been told by others too.

I'm gonna contact personnel for confirmation however.

Are you changing grades or staying in the same grade?

billyhead · 27-06-2022 07:51PM

Does anyone know if you move to a lower grade through an open competition in the Civil Service you would be on a different or higher starting scale in this role if your salary in your current grade is higher than the maximum salary in the new lower grade?

Vologda69 · 27-06-2022 11:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259098#Comment_119259098

If they are not analagous (similar) grades e.g. EO/Staff officer/Grade V, salary will not transfer. However they may grant increments on scale for years of service. Local HR will always make the decision.

dat6 · 28-06-2022 05:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119259930#Comment_119259930

Depends, nothing to do with analagous grades necessarily

@billyhead Take a read of this circular

https://www.gov.ie/en/circular/57443f-082019-starting-pay-on-promotion/

Vologda69 · 28-06-2022 07:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119260098#Comment_119260098

That refers to promotion and similar grades, not dropping grades. I came from larger salary in public service. My new civil service department wudnt match the higher salary as the grades were not like for like. They instead gave me six increments for service years. It will largely come down to local HR

Can a civil servant maintain there existing salary if moving into a lower paid role?

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