Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Tenger · 28-03-2017 02:16PM

I dont believe that the cost issue was dealt with as a moderator. (non bold text) Irish Steve did response with a comment along the lines of "we will all ultimately be paying for it".
As you point out yourself the AAIU is funded through tax payer revenue. I think the issue is that at the moment perhaps we do not need to know the actual cost.

And your point on the fishing community giving assistance and subsequent loss of revenue (as opposed to the voluntary work in free time of others) is a good point to remember.

adam88 · 28-03-2017 02:22PM

do the insurers pay anything in these instances. I'd have thought they'd be picking up the bill to the limits on the insurance policies. It's not exactly an unforseaable situation that an aircraft may crash. I know aviation insurance is big big business and Ireland is a major player in such

I'm not trying to be insensitive here either, just a practice question

skallywag · 28-03-2017 03:00PM

CHC themselves will certainly have insurance against such a loss.

28-03-2017 03:02PM

An addition question is how does the CHC Ireland contract handle the loss of an aircraft?

A quick google shows CHC are not in great financial shape.

nuac · 28-03-2017 03:43PM

Guys

There are still two bodies to be found and waked

That and support for the bereaved families are the priorities now.

Time enough later for other issues.

Kerrydude1981 · 28-03-2017 04:24PM

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/846741689951830016

Tabnabs · 28-03-2017 04:25PM

Are we allowed to talk about the lack of SAR coverage in the east of the country due to the lack of helicopter coverage? I know of one specific case recently where a casualty had to be transferred the long way instead of being airlifted straight to hospital. That seems a rather troubling issue.

ted1 · 28-03-2017 04:32PM

Tabnabs wrote: »

Are we allowed to talk about the lack of SAR coverage in the east of the country due to the lack of helicopter coverage? I know of one specific case recently where a casualty had to be transferred the long way instead of being airlifted straight to hospital. That seems a rather troubling issue.

Is that an issue with lack of Aer ambulance? Was it on the coast or land ?

Tabnabs · 28-03-2017 04:33PM

On the coast.

Tenger · 28-03-2017 05:08PM

CHC have a reserve S92 which can take the place of the lost chopper. Therefore no loss of SAR cover.
The air ambulance situation may not have been related. Over the years there have been multiple incidents like that where ground transport was used due to lack of /unavailability of air transport.

Tenger · 28-03-2017 05:10PM

At this point we really dont care about your opinion of the thread. We are very much aware that some of you are not happy. We are also aware of some other issue in the background that are not public (and will probably not be made public to explain the actions of the moderation team)
The mods have made decisions which are not popular and have put them in a position where they have received some rather blunt PMs and posts about their personalities, IQ, decision making abilities and childhood schooling. So dont for one minute think we are making these decisions for popular thumbs ups or our own amusement.
We recognise that in the absence of update on the search/recovery operation we feel the need to go a little off topic. But dont lose sight of the fact that the search for 2 men is still onging. That should be the focus of the thread.

If ye dont like it then go elsewhere. Its a free internet on other sites. We don't have any influence or control over any other websites.
Ye have had enough warnings about arguing inthread with very clearly stated Mod and Admin instructions.
As stated previously any infractions have been for breach of rules of board.ie. Such as ignoring mod instructions, arguing with a mod in thread, attacking another poster and/or trolling

coillsaille · 28-03-2017 05:16PM

nuac wrote: »

Reply

Just asking for some respect for the dead and for those recently bereaved in this tragedy

To be fair, I would take it for granted that everybody on this thread has enormous respect for the dead in this tragedy and overwhelming sympathy for the bereaved.

But it is an aviation forum and people would like to discuss possible causes from an aviation view point. Other people would like to discuss the logistics and mechanics of the splendid recovery operation, including cost and financing.

However when those people attempt to ask such questions, even while giving due deference to the tragic nature of the situation, they get shot down as being callous or disrespectful or they get told to shut up and leave it to those involved in the recovery efforts.

CardinalJ · 28-03-2017 05:50PM

People are asking questions based on an inquisitive nature, not a lack of respect, empathy, sadness or basic human emotions.

"Who is paying for this rescue operation?" can be interpreted as
1) "I dont want to see taxpayers money wasted on a lost cause!" or
2) "Its great to see so many resources being put into recovering people who would put it all on the line for us".

Appreciate this is an emotive thread but bar one or two obvious trolls I think people can be given the benefit of the doubt and are going down the lines of option 2.

Thats just my thoughts.

weisses · 28-03-2017 05:54PM

nuac wrote: »

Reply

Just asking for some respect for the dead and for those recently bereaved in this tragedy

I wasn't aware a healthy adult discussion about various aspects of this tragedy is somehow disrespectful ...

Macca07 · 28-03-2017 05:56PM

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/846748873926328320

So does anyone know what exactly is involved in a partial lift? Is it just enough to raise off the sea floor, or do they want to bring it to the surface?

Cloudio9 · 28-03-2017 06:05PM

Macca07 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/846748873926328320

So does anyone know what exactly is involved in a partial lift? Is it just enough to raise off the sea floor, or do they want to bring it to the surface?

I believe the intention is not to bring it to the surface, but enough to allow divers to check the underside of the helicopter.

uck51js9zml2yt · 28-03-2017 06:11PM

<SNIP>

If it was on of your family you wouldn't care about the cost of recovery.
There are important things in life and for now, cost isn't one of them.

scuby · 28-03-2017 06:15PM

Tabnabs wrote:

Are we allowed to talk about the lack of SAR coverage in the east of the country due to the lack of helicopter coverage? I know of one specific case recently where a casualty had to be transferred the long way instead of being airlifted straight to hospital. That seems a rather troubling issue.

As far as I know (open to correction) the helicopter will not always complete a transfer direct to hospital. It really depends on the specific situation and medical urgency.
Mountain rescue often complete rescues with calling in a helicopter. With R117 based in Waterford and R116 (rip) in Dublin, there would be sufficient cover.
Hard to tell in absence of additional info

TomOnBoard · 28-03-2017 06:39PM

Cloudio9 wrote: »

I believe the intention is not to bring it to the surface, but enough to allow divers to check the underside of the helicopter.

That's how I understood the strategy also. Although, I would be very leery of allowing divers to search beneath a partially lifted hunk of wreckage, unless it was lifted just enough for it to be moved a bit away from its current location so that divers could explore the area that would then be revealed. If not moved away, then it's underside is more of a job for the ROV in my view.

I read a report elsewhere that flotation of wreckage that is in difficult terrain for recovery by surface vessels has previously been done using these open flotation bags, and the wreckage moved just above the bottom to a place where a surface vessel coul safely access it. In the context of The environment that has been described around the island, all such approaches make sense to me.

adam88 · 28-03-2017 07:12PM

Valentina Savory Pacemaker wrote: »

<SNIP>

If it was on of your family you wouldn't care about the cost of recovery.
There are important things in life and for now, cost isn't one of them.

I'm putting my neck on the line here but rest assured financials are going on behind the scene. There's a pen pusher someplace keeping track of the expenses somewhere or other. Be it wages, fuel, etc etc. None of the organisations involved have a bottomless pit of resources.

It's totally warranted that the search is continued, I'm not disputing that I'm just having my practical cap on.

TomOnBoard · 28-03-2017 08:03PM

I see that the reporter providing RTE coverage in Blacksod has tweete that the fuselage lift operation has been called off for the day due to the effect of Spring tide...
https://mobile.twitter.com/patmcgrath/status/846790689153265665

Coil Kilcrea · 28-03-2017 08:03PM

adam88 wrote: »

I'm putting my neck on the line here but rest assured financials are going on behind the scene. There's a pen pusher someplace keeping track of the expenses somewhere or other. Be it wages, fuel, etc etc. None of the organisations involved have a bottomless pit of resources.

It's totally warranted that the search is continued, I'm not disputing that I'm just having my practical cap on.

And I would hope that one question being asked behind the scenes is how we the public can help through contributing to a fund to keep the recovery efforts fuelled and show our immense support and gratitude to all involved.

TomOnBoard · 28-03-2017 08:15PM

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

And I would hope that one question being asked behind the scenes is how we the public can help through contributing to a fund to keep the recovery efforts fuelled and show our immense support and gratitude to all involved.

We, the public are are contributing to the fund for the financing of CG, Navy, Garda operations every time we pay our taxes.

However, RNLI operations are different if I recall, as that organisation relies on donations. Hopefully, we will all feel a bit more generous next time the voluntary agencies such as RNLI seek our help.

https://rnli.org/support-us/how-your-support-helps/the-difference-you-make

Bazzy · 28-03-2017 08:20PM

It was on the six o clock news

Basically they have attached a large ballon like object for all the world to the hull and are very slowly filling it with air.

This is being monitored by Holland1 underwater machine and when they are happy it is stable to be looked at they will send in dive teams,

I have zero experience in diving but I would imagine they wont nip down and go straight under it i'm sure they have a much better plan

I just hope the two missing can be found

Atlantic Dawn · 28-03-2017 09:00PM

adam88 wrote: »

I'm putting my neck on the line here but rest assured financials are going on behind the scene. There's a pen pusher someplace keeping track of the expenses somewhere or other. Be it wages, fuel, etc etc. None of the organisations involved have a bottomless pit of resources.

It's totally warranted that the search is continued, I'm not disputing that I'm just having my practical cap on.

The experience gained by those involved in this recovery work is invaluable from a training point of view and the agencies involved will be sure to use it in the future, the cost of it for this reason can't be seen as a plain simple expense.

Steve · 28-03-2017 09:22PM

Folks, I'm deleting posts, please keep on topic.
Discussing any mod actions or other interesting places on the internet cannot be done on-thread.

Thanks.

coillsaille · 28-03-2017 09:44PM

Valentina Savory Pacemaker wrote: »

<SNIP>

If it was on of your family you wouldn't care about the cost of recovery.
There are important things in life and for now, cost isn't one of them.

Posters brought up cost as a valid question. The recovery operation is a magnificent display of all that is good about Ireland, from the professionalism and expertise exhibited by our various agencies to the genorisity of our communities in times of need.

Nobody, including those who asked about it, ever suggested the cost of recovery might be an issue. But people are pefectly entitled to be curious about how much such an impressive operation might cost and how it's financed.

Gaoth Laidir · 28-03-2017 09:59PM

This Northern Lighthouse Board guidance document below states these as the hazards and contingencies for landing at Blackrock. Quite a challenge at the best of times.

Note: I am not implying that R116 was trying to land there.

http://nlb.g2b.info/docs/GLA_Helicopter_Services_2015_-_CIL_Landing_Site_Register.pdf

1. The helipad is perched on top of the Black Rock 300 feet above sea level. The cliffs drop away very sharply in the operational sector from west through north to the southeast. Take offs and landings must be carried out in this sector only. The rocky outcrop just southwest of the helipad causes turbulence, which can be severe when the wind is strong from the south and southwest. Wind strength and direction may dictate a requirement to use an exposure of up to 9 second’s.

2. On occasions when the rock is unmanned pilots are to call Blacksod on VHF immediately before and after landing and before taking off from Black Rock and when safely airborne after take off. When there is an attendant on the rock he is to observe all take offs and landings and is to initiate emergency action by means of either VHF or MB radio in the event of a forced landing occurring.

3. The aircraft must be fitted, and equipped with 406 MHz capable ELT.
NOTE; PC2 is not achievable. It will be necessary to use up to 9 seconds
Exposure at this site.

4. Safety risk: XXX

ectoraige · 28-03-2017 10:12PM

What is meant by 9 second exposure in this context?

elastico · 28-03-2017 10:31PM

Valentina Savory Pacemaker wrote: »

<SNIP>

If it was on of your family you wouldn't care about the cost of recovery.
There are important things in life and for now, cost isn't one of them.

Reality needs to return at some stage though. They can't pour money into it indefinitely.

The money poured into this means the money for something else, maybe just as noble a cause, may be pulled.

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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