Bus Eireann

Nomis21 · 26-03-2017 09:17PM

Private operators will operate loss making routes if they are paid to run them. Same as BE is paid right now, but the private operators will do it for less money

end of the road · 26-03-2017 09:24PM

PeadarCo wrote: »

You do realise currently bus Eireann are making a profit on PSO routes, there losses are from expressway. It seems when bus Eireann go into competition against private companies can provide a better service and or at a lower cost. Since we know pso routes are profitable for bus Eireann its highly likely that given a competitive tender more bus services could be supplied with private companies for the same amount of money.

Great for everyone more services and more jobs. The only people who lose are the minority of drivers employed by bus Eireann. This is the problem with modern unions all talk about solidarity with workers but in practice its empty words. The current unions are protecting a small cohort of people at the expense of the majority of drivers within the industry.

only the same level of service can and will be provided for the same amount of money. tendering will only be a like for like replacement. competitive tendering is only competitive for private businesses, but uncompetitive for the state as we can witness from countries like britain who do it large scale. that is why we must not make the same mistake. we must leave public services in public hands to keep costs low.

Nomis21 wrote: »

Private operators will operate loss making routes if they are paid to run them. Same as BE is paid right now, but the private operators will do it for less money

unfortunately the evidence from other countries seems to show the opposite. all though they don't have a state operator so have to rely only on private operation to provide services.

devnull · 26-03-2017 09:29PM

end of the road wrote: »

only the same level of service can and will be provided for the same amount of money. tendering will only be a like for like replacement. competitive tendering is only competitive for private businesses, but uncompetitive for the state as we can witness from countries like britain who do it large scale. that is why we must not make the same mistake. we must leave public services in public hands to keep costs low.

unfortunately the evidence from other countries seems to show the opposite. all though they don't have a state operator so have to rely only on private operation to provide services.

If that is the case then why are the unions so against tendering and the drivers the same? If the case was that private operators could do it no easier and BE was a great example of a well run operation, they would win the tender and no privates would be winning them because the privates couldn't be any cheaper and they have nothing to worry about it.

By the way, in the UK PSO routes in cities are the exception, the overwhelming majority of routes are commercially run with a small number of tendered routes to fill in the gaps, after the commercial market has decided they are not viable, in Ireland we decide that all city routes are nonviable without even giving someone the chance to run them commercially

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-03-2017 09:35PM

devnull wrote: »

People keep making the same points, I keep arguing the same in response to them, if you keep asking the same questions, don't be surprised if you keep getting the same answers to them on boards, it would be nice to have a discussion with them about things.

Had a feeling you wwere goign to say that, but clearly the "romantic" angle was a bit lazy, not to mention arrogant.

In any case, it's because you don't actually read the questions (which esesentially was: why would a for-pofit company run a non-profit route). I actually stopped converaing with you becaue of this.

dfx- · 26-03-2017 09:35PM

Karsini wrote: »

If the NTA pays them to run the routes they will.

If the NTA pays them enough for them to not incur losses or cover suddenly increased costs, they will.

26-03-2017 09:40PM

dfx- wrote: »

If the NTA pays them enough for them to not incur losses or cover suddenly increased costs, they will.

As mentioned above, privates could do it for less as they don't have a ridiculous wage bill to cover.

I really don't get the love for Bus Eireann from some, it's a company operated for the benefit of its staff rather than the public, who it is supposed to serve.

devnull · 26-03-2017 09:41PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Had a feeling you wwere goign to say that, but clearly the "romantic" angle was a bit lazy, not to mention arrogant.

You can think what you want, it's a free country, at the end of the day I think the same about other posters, but I don't need to point it out every 5 minutes.

In any case, it's because you don't actually read the questions (which esesentially was: why would a for-pofit company run a non-profit route). I actually stopped converaing with you becaue of this.

Bus Eireann operates unprofitable routes because it is paid to do so and given free vehicles to do so, Privates are not given free vehicles or paid to do so, that is the reason it doesn't happen right now, that is what I was trying to say and considering I posted something similar that got a huge number of thanks on two occasions, it appears other people can understand it.

If that changes so they allow private companies to bid for routes rather than handing them out to Bus Eireann without even giving someone else the chance. In any case all new contracts are based on a fixed fee, where the operator says how much it can run the service for, the fare revenue goes to the NTA.

dfx- wrote: »

If the NTA pays them enough for them to not incur losses or cover suddenly increased costs, they will.

I would say that is not hard considering the fact that BE is as inefficient as it is what with drivers earning up to 30k in overtime because of the fact that the rotas are outdated and are not making best use of resources, drivers are only driving for half of the day and refusing to use fuel saving modes on their vehicles because they see it as nannying despite the fact it's been normal in the bus and truck industry in the whole of Europe for many years.

quadrifoglio verde · 26-03-2017 09:42PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Had a feeling you wwere goign to say that, but clearly the "romantic" angle was a bit lazy, not to mention arrogant.

In any case, it's because you don't actually read the questions (which esesentially was: why would a for-pofit company run a non-profit route). I actually stopped converaing with you becaue of this.

The nta pays bus eireann a sum of money plus free buses to run the non profitable route so that it is now profitable.
Without the money from the nta to make the route profitable, bus eireann wouldn't run it either.

Tendering allows the company that can do it for best value to the tax payer to run the route.
Let's say BE say they can do it for 100K. However mr private company with lower operating costs says he can do it for 80K. Well then you give it to Mr private company.

Bus eireann do not run non profitable routes at a loss. They get paid handsomely to do so.

PeadarCo · 26-03-2017 09:45PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

In any case, I actually stopped becaue you weren't asnwering ANY of the questions I asked, which essentially was: why would a for-profit organisation run a non-profit route?

Because they are paid to do so. A private company will only bid for a tender at a price they feel they can a profit on. For PSO routes it doesn't actually matter how un/profitable a route is on fare paying passenger. What matters is the fee a company gets. It's the same for bus Eireann or a private company.

Currently bus Eireann are profitable on PSO routes. Their losses relate to commercial routes where they have competition. Based on that fact if their was a competitive tender process for PSO you'd imagine the same services could be provided cheaper with private companies or more could be provided with the same money.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-03-2017 09:58PM

devnull wrote: »

You can think what you want, it's a free country, at the end of the day I think the same about other posters, but I don't need to point it out every 5 minutes.

Em... are you SURE you're reading what I'm actually writing...?

Edit - never mind: dragging this off topic as it is. My question was answered by a different poster who actually bothered to read it.

devnull · 26-03-2017 09:59PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Em... are you SURE you're reading what I'm actually writing...?

I have answered it, other people have answered it, I'm sorry if you don't like the answers.

BuilderPlumber · 26-03-2017 10:25PM

For the sake of the public, this abhorrent and blatant act by NBRU needs to be ended one way or another tomorrow. No excuses. By right, it should have been halted one way or another Friday or over the weekend. But tomorrow is Monday, the beginning of a new working and school/college week. Shane Ross needs to have this thing ended tomorrow. Anything else is unacceptable. NBRU need to be made an example of and punished for what they are doing. Their actions are that of a dictatorship, sociopath, etc. and their mindset is similar to terrorists. They have NOT done their cause any good and their current leadership should be sacked. It is definitely time for Shane Ross to intervene in some capacity on behalf of the Irish people. This drivel needs to end and end soon. BE and NBRU should hang their heads in shame that they have done this to the Irish people and do not care. NBRU have acted in a way that shows blatant disregard for the people and I consider them criminals. Whoever made this poor decision to call this poorly organised and poorly thought out strike should be made accountable for his actions and punished by the criminal courts.

mugsymugsy · 26-03-2017 10:31PM

No let the strike continue. Let the union's bring down the company and then the NTA tender the PSO routes.

If the state / public gives in then the union's will continue to have a field day.

Anyone who thinks that the union is doing this for the benefit of the public / greater good then they are mistaken.

devnull · 26-03-2017 10:32PM

What happened with GoBE and the way it was described on RTE was laughable and played down as issues at their base stopping the services running, the fact they have not reported what happened and copped out of it with that does not surprise me since the coverage has been pretty one sided I felt so far with Ingrid clearly not impartial, but I guess it is to be expected from one public organisation to another.

The next key dates in this dispute are on Monday where the Bus Eireann board is going to meet to hear what is going to happen next in their plans and there is likely to be another letter issued to the unions and some more reaction from them no doubt to that and I expect them to step up the rhetoric.

Then Wednesday Shane Ross is going to face the transport committee, where he is likely to be in for a bit of a bruising I will suspect, no doubt Ms Munster will argue things and someone on here will post whatever Sinn Fein and the Socialist Workers Party/People Before Profit/Anti Austerity Alliance or whatever they are called this week as fact.

quadrifoglio verde · 26-03-2017 11:31PM

I think Ross has played a stellar job on this one so far.
He knows that bus eireann are more than profitable on their subsidised routes. He also knows that there is alternatives to them on the commercial routes. Alternatives that in most cases provide a far better service.
Instead of doing what previous ministers would have done in the past and given them his cheque book, he is letting them cut their own cloth.

At the end of the day, the management and drivers of bus eireann want Ross to do the same thing. Open his chequebook and restrict the private operator. Then in their eyes, all the problems will disappear

TheQuietFella · 26-03-2017 11:44PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Private operators will operate loss making routes if they are paid to run them. Same as BE is paid right now, but the private operators will do it for less money

I wonder what private operators are paying their drivers and the conditions they are working under? I'm hearing that a P.O. is looking to draft in 50 foreign drivers (Portuguese) as they can't recruit the drivers here. I wonder why?

Dublin Coach do not move their buses unless it is economically viable for them to do so. They'll wait for another to pass and they'll transfer passengers over.
Some shambles of a service!

devnull · 26-03-2017 11:46PM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Dublin Coach do not move their buses unless it is economically viable for them to do so. They'll wait for another to pass and they'll transfer passengers over. Some shambles of a service!

Can you explain a little more?

Vic_08 · 27-03-2017 12:46AM

KC161 wrote: »

Here is the contrast of how private operators pay.

One i worked for paid €140 per (9 hour) day.

That is very similar to Bus Eireann pay rates at the top of the pay scale, new entrants would be on less than that.

A single figure cannot be given as there are a number of different payments that depend on individual circumstance as well as the number of Sundays worked.

KC161 wrote: »

Another I was interviewed for paid €115 per (11 hour) day.

Less than 22k a year for a 40h week.

Sure that sort of minimum wage rate ****e is what most on here are cheerleading for, as long as it does not apply to them of course.

27-03-2017 01:04AM

So be it. It's unskilled work. I have 15 years experience in IT, yet there's Bus Eireann drivers on a higher wage than me. How does that make any sense?

Union_Rep · 27-03-2017 01:10AM

Karsini - you should join a union, you are underpaid, we are not overpaid.

Besides, driving a bus needs skills as well, IT people are not better than bus drivers even if they think they are, bu drivers have responsibilities.

Vic_08 · 27-03-2017 01:23AM

Karsini wrote: »

So be it. It's unskilled work. I have 15 years experience in IT, yet there's Bus Eireann drivers on a higher wage than me. How does that make any sense?

Typical Irish attitude. Your mediocre wages are somehow more acceptable as long as those you consider beneath you are getting paid less.

Perhaps you should tell your boss that you are going to quit and go drive a bus unless you get paid what you are worth.

joeysoap · 27-03-2017 01:28AM

On any journey I have undertaken in the past 5 years - mostly to Galway via the N52 or Limerick via the N52 or the M1/M7 motorway - I have seen good driving, bad driving, appalling driving and downright dangerous driving. I have no doubt that most roads are the same. I don't envy bus drivers, or anyone who drives for a living. So when a desk jockey complains about a driver earning more than he/she earns sitting at a desk, I think no comparison, you are probably sitting in an air conditioned office, no real pressure i.e. nobody is going to get hurt if you make a mistake and you don't have to drive for a living on wet, icy, narrow, busy, congested, bumpy etc etc roads every day. Why do people in IT think they should earn more than others.? Same attitude as bankers and some civil servants. I am not a bus driver. (quite the opposite)

Glenster · 27-03-2017 01:28AM

Vic_08 wrote: »

Typical Irish attitude. Your mediocre wages are somehow more acceptable as long as those you consider beneath you are getting paid less.

Perhaps you should tell your boss that you are going to quit and go drive a bus unless you get paid what you are worth.

If they were being paid from a private company no-one would care.

Some of the money I earn every month is taken out of my paycheck and given to them, and we dont think they deserve it.

Thats why its an issue.

end of the road · 27-03-2017 03:19AM

mugsymugsy wrote: »

No let the strike continue. Let the union's bring down the company and then the NTA tender the PSO routes.

not cost effective and the only thing to be gained would be increased subsidy and fares to insure a profit can be made from the most loss making of routes.

mugsymugsy wrote: »

If the state / public gives in then the union's will continue to have a field day.

there is nothing to give in to.

mugsymugsy wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that the union is doing this for the benefit of the public / greater good then they are mistaken.

the union's job is to look after their member's interests, as that is what they are paid to do. why would anyone be thinking they are looking out for the public? a good union does whatever it needs to do to do the job they get paid by the members to do, and anyone thinking that people think they are looking out for the public when clearly nobody thinks they do are deluded.

end of the road · 27-03-2017 03:25AM

devnull wrote: »

If that is the case then why are the unions so against tendering and the drivers the same? If the case was that private operators could do it no easier and BE was a great example of a well run operation, they would win the tender and no privates would be winning them because the privates couldn't be any cheaper and they have nothing to worry about it.

By the way, in the UK PSO routes in cities are the exception, the overwhelming majority of routes are commercially run with a small number of tendered routes to fill in the gaps, after the commercial market has decided they are not viable, in Ireland we decide that all city routes are nonviable without even giving someone the chance to run them commercially

it doesn't matter how much copy and pasting you do or how many times you do it, i have explained where i am coming from in relation to the uk via the fact tendered routes exist there.

Karsini wrote: »

As mentioned above, privates could do it for less as they don't have a ridiculous wage bill to cover.

I really don't get the love for Bus Eireann from some, it's a company operated for the benefit of its staff rather than the public, who it is supposed to serve.

they can't do it for less as they have to make a profit. the wage bill is fine, it's the overtime that is the issue and that is being dealt with.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The nta pays bus eireann a sum of money plus free buses to run the non profitable route so that it is now profitable.
Without the money from the nta to make the route profitable, bus eireann wouldn't run it either.

Tendering allows the company that can do it for best value to the tax payer to run the route.
Let's say BE say they can do it for 100K. However mr private company with lower operating costs says he can do it for 80K. Well then you give it to Mr private company.

Bus eireann do not run non profitable routes at a loss. They get paid handsomely to do so.

tendering of public services isn't about value to the tax payer. it's about driving down terms and conditions, privatizing profit and socialising losses and risk.

Karsini wrote: »

So be it. It's unskilled work. I have 15 years experience in IT, yet there's Bus Eireann drivers on a higher wage than me. How does that make any sense?

not so be it. the bus eireann drivers earned the wage. if you can't get a similar wage that is your fault for not standing up. it's not the job of the bus eireann staff to be dragged down to your wage. the fact you can't get a good wage is not their problem or fault.

scoey · 27-03-2017 04:00AM

Karsini wrote: »

So be it. It's unskilled work. I have 15 years experience in IT, yet there's Bus Eireann drivers on a higher wage than me. How does that make any sense?

This sums up the prevailing opinion and bitter personalities on this site pretty well.

A bus driver provides a more valuable service to society than the majority of IT drones with 15 (wow) years of experience.

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 05:08AM

mugsymugsy wrote: »

No let the strike continue. Let the union's bring down the company and then the NTA tender the PSO routes.

If the state / public gives in then the union's will continue to have a field day.

Anyone who thinks that the union is doing this for the benefit of the public / greater good then they are mistaken.

What CLEARLY needs to be done is the state needs to bring in legislation that bypasses BE and gives us back our bus service by some other provider(s). This should be done TODAY. Let the terrorist-minded NBRU continue their strike in vain. Let's hope NBRU goes out of business too. It should be categorised as a disruptive criminal organisation run by sociopaths who don't care who they hurt. NBRU and BE need to be hurt themselves after doing this awful disservice to the public. They no longer deserve support from the public or the government after this simple as. BE should be left to its own devices, NBRU should be outlawed as a criminal entity charged with state disruption and treason and ordinary BE workers should be allowed to continue their work in whatever replaces it.

BuilderPlumber · 27-03-2017 05:25AM

joeysoap wrote: »

On any journey I have undertaken in the past 5 years - mostly to Galway via the N52 or Limerick via the N52 or the M1/M7 motorway - I have seen good driving, bad driving, appalling driving and downright dangerous driving. I have no doubt that most roads are the same. I don't envy bus drivers, or anyone who drives for a living. So when a desk jockey complains about a driver earning more than he/she earns sitting at a desk, I think no comparison, you are probably sitting in an air conditioned office, no real pressure i.e. nobody is going to get hurt if you make a mistake and you don't have to drive for a living on wet, icy, narrow, busy, congested, bumpy etc etc roads every day. Why do people in IT think they should earn more than others.? Same attitude as bankers and some civil servants. I am not a bus driver. (quite the opposite)

While I oppose the abhorrent tactics of NBRU, I think that bus drivers like all workers deserve their rights and the right to job security. One can support workers but still oppose the tactics of the unions. NBRU's action to close down bus services 100% is a horrid, cruel and selfish act. It turns off 99% of the public and NBRU do not deserve to exist (they are criminals and should be punished like any other criminal that disrupts the state). But workers deserve their rights and the right to job security and decent pay. BE's management are happy to pay themselves a fortune and cut ordinary workers. It is a case of one set of hardliners feeding off of another set of hardliners here and all reasonable and moderate voices are drowned out. If BE goes bust, it will be the ordinary workers who will get hurt most, not the hardliners in the unions or the management who will BOTH still (sadly) have good jobs. These hardliners on both sides should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this thing to happen.

As regards IT people: it is true that a lot of these think they are god's gift to the world. They look down on other workers and in many cases, the work they do is a lot easier than they care to admit! Modern computer applications can do so much at the press of a few switches and it is all not coding from scratch any longer. Bankers the same, cushy jobs for those high up. However, junior IT and bank workers are again treated poorly often.

That brings me back to NBRU. While I 100% support workers' rights, there is ALWAYS a line decent organisations should never cross. It is like I oppose things like the Iraq war but I do not support terrorists who attack innocent people in countries that supported this war. 2 wrongs NEVER make a right. NBRU's strike is a criminal act that shows a heartless, cruel disregard for the public and the tactic is used in much the same manner as terrorists use their acts. There is no way I could support NBRU's TACTICS even if I would support better deals for workers and oppose BE's management practices. Cutbacks to ordinary workers should always be opposed but one should not resort to dirty practices as that does not do anything for any cause only turn people off. There are plenty things NBRU could do to target BE management ONLY and hurt them, while not disrupting the public. Since NBRU decided to hurt the public, they do not deserve respect and deserve to be punished as criminals.

TrustedApple · 27-03-2017 07:07AM

I work in IT and have fairly OK wages as a Sap coder. I do not think i am higher then someone else because I work in IT. I just tell people any it college course is not for everyone and you have to like computers to be able to do well In them.

But with any job you can be trained to do it.

But thanks to. The bus today I can't get to work at all and no taxi will bring me down from my house to my office woop de do. The joys of working 9km from your office.

So I am. Due to start at 8 and I prob won't get in to at at lest 11 and will have to work to 8 this evening all thanks to the bus drivers and taxi drivers.

Just f great.....

CoolHandBandit · 27-03-2017 07:09AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

What CLEARLY needs to be done is the state needs to bring in legislation that bypasses BE and gives us back our bus service by some other provider(s). This should be done TODAY. Let the terrorist-minded NBRU continue their strike in vain. Let's hope NBRU goes out of business too. It should be categorised as a disruptive criminal organisation run by sociopaths who don't care who they hurt. NBRU and BE need to be hurt themselves after doing this awful disservice to the public. They no longer deserve support from the public or the government after this simple as. BE should be left to its own devices, NBRU should be outlawed as a criminal entity charged with state disruption and treason and ordinary BE workers should be allowed to continue their work in whatever replaces it.

:pac:

Bus Eireann

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