Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

robinph · 24-03-2017 04:47PM

Depp wrote: »

look up sharia divorces, this seems to be common practice for men to have several marriages recognised by the mosque but not by british law to be fair.

I'm not denying that they may think they can have multiple wives, they can't except in their imagination or Utah, but they can still think it. What I was pointing out was that Muhammed was being spoken of in the present tense. This is clearly nonsense. Therefore where ever that list was pulled from it is probably just a list of quotes from the equivalent of Leviticus which is the bible section with rules about not marrying your brothers goat unless it's wearing denim and a fur hat or some other daftness.

Have you actually got a list of the rules that one of these Sharia councils follow in the UK, rather than one of daft quotations pulled at random from their book but that nobody actually follows?

24-03-2017 04:50PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Which people are against them? Have you considered researching campaigns against sharia and reading about personal experiences etc? I think the campaign is more or less worldwide so I find it extremely hard to believe that you're genuinely in ignorance.
What do you think people are hinting at?
The worst case is where people are put to death and I've personally said that's not part of sharia law in Britain because sharia is not the law of the land and it wouldn't be tolerated. Having said that there have been honour killings and acid attacks on British women.

Assuming you understand divorce and inheritance outcomes for women can be very different to those who go through the British legal system and that coercive control is exerted over women in some strict families, or at least have some knowledge of sharia (you admit the idea behind it is terrible) then why are you asking for people to convince you of? It's a bit contradictory-almost like saying, the idea is terrible but what's so bad about it?

No, on reflection, nobody's witheld facts, it's yourself and a garda of all people,claiming to need it explained and feigning total ignorance that is suspicious and very hard to take seriously.

I asked for proof, do you have a problem with people needing proof before they believe something?
I stated already I don't not believe they exist, I just wanted it pointed out where the evidence is coming from.
And for the second time, what does my job have to do with anything?

24-03-2017 04:53PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Do you really not know what sharia law is? Aren't you a garda?

Just saw your last comment to Depp. Well now you know a bit about it. Well it'll never (as far as you can tell)become the official law of the land, so that's ok?

A few comments here beggar belief.

A

Christy42 · 24-03-2017 04:55PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Which people are against them? Have you considered researching campaigns against sharia and reading about personal experiences etc? I think the campaign is more or less worldwide so I find it extremely hard to believe that you're genuinely in ignorance.
What do you think people are hinting at?
The worst case is where people are put to death and I've personally said that's not part of sharia law in Britain because sharia is not the law of the land and it wouldn't be tolerated. Having said that there have been honour killings and acid attacks on British women.

Assuming you understand divorce and inheritance outcomes for women can be very different to those who go through the British legal system and that coercive control is exerted over women in some strict families, or at least have some knowledge of sharia (you admit the idea behind it is terrible) then why are you asking for people to convince you of? It's a bit contradictory-almost like saying, the idea is terrible but what's so bad about it?

No, on reflection, nobody's witheld facts, it's yourself and a garda of all people,claiming to need it explained and feigning total ignorance that is suspicious and very hard to take seriously.

Have you considered backing up your arguments? I stayed out of this for a while because I knew about my own ignorance about the Sharia courts in the UK. I just got annoyed at the dancing around actually saying anything about in spite of being asked on multiple occasions. An example argument might be I think x is bad because y. Even if x is easily to Google it helps the argument go along and get your point across. You don't even need all the details. Just something highlight your main point.

The closest I have seen of an explanation was Depp giving some examples of Sharia law (though I assume in a different context as, as you say Sharia law and the rules of these Sharia councils are quite different).

I have absolutely no idea why I of all people would be expexted to be well read on the specifics of Sharia law councils in the UK and how divorce works in them. I have not been involved in such a case before hand. I do intend to Google them after work but for the moment this entire argument is a load of there is a thing which is bad about a thing.

I also don't expect all Garda to know about the details either unless it is an issue over here?

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:59PM

robinph wrote: »

I'm not denying that they may think they can have multiple wives, they can't except in their imagination or Utah, but they can still think it. What I was pointing out was that Muhammed was being spoken of in the present tense. This is clearly nonsense. Therefore where ever that list was pulled from it is probably just a list of quotes from the equivalent of Leviticus which is the bible section with rules about not marrying your brothers goat unless it's wearing denim and a fur hat or some other daftness.

Have you actually got a list of the rules that one of these Sharia councils follow in the UK, rather than one of daft quotations pulled at random from their book but that nobody actually follows?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sharia-law-alive-well-uk-6957168
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols
https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/muslim-vigilantes-jailed-sharia-law-attacks-london
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html

first 5 things that come up on google. have a read through if you wish.

whether these marriages are according to state law or muslim law it doesnt change the fact that these women are still living as wives to these men. and when these women wish to leave these marriages and continue to practice their religion, which is their right, the hoops they are made jump through and the difficulties around custody of the kids due to not being state recognized marriages, which are very well documented, are an absolute joke and its a stain on the society that its allowed to happen

Depp · 24-03-2017 05:03PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea why I of all people would be expexted to be well read on the specifics of Sharia law councils in the UK and how divorce works in them. I have not been involved in such a case before hand. I do intend to Google them after work but for the moment this entire argument is a load of there is a thing which is bad about a thing.

Glad you're taking this approach its a pity more refuse to! As I've said I'm not here to convince anyone, I want people to do their own research and form their own opinions then if they still disagree I am more than happy to debate and talk through it!

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 05:05PM

Depp wrote: »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sharia-law-alive-well-uk-6957168
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols
https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/muslim-vigilantes-jailed-sharia-law-attacks-london
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html

first 5 things that come up on google. have a read through if you wish.

whether these marriages are according to state law or muslim law it doesnt change the fact that these women are still living as wives to these men. and when these women wish to leave these marriages and continue to practice their religion, which is their right, the hoops they are made jump through and the difficulties around custody of the kids due to not being state recognized marriages, which are very well documented, are an absolute joke and its a stain on the society that its allowed to happen

Nobody has stood up to religious dogma more than I have, but I fail to see a solution here if people are voluntary members of a faith.
When they break state laws is the only intervention you can make really.

Unless you have another solution, what is the point of this?

Depp · 24-03-2017 05:09PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has stood up to religious dogma more than I have, but I fail to see a solution here if people are voluntary members of a faith.
When they break state laws is the only intervention you can make really.

Unless you have another solution, what is the point of this?

What I would really like to see is better protection for apostates, people with criticisms of islam and women and children in abusive muslim marriages from the state, and for the left (poor terminology) to stop villifying anyone who speaks out against islam. And ultimately for islam itself to come to a form of reformation and cast out these elements of the faith.

Admittedly I have been known to let my passion get the better of me and go on tangents but this is the core of my views and beliefs

ScumLord · 24-03-2017 05:20PM

I'm sure you can see yourself Depp that these links have issues.

Depp wrote: »

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sharia-law-alive-well-uk-6957168

Sensationalist piece. I don't trust the media. You can go back years and find post of me saying the media is untrustworthy, even before Trump popularised "fake news". I'm not saying it's fake news, just a heavily biased opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols I remember these now. But they were condemned by everyone including Muslims, they seem to basically be young lads being dicks. They're no longer patrolling according to your links and some are in jail.

https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/ Clearly anti Msulim propaganda. I don't want to seem dismissive but I wouldn't consider this a credible source, they have a clear agenda to make Islam look as bad as possible. I know Islam provides the fuel for the fire but sites like these pour petrol on the problem not highlight it for change.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/muslim-vigilantes-jailed-sharia-law-attacks-london This article basically marks the end of these groups does it not? It wouldn't take long for these groups to end up at the receiving end of some big London lads.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html Christian propaganda. This site focuses a lot on how the bible is better than the Koran.

The problem is if you go looking for negative press on any group of people you'll more than likely find plenty. There's no doubt there are bad Muslims, there is no doubt there's a conflict of interest between the secular west and Islam. I just think we need to be careful in demonising all Muslims because they have a crazy religion (I use that phrase lightly for want of a better one, I'm not accusing you of demonising all Muslims, just that it's a side effect of this debate being polarised). The western lifestyle is a great one. These people left their homelands because they knew they'd have a better life. They want that life. It's hard to just abandon the culture you were raised with though. I really think that British Muslims that are born British are for the most part almost as lapse in their faith as British Christians are, and that with time our way of life will moderate them. But if we back them into a corner they'll defend the faith of their ancestors even if they don't really want to.

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 05:20PM

Depp wrote: »

What I would really like to see is better protection for apostates, people with criticisms of islam and women and children in abusive muslim marriages from the state, and for the left (poor terminology) to stop villifying anyone who speaks out against islam. And ultimately for islam itself to come to a form of reformation and cast out these elements of the faith.

Admittedly I have been known to let my passion get the better of me and go on tangents but this is the core of my views and beliefs

The only thing people are being vilified for is generalising.

I still fail to see what your dislike about how a religion functions within the laws of the state has to do with a debate about extremist violence.
I too would like abuses by all religions stop btw. But the sad truth is that until a person seeks to get out of an abusive religion or indeed an abusive marriage or an abusive anything, there is not a lot you can do.

Depp · 24-03-2017 05:32PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure you can see yourself Depp that these links have issues.

Sensationalist piece. I don't trust the media. You can go back years and find post of me saying the media is untrustworthy, even before Trump popularised "fake news". I'm not saying it's fake news, just a heavily biased opinion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols I remember these now. But they were condemned by everyone including Muslims, they seem to basically be young lads being dicks. They're no longer patrolling according to your links and some are in jail.

https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/ Clearly anti Msulim propaganda. I don't want to seem dismissive but I wouldn't consider this a credible source, they have a clear agenda to make Islam look as bad as possible. I know Islam provides the fuel for the fire but sites like these pour petrol on the problem not highlight it for change.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/muslim-vigilantes-jailed-sharia-law-attacks-london This article basically marks the end of these groups does it not? It wouldn't take long for these groups to end up at the receiving end of some big London lads.

http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/uk-sharia-law.html Christian propaganda. This site focuses a lot on how the bible is better than the Koran.

The problem is if you go looking for negative press on any group of people you'll more than likely find plenty. There's no doubt there are bad Muslims, there is no doubt there's a conflict of interest between the secular west and Islam. I just think we need to be careful in demonising all Muslims because they have a crazy religion (I use that phrase lightly for want of a better one, I'm not accusing you of demonising all Muslims, just that it's a side effect of this debate being polarised). The western lifestyle is a great one. These people left their homelands because they knew they'd have a better life. They want that life. It's hard to just abandon the culture you were raised with though. I really think that British Muslims that are born British are for the most part almost as lapse in their faith as British Christians are, and that with time our way of life will moderate them. But if we back them into a corner they'll defend the faith of their ancestors even if they don't really want to.

My apologies you asked for links I just posted the first 5 that came up! agree wholeheartedly about the media and being able to find evidence for anythink if you want it badly enough. From this post I can tell that we are actually in agreement on 95% of issues, I vehemently disagree with admonishing all muslims, I just wish you could criticize islam without people immediately jumping to the conclusion this is what you are doing. (not accusing you of this btw.) In fact the only point you made I disagree with is re integration. I have more of a ''when in rome..'' belief in the issue. If you wish to come here legally and work to improve your life, you are more than welcome to, but if you wish to benefit from our society you need to make an effort to adapt to it. But anyway I'm not here to prove people wrong or make them think what I think, I want to find common ground and build on it. Which is what everyone should be trying to do!

Depp · 24-03-2017 05:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only thing people are being vilified for is generalising.

I still fail to see what your dislike about how a religion functions within the laws of the state has to do with a debate about extremist violence.
I too would like abuses by all religions stop btw. But the sad truth is that until a person seeks to get out of an abusive religion or indeed an abusive marriage or an abusive anything, there is not a lot you can do.

Ill admit this debate has gone severely off topic and I'll take a large portion of the blame! See, at the base of it we mostly agree despite all the back and forth which can be a hard thing to admit at times. However, if a womans options are, continue to practice the faith she has practiced all her life and, leave and rescue herself and her children from an abusive relationship, these two options should not be mutually exclusive, she should be helped by the state and the larger community of moderate muslims to leave her abusive husband but still be allowed to practice islam. I know ive criticized people for doing this but I'll bring up the example of catholicism in ireland, 20-30 years ago a woman divorces her husband she would have been shunned in the church and likely the community as a whole, now however, this is not the case. I just wish for islam to begin a similar evolution and leave behind the outdated doctrine trapping them in the dark ages

ScumLord · 24-03-2017 05:42PM

Depp wrote: »

From this post I can tell that we are actually in agreement on 95% of issues,

I've said it before, if we all sat down together away from the sensationalist media I think we'd find the vast majority of people on both side are moderate, actually want similar things and could come to a resolution. I'm of the opinion that all humans are essentially the same machine it's just the programming that causes issues, but fundamentally most humans want the same thing, a safe place to raise their families. Even hard line Muslims believe their doing the right thing, they're program is just corrupt.

It's hard to not get emotional about these things, especially when we've all become so polarised, and it's hard not to be polarised when the information we depend on is so polarised in the first place. I'm no expert on this, it's easy to be wrong and right at the same time. I believe in people and will defend people. Their religion is a corruption IMO, underneath that corruption is a normal human being.

Which of course is highly offensive to Muslims and every other person of faith.

ilkhanid · 24-03-2017 05:44PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

So there's no reason to push back against any ideology because beliefs are irrelevant. Like he would have ran over multiple people and tried to kill MP's and possibly the prime minister no matter what he believed. Same goes for the Nice attacker, he would have mowed down all those peoples anyway whatever the cause

Unlikely. His anger might have expressed itself in another way,though. Every act of extremist violence is shaped by, and directed by the culture in which we exist. If we live in a culture like, say, modern Britain, with a Christian background, these acts will be rare, and most likely channeled into mundane criminality. If we live in a gun culture like the USA, disaffection with society,anger at our lot in life and alienation with the world around us might find expression in murderous gun rampages.
But for angry young Sunni Muslims there is another outlet:increasing islamic piety and and a descent into Islamist extremism.

Depp wrote: »

What I would really like to see is better protection for apostates, people with criticisms of islam and women and children in abusive muslim marriages from the state, and for the left (poor terminology) to stop villifying anyone who speaks out against islam. And ultimately for islam itself to come to a form of reformation and cast out these elements of the faith.

There is a problem. Every religion is different and evolves in different ways. Islam already had it's reformation (in fact, it has them periodically) and it didn't turn out the way that you or I would like. Christianity's reformation started off brutal and extreme but mellowed with time;forces of reason and moderation eventually gained the upper hand. But this didn't happen with Islam. A large section of Islam, has-so to speak-become stuck in the John Calvin/John Knox/Cotton Mather phase of reformation.

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 05:50PM

Depp wrote: »

Ill admit this debate has gone severely off topic and I'll take a large portion of the blame! See, at the base of it we mostly agree despite all the back and forth which can be a hard thing to admit at times. However, if a womans options are, continue to practice the faith she has practiced all her life and, leave and rescue herself and her children from an abusive relationship, these two options should not be mutually exclusive, she should be helped by the state and the larger community of moderate muslims to leave her abusive husband but still be allowed to practice islam. I know ive criticized people for doing this but I'll bring up the example of catholicism in ireland, 20-30 years ago a woman divorces her husband she would have been shunned in the church and likely the community as a whole, now however, this is not the case. I just wish for islam to begin a similar evolution and leave behind the outdated doctrine trapping them in the dark ages

In there is a solution. Education.
The reason Islam moderates is that it's practitioners can see the benefits when they come to western societies. I guarantee you 37% of Muslims in their home countries do not see that their faith is 'not the only one true faith'. I would say the figure is closer to 0%. Similarly with those who believe there is only one way to interpret their faith.

Widdershins · 24-03-2017 06:00PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure you can see yourself Depp that these links have issues.

https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/ Clearly anti Msulim propaganda. I don't want to seem dismissive but I wouldn't consider this a credible source, they have a clear agenda to make Islam look as bad as possible. I know Islam provides the fuel for the fire but sites like these pour petrol on the problem not highlight it for change.

I don't know the website well but I know a very well known Muslim reformist called Shireen Qudosi, who writes for the Clarion Project. Maybe you can't accept anything not couched in delicate enough terms for your liking. ''Questionable''

Shireen knows what she is talking about.

Actually there's an idea. Maybe those with no idea of what they are discussing would be better off reading books instead of websites? There are plenty of very knowledgable authors with books on the subject.

Depp · 24-03-2017 06:16PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I've said it before, if we all sat down together away from the sensationalist media I think we'd find the vast majority of people on both side are moderate, actually want similar things and could come to a resolution. I'm of the opinion that all humans are essentially the same machine it's just the programming that causes issues, but fundamentally most humans want the same thing, a safe place to raise their families. Even hard line Muslims believe their doing the right thing, they're program is just corrupt.

It's hard to not get emotional about these things, especially when we've all become so polarised, and it's hard not to be polarised when the information we depend on is so polarised in the first place. I'm no expert on this, it's easy to be wrong and right at the same time. I believe in people and will defend people. Their religion is a corruption IMO, underneath that corruption is a normal human being.

Which of course is highly offensive to Muslims and every other person of faith.

this x100. honest discord is the way forward, encoraging different opinions and viewpoints to come out and protecting them from retribution when they do. Not introducing blasphemy laws like we have seen in canada today.

As a ''person of faith'' Im not offended by that tbh, but to be honest I fear im in the minority to have the self awareness to know that while technically I am a catholic, The catholic church in and of itself is not ''god'', just as islam is not in and of itself ''allah.'' In my opinion religion has an overall positive effect on scoiety the problem arises when certain individuals take interpretations of religions and currupt them to suit their evil means.

ScumLord · 24-03-2017 06:20PM

Depp wrote: »

In my opinion religion has an overall positive effect on scoiety the problem arises when certain individuals take interpretations of religions and currupt them to suit their evil means.

It has had positive effects and negative effects, it's another one of those debates where you can be right and wrong at the same time. It's a subject on a scale made large by population and time, that just about anything you say about it could be true.

As long as people stick to its positive aspects it brings positivity into peoples lives, if they focus on the negativity it can lead to horrific scenarios. That's true of just about any religion.

donkeykong5 · 24-03-2017 06:53PM

Widdershins wrote: »

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm sure you can see yourself Depp that these links have issues.

https://clarionproject.org/muslim-gangs-enforcing-sharia-london-streets-4/ Clearly anti Msulim propaganda. I don't want to seem dismissive but I wouldn't consider this a credible source, they have a clear agenda to make Islam look as bad as possible. I know Islam provides the fuel for the fire but sites like these pour petrol on the problem not highlight it for change.

I don't know the website well but I know a very well known Muslim reformist called Shireen Qudosi, who writes for the Clarion Project. Maybe you can't accept anything not couched in delicate enough terms for your liking. ''Questionable'' Shireen knows what she is talking about.

Actually there's an idea. Maybe those with no idea of what they are discussing would be better off reading books instead of websites? There are plenty of very knowledgable authors with books on the subject.

Well I know exactly why I came on to this forum. It was discuss the horrific deaths of individuals by an evil dispicable muselim.

DanielODonnell · 24-03-2017 07:36PM

The media saying how he was such a normal man, another example of how the weirdos of society are not the dangerous ones despite what everyone things. It is the normal ones to watch, that's what i say.

please helpThank YOU · 24-03-2017 07:39PM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

The media saying how he was such a normal man, another example of how the weirdos of society are not the dangerous ones despite what everyone things. It is the normal ones to watch, that's what i say.

Like Ted Bundy.

Help!!!! · 24-03-2017 07:40PM

Did anybody hear of the trouble in Germany on New Years Eve just gone? Women sexually assaulted, fireworks shot at police & you cant blame alcohol. I'm sure someones going to say but we already have a rape culture etc....well if we do why import more??

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749460/germany-new-years-eve-cologne-dortmund-hamburg-augsburg-police-sex-attacks-fireworks

24-03-2017 09:20PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Did anybody hear of the trouble in Germany on New Years Eve just gone? Women sexually assaulted, fireworks shot at police & you cant blame alcohol. I'm sure someones going to say but we already have a rape culture etc....well if we do why import more??

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749460/germany-new-years-eve-cologne-dortmund-hamburg-augsburg-police-sex-attacks-fireworks

This is bloody disgusting. It's not good enough anymore. Something needs to be done about this....

RIP to all those innocent people killed in the UK. Such a tragic loss of life all for the sake of a fundamentalist religious belief, beggars belief that these kinds of people exist in the 21st century.

24-03-2017 09:25PM

DanielODonnell wrote: »

The media saying how he was such a normal man, another example of how the weirdos of society are not the dangerous ones despite what everyone things. It is the normal ones to watch, that's what i say.

That's a funny description by the media of a person who killed, in HORRIFIC circumstances 4 people. I would love to know what sources were saying he was a "lovely" normal man, nothing lovely and normal about terrorists.

ceadaoin. · 24-03-2017 09:40PM

222233 wrote: »

That's a funny description by the media of a person who killed, in HORRIFIC circumstances 4 people. I would love to know what sources were saying he was a "lovely" normal man, nothing lovely and normal about terrorists.

Not to mention his previous crimes. Hardly "normal"

CoolHandBandit · 24-03-2017 09:42PM

222233 wrote: »

That's a funny description by the media of a person who killed, in HORRIFIC circumstances 4 people. I would love to know what sources were saying he was a "lovely" normal man, nothing lovely and normal about terrorists.

The line coming out now and being pressed by Sadiq Khan earlier is he was a "criminal" not a terrorist. Agenda setting at it's worst.

Grayson · 24-03-2017 09:43PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Did anybody hear of the trouble in Germany on New Years Eve just gone? Women sexually assaulted, fireworks shot at police & you cant blame alcohol. I'm sure someones going to say but we already have a rape culture etc....well if we do why import more??

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749460/germany-new-years-eve-cologne-dortmund-hamburg-augsburg-police-sex-attacks-fireworks

Except that didn't happen. It's been proven again and again that it didn't happen. In fact there were less disturbances this year than normal. Most of the fake reports originated with a breitbart article which has been disproven time and time again.

Grayson · 24-03-2017 09:58PM

Icemancometh wrote: »

That's funny, cause previously you accused others of this exact thing.

You went trawling through 9000+ posts I made and that's the best you could find? You need a better hobby.

ceadaoin. · 24-03-2017 10:02PM

Grayson wrote: »

Except that didn't happen. It's been proven again and again that it didn't happen. In fact there were less disturbances this year than normal. Most of the fake reports originated with a breitbart article which has been disproven time and time again.

I don't know about Hamburg but The police in Cologne confirmed that they had to disband a large group of men who arrived at the station apparently to cause the same trouble as last year. The statement said they had "no doubt" about their intentions or something along those lines

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/01/cologne-police-detain-hundreds-north-african-men-new-year/

SILVAMAN · 24-03-2017 10:02PM

Islam is inherently racist. They expect the kaffirs to change to accommodate them. Appalling religion espoused by misogynists.

Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

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