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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,785 ✭✭✭mulbot


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    The moving map can be seen by both pilots and there's also a map display in the cabin. The article posted earlier said the crews also keep a paper map in front of them during flight. Seems hard to imagine they didn't know their location.

    Ah ok, Do they enter their own co-ordinates or is that done by some system?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,860 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    It can be both, if it's a known fix that is stored in the FMS then they would use the name associated with that fix. Alternatively they can create a new fix using lat/long or place/bearing/distance


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    The coordinates for regular use sites (Blacksod, Sligo, Finner camp, The regular use hospitals, Shannon, Dublin and many others ) would be stored in the system, as they are regular use locations that don't move. The Sikorsky also is fitted with an AIS transponder, which is the marine equivalent of TCAS ( Aviation collision and avoidance system, it has that as well), which answer another point that had been raised and was answered today, the Blackrock Lighthouse has an AIS transponder on it, so it would have been visible on their navigation systems from that source, even if it was not on others, which is unlikely.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,824 ✭✭✭Mr Velo


    Both Granuaile and LE Eithne on way back in to Blacksod Bay now again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭Mech1


    Mr Velo wrote: »
    Both Granuaile and LE Eithne on way back in to Blacksod Bay now again.

    Could have been lots of good work done during there time on site today, in prep for first light. Dropping fixed lines on buoys etc.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    The coordinates for regular use sites (Blacksod, Sligo, Finner camp, The regular use hospitals, Shannon, Dublin and many others ) would be stored in the system, as they are regular use locations that don't move.

    you maybe onto some with this though!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭scuby


    They dropped an ROV for a while to do some exploration work


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 842 ✭✭✭cabledude


    The coordinates for regular use sites (Blacksod, Sligo, Finner camp, The regular use hospitals, Shannon, Dublin and many others ) would be stored in the system, as they are regular use locations that don't move. The Sikorsky also is fitted with an AIS transponder, which is the marine equivalent of TCAS ( Aviation collision and avoidance system, it has that as well), which answer another point that had been raised and was answered today, the Blackrock Lighthouse has an AIS transponder on it, so it would have been visible on their navigation systems from that source, even if it was not on others, which is unlikely.
    Is it safe to presume that this transponder would alert the systems on the helicopter that they were approaching terrain? Or would they just see it on their screens?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    EGPWS, (Enhanced ground proximity warning system) would have been giving very vocal warning about the presence of land close to their altitude, and on the later systems, which I am assuming are in the S92, the area of conflict would be highlighted in a different colour

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 573 ✭✭✭coillsaille


    Looks like the Celtic Voyager is heading that way too.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    I wasn't fully aware til now of the capabilities of the marine institute they're an impressive organisation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭Mech1


    EGPWS, (Enhanced ground proximity warning system) would have been giving very vocal warning about the presence of land close to their altitude, and on the later systems, which I am assuming are in the S92, the area of conflict would be highlighted in a different colour
    Would that alarm activate / happen if landing expected?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,356 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    duskyjoe wrote:
    Agree. Sooner black box out the better. Poor families awaiting retrieval of their loved ones.


    Where is the box fitted in the s92? Can it be retrieved without lifting the while aircraft out?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    If they were outside of the normal approach profile for the selected landing site, yes, and that low so far from Blacksod would fit the criteria for "outside".

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,262 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Why would they need to use Blackrock as a waypoint (as postulated earlier in an NDB/ARA) when they have any amount of nav imagery on board? That far out I'm still not sure why they would need to fly right at/over Blackrock. In VFR ok, I can believe that, but in nighttime IMC I would have thought that flying "vfr by moving map" would suffice.

    Anyway, that is only one possibility of many. All will be revealed in the investigation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Where is the box fitted in the s92? Can it be retrieved without lifting the while aircraft out?

    Behind the cockpit seats, according the the AAIU report on the 2015 winching incident linked above.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 908 ✭✭✭scuby


    cosanostra wrote: »
    I wasn't fully aware til now of the capabilities of the marine institute they're an impressive organisation
    Yep, do alot of work, and the mapping on the infomar page is great


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Re using Blackrock, I will suggest an abundance of caution, in that Blackrock would show up as a separate source from the data provided by the GPS/Navigation system, the AIS beacon would show it, so even if they were hand flying, and not correcting for wind, by flying over Blackrock, then carrying out the teardrop procedure turn back to Blackrock, they would have validated the start of their let down leg for the return to Blacksod. and been able to get the relevant winds at altitude data for the descent, which would then be factored into their descent rate to ensure they arrived at target with enough distance remaining to the coast. And yes, the automation on the aircraft would have been well able to give them a line to follow both horizontally and vertically, and those same on board systems can do exactly the same for a moving target like a trawler.

    Belt, braces and a piece of string in some respects, (GPS, INS, AIS, VOR/DME) but that's how these guys did everything they could to protect themselves from mistakes.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    air wrote: »
    Hard to see why a pilot would select a tiny helipad perched on a rock and at or above the cloud base as the location for an emergency landing. Surely ditching into the sea would be a far preferable option. Any emergency landing is going to have a fair component of forward speed when it hits the ground, it wouldn't be realistic to expect to stay on that pad.


    Is that an opinion of a civilian or someone with heli knowledge?

    😎



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    If they were outside of the normal approach profile for the selected landing site, yes, and that low so far from Blacksod would fit the criteria for "outside".

    But if the selected landing site was Blackrock???? Then it would be disabled. Nothing can be discounted at this stage, including a landing (in error or emergency) at Blackrock.

    Hopefully tomorrow's dive to the helicopter will be successful and the bodies and black box are recovered. Then the families and aviators can finally start to get some answers to this tragic accident in the weeks ahead.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,262 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Here was the weather at Belmullet and Mace Head at the time of the crash.

    1967d1490140755-sar-s-92-missing-ireland-r116-weather.png


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    From the information that's been released, the staff at Blacksod were expecting them, and they had notified Shannon that they were going into the approach pattern for Blacksod. While not officially confirmed in any information I have seen, Blackrock was not deemed a suitable site for S92 operations due to the size of the machine and the space around the helipad, so while the locations would have been in their database, it's unlikely that it would have been selectable as a landing site without considerable additional work beyond selecting the location, which should have triggered mental warnings if not more.

    Yes, it is possible that due to extreme circumstances as yet undetermined, an emergency landing on Blackrock was being attempted, if that proves to be the case, there is a whole new direction for the investigation to go towards. Given that the landing pad was on the top of the rock, there would still have been warnings sounding if they were too low, the best way to describe it would be to think of a funnel without a spout, sitting on the intended landing locations, assuming no high ground around the immediate area, if you go below the limits of the cone of the funnel, then a warning will be triggered, if there is specific high ground inside the limit of the funnel and above it, then that will generate a warning at a higher level.

    If all the aircraft systems were working, which for now we have to assume, they would have known exactly where they were, (horizontally and vertically) and what was around them. If critical (multiple) avionics systems had failed, their "escape" would have been something along the lines of a vertical climb to a safe altitude, with a recovery to a suitable landing locations, with "suitable" being a variable, depending on the nature of the failure/s, the remaining fuel reserves, and the weather conditions at their potential alternates. Their other option in up to sea state 6 (12 to 20 Ft waves) would have been a water landing, as that is the limit for the flotation devices that are fitted.

    And yes, hopefully, we will have some closure for the families, and in the fullness of time, we will hopefully also have some meaningful data from the flight data recorder that will give some clues to the AAIU team.

    It's also important for the rest of the crews that are still operating S92's in Ireland and around the world, if this accident has happened as a result of some form of failure of the aircraft, then the manufacturer and other operators need to know that as a matter of urgency, so that action can be taken to correct whatever had caused this tragedy.

    The one thing we can be sure of, if the AAIU find anything relating to a failure of the aircraft, while their full report may take considerable time before it is released, there will be interim findings released that will provide enough information for the relevant regulators to take urgent action if it is needed.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,262 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    From the information that's been released, the staff at Blacksod were expecting them, and they had notified Shannon that they were going into the approach pattern for Blacksod.

    Where is that information available?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 Exileire


    Additional wreckage was found after investigators abseiled down one of the faces of Blackrock island:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0321/861280-mayo-helicopter-crash/


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Where is that information available?

    I'm not sure where the reference to the refuellers at Blacksod was at the moment, and the reference to landing at Blacksod was contained in an ATC extract earlier in this thread.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭Shamrock841


    Where is that information available?

    If you listen to the atc recording 2 or 3 pages back you will hear the crew quite clearly state their intent (twice) to land on Blacksod and refuel


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Buffman


    Exileire wrote: »
    Additional wreckage was found after investigators abseiled down one of the faces of Blackrock island:
    http://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2017/0321/861280-mayo-helicopter-crash/

    The relevent section of that report.
    some investigators abseiled down the rocky face of the plateau.
    They found additional wreckage in what the AAIU has described as an "area of interest".
    It is thought Rescue 116 may have glanced off Blackrock and spun out of control immediately afterwards.
    Parts of the tail rotor assembly from the aircraft have been found close to the lighthouse at the island's summit.
    A collision with the lighthouse on the island has been ruled out.

    The below is a general 'signature' and not part of any post:

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    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.

    Public transport user? If you're sick of phantom ghost services on the 'official' RTI sources, check bustimes.org for actual 'real' RTI, if it's on their map it actually exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,575 ✭✭✭✭Steve


    RTE wrote:
    It is thought Rescue 116 may have glanced off Blackrock and spun out of control immediately afterwards.

    Worst unfounded unproven journalism drivel ever.

    I cant believe we all pay for this crap.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭Psychlops



    Also, does anyone know which Reg equates to the R115,R116, R117 and R118?

    No registration equates to the callsigns. What you had before this horrible incident was 5 Sikorsky S92's in Ireland. 1 at Sligo, 1 at Shannon, 1 at Waterford & 1 at Dublin & a spare S92 either in Shannon or Waterford ready to go to any base to act as the duty helicopter at any base that required the based one of the S92's to head to Shannon for heavy maintenance. Effectively with one spare they always had 4 S92's available 24/7/365.

    When training they use their everyday callsign EG EI-ICG would be heard as that but if tasked and based at Sligo would change callsign to RESCUE118.

    RESCUE115 is the callsign used by the operational aircraft based at Shannon when on a tasking.

    RESCUE116-Dublin
    RESCUE117-Waterord
    RESCUE118-Sligo.

    RESCUE115 was the first C/sign as Shannon was the 1st SAR base, then Dublin, then Waterford & lastly Sligo.

    They have also been heard using the C/Sign "MEDEVAC".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,356 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Steve wrote: »
    Worst unfounded unproven journalism drivel ever.

    I cant believe we all pay for this crap.

    Absolutely terrible wording. A glance suggests a minor bump.


This discussion has been closed.
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