Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

SpatialPlanning · 08-03-2017 08:28AM

If it's a case of kickouts vs shot stopping, I'd stick with Clarke. For the simple reason that our defence is too easily penetrated by teams like Dublin and Kerry. Having Clarke there probably saves us 3-6 points a game. If his kickouts go awry, we should still have the defensive solidity to account for most errors. He is also more of a presence than Hennelly and I think he offers the team more. In saying that, we are very lucky to have two such options available to us.
Rather than focus on poor execution of a kickout, I'd be more inclined to look at our kickout strategy. If we have an extra man at the back, why aren't we fully utilising him? If another team pushes up then our midfield should be more than able to hold their own in the air. I'm also a little concerned that we were so poor at winning the second ball last week. How can Dublin have 2 players waiting for the breaking ball when no Mayo player is in the vicinity?

Shurimgreat · 08-03-2017 12:05PM

PARlance wrote: »

I think you're having that argument with yourself tbh.

Am I? I'm reading on here people questioning Clarke and saying his kickouts are costing the team. His kickouts are no better or worse than most other goalies.

I think we need to move away from the focus on kickouts.

There was a lot wrong in the game against Dublin, mainly that we were far too open and also looked leggy, which is understandable at this stage of the year.

Our kickouts were the least of our problems. And the goalkeeping situation has also been settled. Clarke all day long. Hennelly, a nice guy I'd say, but just too unreliable when it counts.

RD10 · 08-03-2017 12:54PM

With respect to roscommon, a training session would have been of more benefit to mayo 2 weeks ago, total mismatch and too many people got ahead of themselves thinking thats it we're great now after that match and for the life of me i cannot see why. so many errors were glossed over.
we beat roscommon and everyone thinks we're the best team in the country, we have a woeful night against dublin and everyone has turned on them again.slating them every chance they get.
point is we are not as good as everyone taught we were and we are definately not as bad as last saturday night.
I was at the match, it was just a bad night all round for everyone. yes we have problem areas but we'll be back again stronger next week.
each and everyone of the lads had a poor night but it was just one poor night and the attitude was bad on sat night.
Remember its still only march we're in. we will improve.
From what ive seen so far this year though(and the past few years) i have a problem with a few players. Evan regan really has got buckets of chances and not one game has he impressed me in over the past 2 seasons.
he hasnt made an impact in ANY game so why they are persisting on playing him? in fact he's well and truly beaten by his opposite number in nearly every game. thrown off the ball, cant win ball, wide after wide, two wild shots the last night etc etc.
jason gibbons is not good enough in midfield either imo. we've played four league matches now and i dont think ive seen him field a ball yet.
he may usually be our second choice midfield partner but surely if hes good enough to be that, he can field the odd high ball and really go at the game. He dosnt command midfield either and at the minute to me its like he's just filling in until the regulars come back and take their places rather than really trying to nail down a spot.
kevin mcloughlans persistant fouling is quite annoying and he's constantly kicking away silly balls, and oftentimes under no pressure. i'd say it happens at least twice every match.
everyone knows our back line are woeful exposed at times and we NEED to sort this out..clarke cant keep saving us. i expect we will focus on tightening things up in the next few games.
I wish everyone get off hennelly's case aswell. yes he had a bummer last year, if you were thrown into an all-ireland final like that and in the circumstances he was (dropped after galway game) you'd be a bag of nerves too. few bad kickouts yes and the penalty but can we please stop trying to totally destroy this lads confidence..we all know he is a Lot better than the year he had last year.
he saved our asses in manys a game before..
although i agree clarke is a more comanding figure and id be veering more towards him at the minute myself, hennelly is every bit as good as others keepers.
And finally everyone calling for aidan o shea to return and everything is going to be hunky dorey again...i highly doubt he is the answer to our prayers. big role yet to play yes but he is not the be and end all. everybody else needs to check their attitudes and i expect we'll do that for the cavan game.
diarmuid looks wrecked still. i remember seeing him up the far corner at one stage and in the next play he was right back down beside me the other end, he's doing the work of ten men, he's up and down the pitch in every game working hard, be wont be able to keep it up, others need to start helping him.
Now ive had my rant im off!
However before i go, a shout out to brendan harrison who is keeping up the good work and continueing his good form from last season despite only being back from his hip injury.

PARlance · 08-03-2017 04:58PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Am I? I'm reading on here people questioning Clarke and saying his kickouts are costing the team. His kickouts are no better or worse than most other goalies.

I think we need to move away from the focus on kickouts.

There was a lot wrong in the game against Dublin, mainly that we were far too open and also looked leggy, which is understandable at this stage of the year.

Our kickouts were the least of our problems. And the goalkeeping situation has also been settled. Clarke all day long. Hennelly, a nice guy I'd say, but just too unreliable when it counts.

A lot are highlighting Clarke's weakness surrounding the kick out and some are giving some opinions on why Clarke was dropped for the replay but I don’t see anyone "advocating a return for Hennelly". You're just going off on a tangent with that one.

km79 · 08-03-2017 05:10PM

PARlance wrote: »

A lot are highlighting Clarke's weakness surrounding the kick out and some are giving some opinions on why Clarke was dropped for the replay but I don’t see anyone "advocating a return for Hennelly". You're just going off on a tangent with that one.

Exactly

Shurimgreat · 08-03-2017 06:23PM

PARlance wrote: »

A lot are highlighting Clarke's weakness surrounding the kick out and some are giving some opinions on why Clarke was dropped for the replay but I don’t see anyone "advocating a return for Hennelly". You're just going off on a tangent with that one.

I don't see his kickouts a particular problem. The guy is a proven keeper. The Dublin game is a blip I'd say for all concerned as it was one of those very poor performances Mayo are capable of usually once or twice a year.
He's still the best keeper we have and most counties would bite your arm off to have him. We have no alternative to him at the moment.

It was a stupid obsession with kickouts that played a part in getting Clarke dropped for the replay last year, so lets not make that mistake again.

danganabu · 08-03-2017 06:44PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It was a stupid obsession with kickouts that played a part in getting Clarke dropped for the replay last year, so lets not make that mistake again.

Kick-outs are probably the single most important aspect of the modern game, there are on average, in a championship match, 40-45 kick-outs, and with teams ability now to retain possession once it is won without a successful kick-out strategy you are basically at nothing. Of course its not all down to the keeper, but they are the one constant in the formula.

blinding · 08-03-2017 07:02PM

Kick it out to Aiden O'Shea and have big Shemozzle if he does not catch it.....

I am a tactical genius (Okay I have only one Tactic )

MayoAreMagic · 08-03-2017 07:17PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Mayo don't have a keeper who can kick the ball out and can't cope with the way that Cluxton kicks it out, so you want a rule change!!!!!!

I think you need to widen your viewpoint past your own county. Cluxton wont be around forever, what then for Dublin? Also, it was in fact cluxton that had the biggest meltdown to date under these type of tactics, in the semi against Kerry. Every keeper will suffer over this.

It's not about Cluxton or Clarke, it is about the amount riding on what is supposed to be a simple restart of play and the whole ethos of spending that much time coming up with tactics to spoil kickouts to score, rather than good sweeping, attacking moves from down the field. It isn't a good direction for the game to be going in, not to mention very harsh on goalkeepers.

No more than getting 15 men behind the ball, it is a bit of a joyless direction for the game to be going in. Surely we should be looking to see the ball in open play more and not teams having to kick the ball backwards on a kickout for fear of losing it?

I think the change of where a kickout is taken from after a score was a mistake and this has come about from that. Even reintroducing that could have a positive effect.

blanch152 · 08-03-2017 07:37PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I think you need to widen your viewpoint past your own county. Cluxton wont be around forever, what then for Dublin? Also, it was in fact cluxton that had the biggest meltdown to date under these type of tactics, in the semi against Kerry. Every keeper will suffer over this.

It's not about Cluxton or Clarke, it is about the amount riding on what is supposed to be a simple restart of play and the whole ethos of spending that much time coming up with tactics to spoil kickouts to score, rather than good sweeping, attacking moves from down the field. It isn't a good direction for the game to be going in, not to mention very harsh on goalkeepers.

No more than getting 15 men behind the ball, it is a bit of a joyless direction for the game to be going in. Surely we should be looking to see the ball in open play more and not teams having to kick the ball backwards on a kickout for fear of losing it?

I think the change of where a kickout is taken from after a score was a mistake and this has come about from that. Even reintroducing that could have a positive effect.

"teams having to kick the ball backwards on a kickout" - I have never ever seen this happen. Can you link to an example (apart from Bellmullet on a soft windy day)?

Yes, we all want to see the ball in open play as much as possible, therefore we are going to introduce a new rule that requires all players to go back into position as slowly, I mean as quickly, as possible before the kickout can be taken so that the time the ball is out of play is reduced to five minutes while all of this takes place?

The speed of the game and the amount of time the ball is in play have improved dramatically since they allowed quick kickouts. Only one rule change needed in football - reduce to 13-a-side to reduce the effectiveness of the mass defence as the smaller number of players can't cover the same amount of space. Then you will see "good sweeping, attacking moves from down the field."

MayoAreMagic · 08-03-2017 07:56PM

blanch152 wrote: »

"teams having to kick the ball backwards on a kickout" - I have never ever seen this happen. Can you link to an example (apart from Bellmullet on a soft windy day)?

Yes, we all want to see the ball in open play as much as possible, therefore we are going to introduce a new rule that requires all players to go back into position as slowly, I mean as quickly, as possible before the kickout can be taken so that the time the ball is out of play is reduced to five minutes while all of this takes place?

The speed of the game and the amount of time the ball is in play have improved dramatically since they allowed quick kickouts. Only one rule change needed in football - reduce to 13-a-side to reduce the effectiveness of the mass defence as the smaller number of players can't cover the same amount of space. Then you will see "good sweeping, attacking moves from down the field."

Im pretty sure cluxton did it in the 2015 semi, however even kicking it sideways is the same thing. I said backwards as going on trends that is most likely the next thing we are going to see teams doing more of - ie stretching the press of the opposition to create a gap in it.

As for the bit about slowing ir down - im pretty sure that is timewasting and there is rules already in place for this, not that thus is relevant to thus point. You might be getting confused with a different point there.

Re 13 a side, teams can still push up on kickouts in the same manner. It doesnt really solve this issue

blanch152 · 08-03-2017 08:09PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Im pretty sure cluxton did it in the 2015 semi, however even kicking it sideways is the same thing. I said backwards as going on trends that is most likely the next thing we are going to see teams doing more of - ie stretching the press of the opposition to create a gap in it.

As for the bit about slowing ir down - im pretty sure that is timewasting and there is rules already in place for this, not that thus is relevant to thus point. You might be getting confused with a different point there.

Re 13 a side, teams can still push up on kickouts in the same manner. It doesnt really solve this issue

Your idea would slow the game down as kickouts couldn't be taken until teams were back in set places, while 13-a-side creates more space on the pitch, better for kickouts (even Clarke's wayward ones), better for attacking play.

Your idea is designed to deal with the fact that Cluxton's and Clarke's kickouts embarrass Mayo and you want to find a way to deal with them regardless of the consequences.

charlie14 · 08-03-2017 08:37PM

blanch152 wrote: »

"teams having to kick the ball backwards on a kickout" - I have never ever seen this happen. Can you link to an example (apart from Bellmullet on a soft windy day)?

Rule 2.7 (a).

"The ball shall travel 13 meters before being played by another player of the defending team"

There is nothing in the rules to prevent a goalkeeper taking a kick-out kicking the ball backwards.

MayoAreMagic · 08-03-2017 10:00PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Your idea would slow the game down as kickouts couldn't be taken until teams were back in set places, while 13-a-side creates more space on the pitch, better for kickouts (even Clarke's wayward ones), better for attacking play.

Your idea is designed to deal with the fact that Cluxton's and Clarke's kickouts embarrass Mayo and you want to find a way to deal with them regardless of the consequences.

Im not tied to one particular idea. Im more pointing out that we need to move away from this set play ethos, where players are getting picked in games for their ability on a kickout. Otherwise we are heading for stoke city v Wimbledon in every other game.

Re the design of my idea, it is to help clarke against dublin, cluxton against kerry, durkin against kerry, the galway keeper against mayo a few years back, etc etc. It is to help goalkeepers and make the game more about football than set plays. You are just focusing on clarke v dublin because your interest doesnt go beyond your own county

danganabu · 08-03-2017 10:13PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Im not tied to one particular idea. Im more pointing out that we need to move away from this set play ethos, where players are getting picked in games for their ability on a kickout. Otherwise we are heading for stoke city v Wimbledon in every other game.

Re the design of my idea, it is to help clarke against dublin, cluxton against kerry, durkin against kerry, the galway keeper against mayo a few years back, etc etc. It is to help goalkeepers and make the game more about football than set plays. You are just focusing on clarke v dublin because your interest doesnt go beyond your own county

I think its the irony that I like best

:D

MayoAreMagic · 09-03-2017 10:41AM

danganabu wrote: »

I think its the irony that I like best :D

That is the thing though, it does go beyond my own county. It suits all teams because it would improve the game. All teams includes mayo, I accept, but it also includes everyone else. Im just trying to look at the bigger picture and address the direction the game is going. Maybe if we did that we wouldn't have to be constantly fighting fires with our rule making.

Going by your logic, you can only have a good suggestion when it will never be of any use to your own team. So the guy coming up with the mark needed a small midfield pairing in his local team. It is just a parochial, stale way of approaching everything, where the end result is nothing gets done.

As you say yourself, and I quote - 'Kick-outs are probably the single most important aspect of the modern game'. My question is, should they actually be so important? Is the kick out/kick off the most important part of soccer? Is the restart the most important part of rugby? Rugby in particular have rules to avoid this sort of thing, where the restarts occur from out the field and the only ones near your own goals are for particular circumstances.

flasher0030 · 09-03-2017 11:02AM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That is the thing though, it does go beyond my own county. It suits all teams because it would improve the game. All teams includes mayo, I accept, but it also includes everyone else.

Going by your logic, you can only have a good suggestion when it will never be of any use to your own team. So the guy coming up with the mark needed a small midfield pairing in his local team. It is just a parochial, stale way of approaching everything, where the end result is nothing gets done.

As you say yourself, and I quote - 'Kick-outs are probably the single most important aspect of the modern game'. My question is, should they actually be so important? Is the kick out/kick off the most important part of soccer? Is the restart the most important part of rugby? Rugby in particular have rules to avoid this sort of thing, where the kicks occur from out the field.

You’re not coming out too well on this one. I think you should go back to giving the Dubs a piece of your mind about the excessive funding they received.

MayoAreMagic · 09-03-2017 11:36AM

flasher0030 wrote: »

You’re not coming out too well on this one. I think you should go back to giving the Dubs a piece of your mind about the excessive funding they received.

flasher0030 wrote: »

What Nonevernomore stated is true. How is that trolling. Have a look back at the various GAA threads, and you will see it mentioned several times. For you to come along and "flash your badge", just because you do not like the funding issue to be raised again is wrong.

I'll leave that to yourself man...

Shurimgreat · 09-03-2017 03:08PM

danganabu wrote: »

Kick-outs are probably the single most important aspect of the modern game, there are on average, in a championship match, 40-45 kick-outs, and with teams ability now to retain possession once it is won without a successful kick-out strategy you are basically at nothing. Of course its not all down to the keeper, but they are the one constant in the formula.

No they are not, as proved by last years all-Ireland final.

We dropped the best keeper in the country for a goalie who supposedly had a vastly superior kickout.

You know the rest.

A keepers role is far more than just about kickouts, otherwise you could put anyone in goals who can kick the ball well.

We really need to put this kickout sh*te to bed or we will be back to making the same mistakes as the past. The debate is over, done. Anyone who questions Clarke being Mayo's number one goalie is clueless about football.

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-03-2017 04:30PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

No they are not, as proved by last years all-Ireland final.

We dropped the best keeper in the country for a goalie who supposedly had a vastly superior kickout.

You know the rest.

A keepers role is far more than just about kickouts, otherwise you could put anyone in goals who can kick the ball well.

We really need to put this kickout sh*te to bed or we will be back to making the same mistakes as the past. The debate is over, done. Anyone who questions Clarke being Mayo's number one goalie is clueless about football.

It's not that simple.

No one suggested that Hennelly "had a vastly superior kickout".

The reasoning was that part of the Dublin game plan was to traget the Clarke kickout.

If you take Clarke's kickout away (alter the kickout strategy) then you take part of Dublin's game plan away.
Making them come up with an alternative.

That's what we are dealing with in 21st century football, minute levels of analysis of where you can find an advantage.

MayoAreMagic · 09-03-2017 04:38PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's not that simple.

No one suggested that Hennelly "had a vastly superior kickout".

The reasoning was that part of the Dublin game plan was to traget the Clarke kickout.

If you take Clarke's kickout away (alter the kickout strategy) then you take part of Dublin's game plan away.
Making them come up with an alternative.

That's what we are dealing with in 21st century football, minute levels of analysis of where you can find an advantage.

Exactly.
Consider further that dublin's plan was to push up hard and in numbers. So what happens if you can then kick over the press? Exactly what donegal did in 2014 - You get over the top of the press with space to attack into with real goal chances. All you need is for that to work well maybe twice and you should have two goals.

Now im not saying id have gone with it. But i can see what they were thinking

charlie14 · 09-03-2017 05:07PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Exactly.
Consider further that dublin's plan was to push up hard and in numbers. So what happens if you can then kick over the press? Exactly what donegal did in 2014 - You get over the top of the press with space to attack into with real goal chances. All you need is for that to work well maybe twice and you should have two goals.

Now im not saying id have gone with it. But i can see what they were thinking

Not that simple to just kick over the press nowadays with Dublin.
It was a weakness that Jim McGuinness identified where Dublin committed all their half-back line to the press, with nobody home to mind the house with acres of open space between midfield and their full-back line by keeping two forwards deep to occupy that Dublin line.
Dublin learned from that and rarely leave themselves as open nowadays.

Panrich · 09-03-2017 05:17PM

We were beaten all ends up on Saturday so I'm not sure that focusing too much of this discussion on Clarkes kickouts is going to fix everything. We had enough possession to at least trouble the scoreboard from play in the first half and also not scoring for the last 20 plus minutes is not solely down to poor kickouts either.

MayoAreMagic · 09-03-2017 05:20PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Not that simple to just kick over the press nowadays with Dublin.
It was a weakness that Jim McGuinness identified where Dublin committed all their half-back line to the press, with nobody home to mind the house with acres of open space between midfield and their full-back line by keeping two forwards deep to occupy that Dublin line.
Dublin learned from that and rarely leave themselves as open nowadays.

Did you not see the graphic of the Dublin setup on our kickouts from the weekend? They had 12 men pressing up on the mayo half on our restarts at times. Which means only 2 at home and the goalkeeper. It was a copy of what Kerry did to them in the semi last year. A long kick flicked on to a runner would leave them very exposed in a 3 on 2 situation. But Clarke's floating kickout gives them time to get back, plus it doesn't have the distance, so they can commit to it.
In reality we just have to start doing what Dublin are doing themselves and drop right back basically onto the end line to collect the ball and then use the keeper as a spare man. It is boring football and taken straight from the soccer handbook, but that is the way the game is going.

The Talking Bread · 09-03-2017 05:22PM

Thread has now resorted back to Clarke and his kickouts again. Bigger problems. Much bigger.

Shurimgreat · 09-03-2017 06:04PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's not that simple.

No one suggested that Hennelly "had a vastly superior kickout".

The reasoning was that part of the Dublin game plan was to traget the Clarke kickout.

If you take Clarke's kickout away (alter the kickout strategy) then you take part of Dublin's game plan away.
Making them come up with an alternative.

That's what we are dealing with in 21st century football, minute levels of analysis of where you can find an advantage.

Minute levels of analysis give you minute advantages.

At the end of the day its always the team with the better footballers who win and at the moment Mayo does not have footballers who can match Dublin, particularly forwards.

We are brilliant in the first two/thirds and when we get to the final third more often than not we are poor.

We have the best goalie, backs and occasionally midfield in the country. When we get to the forwards, its always a mixed bag, and usually we rely on Andy Moran or O'Connor from frees to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

We need one or two forwards who can score 4 or 5 points from play week in week out. That's where the focus should be, rather than an obsession with kickouts.

charlie14 · 09-03-2017 06:08PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Did you not see the graphic of the Dublin setup on our kickouts from the weekend? They had 12 men pressing up on the mayo half on our restarts at times. Which means only 2 at home and the goalkeeper. It was a copy of what Kerry did to them in the semi last year. A long kick flicked on to a runner would leave them very exposed in a 3 on 2 situation. But Clarke's floating kickout gives them time to get back, plus it doesn't have the distance, so they can commit to it.
In reality we just have to start doing what Dublin are doing themselves and drop right back basically onto the end line to collect the ball and then use the keeper as a spare man. It is boring football and taken straight from the soccer handbook, but that is the way the game is going.

I did see how they were set up and to me that was because Jim Gavin had his homework done by going for a full press.
Had Mayo tried what Donegal did in 2014, Dublin would have reverted to having half-backs in that area in jig time.
They are not going to be caught like that again with that tactic.
Imo to beat Dublin nowadays needs accurate kicking from a keeper with players knowing where that kick is going and creating the space for who it is intended for. Try running the ball from your own end line you will find that these Dubs hit hard and with 15 mins to go and they bring on the cavalry up front your midfield and six backs will be out on their feet.

danganabu · 09-03-2017 06:11PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Minute levels of analysis give you minute advantages.

At the end of the day its always the team with the better footballers who win and at the moment Mayo does not have footballers who can match Dublin, particularly forwards.

We are brilliant in the first two/thirds and when we get to the final third more often than not we are poor.

We have the best goalie, backs and occasionally midfield in the country. When we get to the forwards, its always a mixed bag, and usually over dependent on B. Moran or O'Connor from frees to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

We need one or two forwards who can score 4 or 5 points from play week in week out.

The first part I have bolded is so far from the truth its not funny, talent is merely a starting point and the best footballers without the proper preparation, organisation and tactical know how are at nothing.

The second part I have bolded because this is not the first time you have stated this as a fact, when it's a point for debate at best. Best shot stopper perhaps, although even that is a stretch.

The game has evolved so much in the last 10-15 years but some people simply can't or won' accept it, it's like when I'm at a hurling match and a keeper takes a short puck out and everyone to a man over the age of 50 starts groaning and bitching about the stupidness of it all, always gives me a good laugh, they just don't get it!!

Donal55 · 09-03-2017 07:52PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Minute levels of analysis give you minute advantages.

At the end of the day its always the team with the better footballers who win and at the moment Mayo does not have footballers who can match Dublin, particularly forwards.

We are brilliant in the first two/thirds and when we get to the final third more often than not we are poor.

We have the best goalie, backs and occasionally midfield in the country. When we get to the forwards, its always a mixed bag, and usually we rely on B. Moran or O'Connor from frees to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

We need one or two forwards who can score 4 or 5 points from play week in week out. That's where the focus should be, rather than an obsession with kickouts.

The 'best goalie', who is the subject of so much controversy within boards and the media in general, in regard to his inability to kick a ball out from the square to other players on his team.
I'd say Dublin are happy to stick with the 'second
best' goalie.
ðŸ˜€

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-03-2017 07:53PM

danganabu wrote: »

The first part I have bolded is so far from the truth its not funny, talent is merely a starting point and the best footballers without the proper preparation, organisation and tactical know how are at nothing.

The second part I have bolded because this is not the first time you have stated this as a fact, when it's a point for debate at best. Best shot stopper perhaps, although even that is a stretch.

The game has evolved so much in the last 10-15 years but some people simply can't or won' accept it, it's like when I'm at a hurling match and a keeper takes a short puck out and everyone to a man over the age of 50 starts groaning and bitching about the stupidness of it all, always gives me a good laugh, they just don't get it!!

I remember John Inverdale of the BBC mentioned once when he was first at a hurling game in CP about the mid 2000s that he found it very odd that a team was willing to just gamble with giving away possession from each and every restart by just pucking the ball long up the field.

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

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