Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Shurimgreat · 06-03-2017 06:19PM

homewardbound11 wrote: »

No one talked of the risk of Henley under high ball . 2012 and 2016 were enough for me.

The reason we were cleaned st mid field was that out natural half back line were in the full back positions . Breaking balls were lost as was the transition into attack .

We didn't have the power to hold of players in the forward line and that caused players to be isolated . All of the above is easily rectified so I wouldn't panic just yet .
the

The arguments around Hennelly are long settled, he's nowhere near the class of goalie as Clarke, that's been proved time and time again.

TCDStudent1 · 06-03-2017 07:27PM

seligehgit wrote: »

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

Its strange - when Mayo were playing Dublin last year, a lot of people were saying to push up on Dublin's kickouts. Now after the weekend's defeat, most are saying to not push up!

Donal55 · 06-03-2017 08:58PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The arguments around Hennelly are long settled, he's nowhere near the class of goalie as Clarke, that's been proved time and time again.

I've found it interesting listening to all the commentary since the match that most observers appear to be laying the blame on the Mayo goalkeeper and his inability to kick out effectively.

Now I'm not complaining as one who was shouting for the Dubs on Saturday, but I think it's a bit rich when the forward lines as well as the midfield were virtually non existent.

Sports journalists all day today, including David Brady, all highlighted Clarkes weaknesses. Justified they are but my concern is that a man who saved Mayo from an even bigger hiding may become the scapegoat when other players of equal status were gone awol and do appear to have slipped under the media's radar. It's evident on this thread also that a lot of Mayo supporters here are criticising Clarke whilst the rest of a very poor team escape unscathed.

seligehgit · 06-03-2017 09:16PM

Donal55 wrote: »

I've found it interesting listening to all the commentary since the match that most observers appear to be laying the blame on the Mayo goalkeeper and his inability to kick out effectively.

Now I'm not complaining as one who was shouting for the Dubs on Saturday, but I think it's a bit rich when the forward lines as well as the midfield were virtually non existent.

Sports journalists all day today, including David Brady, all highlighted Clarkes weaknesses. Justified they are but my concern is that a man who saved Mayo from an even bigger hiding may become the scapegoat when other players of equal status were gone awol and do appear to have slipped under the media's radar. It's evident on this thread also that a lot of Mayo supporters here are criticising Clarke whilst the rest of a very poor team escape unscathed.

Ah I simply think the aftermath of a dismal performance by all and sundry has been taken off on a not unimportant tangent.

There are numerous posts offering due recognition to our issues all over the park.

Blackjack · 06-03-2017 11:46PM

Donal55 wrote: »

I've found it interesting listening to all the commentary since the match that most observers appear to be laying the blame on the Mayo goalkeeper and his inability to kick out effectively.

Now I'm not complaining as one who was shouting for the Dubs on Saturday, but I think it's a bit rich when the forward lines as well as the midfield were virtually non existent.

Sports journalists all day today, including David Brady, all highlighted Clarkes weaknesses. Justified they are but my concern is that a man who saved Mayo from an even bigger hiding may become the scapegoat when other players of equal status were gone awol and do appear to have slipped under the media's radar. It's evident on this thread also that a lot of Mayo supporters here are criticising Clarke whilst the rest of a very poor team escape unscathed.

There's no doubt there was an all systems failure and few of our players could come away from Croke Park with their heads up.

By the same token our Manager took an awful lot of criticism for dropping Clarke last year but the reasoning for doing so was plain for all to see.

At the same time, if we're going to have a game like this then this is also the time to have it.

We have a bit of time to regroup for the Cavan game and if they lose to Tyrone and to us, our Division one status is assured and a bit more experimentation, if that's what's needed, can be done vs Tyrone and Donegal.

rrs · 07-03-2017 12:19AM

Will the O Shea's be back for the Cavan game?

Audioslaven · 07-03-2017 12:44AM

Blackjack wrote: »

By the same token our Manager took an awful lot of criticism for dropping Clarke last year but the reasoning for doing so was plain for all to see.

.

It was a complete and utter mistake made by Rochford. We would have won if Rochford didn't go pricking around with the goalie. Clarke is a far superior goalie to any other option we have, irrespective of any criticism that is loaded on him after last saturday. I think you really need to apply this criticism across the complete team as alot of guys went totally missing. Also, who knows the level of training that was done during the week as Mayo looked tired.

PhoneMain · 07-03-2017 11:03AM

Donal55 wrote: »

I've found it interesting listening to all the commentary since the match that most observers appear to be laying the blame on the Mayo goalkeeper and his inability to kick out effectively.

Now I'm not complaining as one who was shouting for the Dubs on Saturday, but I think it's a bit rich when the forward lines as well as the midfield were virtually non existent.

Sports journalists all day today, including David Brady, all highlighted Clarkes weaknesses. Justified they are but my concern is that a man who saved Mayo from an even bigger hiding may become the scapegoat when other players of equal status were gone awol and do appear to have slipped under the media's radar. It's evident on this thread also that a lot of Mayo supporters here are criticising Clarke whilst the rest of a very poor team escape unscathed.

Have to agree with this. I think a big failing of ours is that we haven't found a really good inside forward. Andy Moran 1 to 1 inside with Fitzsimons is really hard to watch and while AM battled manfully, he was often beaten to the ball or isolated when he got it. I can't understand how we're not producing better inside forward, lads who can get a couple of metres from their marker and kick a point. Also, I was really disapointed with some of the shot selection, Regan attempted a terrible one in the first half, was in a decent place to kick but didn't settle and just ended up pulling wildly on it!!

That said, we'll be there or there abouts come August/September. Also, how often to Dublin look unbeatable in Spring and they're a lot more vulnerable come Autumn. I've a sneaky feeling they wont do 3 in a row this year.

km79 · 07-03-2017 11:11AM

Audioslaven wrote: »

It was a complete and utter mistake made by Rochford. We would have won if Rochford didn't go pricking around with the goalie. Clarke is a far superior goalie to any other option we have, irrespective of any criticism that is loaded on him after last saturday. I think you really need to apply this criticism across the complete team as alot of guys went totally missing. Also, who knows the level of training that was done during the week as Mayo looked tired.

I do think they looked very leggy and that has happened in the league before
Hopefully that's all it was
And maybe he doesn't want to show his hand cos surely he will employ the sweeper against them if we meet again
Been a while since we played it now though .......maybe will roll it out against Tyrone again

Shurimgreat · 07-03-2017 12:22PM

Donal55 wrote: »

I've found it interesting listening to all the commentary since the match that most observers appear to be laying the blame on the Mayo goalkeeper and his inability to kick out effectively.

Now I'm not complaining as one who was shouting for the Dubs on Saturday, but I think it's a bit rich when the forward lines as well as the midfield were virtually non existent.

Sports journalists all day today, including David Brady, all highlighted Clarkes weaknesses. Justified they are but my concern is that a man who saved Mayo from an even bigger hiding may become the scapegoat when other players of equal status were gone awol and do appear to have slipped under the media's radar. It's evident on this thread also that a lot of Mayo supporters here are criticising Clarke whilst the rest of a very poor team escape unscathed.

Agreed. Goalkeepers can play a part in their own third of the field but have little or no influence when it goes to the other 2/3s of the field which is where Mayo were badly let down against Dublin.

That said, I think what happens to Mayo in March has no influence on what happens later in the year. Perhaps a few hidings is what Mayo need at this stage to shake off complacency and find out their weaknesses.

But I repeat, Hennelly is not the answer, unless we want history to repeat itself.

Shurimgreat · 07-03-2017 12:32PM

Blackjack wrote: »

This. The last 10 minutes of the drawn game showed why Clarke was dropped, his kickouts were wayward and Dublin picked up 3 or 4 points directly from them. It really was something Rochford had to try to address and unfortunately for Hennelly, he didn't have a great day either - 1 kickout lead to Keegan being sent to the bench and the Penalty incident both gamechangers we didn't need.

Clarke is a far better shot stopper and better at all aspects of the game bar the kickouts, where Hennelly is much better and far better at the long range shots.

And yet he was responsible for several wayward kick outs in the replay last year, probably more than Clarke in the drawn game. Including the one that got Keegan black carded. Also wayward against Galway in Connacht. Not a great shots-stopper either and unreliable under a dropping ball. The only box he supposedly ticks is long frees and yet he's unreliable at those too.

Clarke wins out all day long.

Stoner · 07-03-2017 01:11PM

I think keepers have never been under more pressure. Constantly guys are belittled for having meltdowns where as the reality is that they've never been analysed or prepared for as much before.
A year ago very few people knew that Clarke's kickouts "hung in the air too much"

MayoAreMagic · 07-03-2017 02:22PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Its strange - when Mayo were playing Dublin last year, a lot of people were saying to push up on Dublin's kickouts. Now after the weekend's defeat, most are saying to not push up!

Would have to agree. In fairness, Holmes and Connelly were lambasted for not pushing up - be it by pundits or fans - and offering Dublin a corner back to give the ball to. Now that is what everyone is doing...

Truth be told it is actually a good example of people commenting on a tactic while not really understanding it.

Personally I think the whole kickouts thing is a sign that we aren't governing them properly and that weakness in the rules is being exploited. At the end of the day, we want the game played with the ball out in open play rather than the it becoming a game decided on set plays from dead balls. Therefore I believe we need some smart rules around kickouts. The most obvious one would be some form of reset of positions before the ball is kicked.

Donal55 · 07-03-2017 02:35PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Would have to agree. In fairness, Holmes and Connelly were lambasted for not pushing up - be it by pundits or fans - and offering Dublin a corner back to give the ball to. Now that is what everyone is doing...

Truth be told it is actually a good example of people commenting on a tactic while not really understanding it.

Personally I think the whole kickouts thing is a sign that we aren't governing them properly and that weakness in the rules is being exploited. At the end of the day, we want the game played with the ball out in open play rather than the it becoming a game decided on set plays from dead balls. Therefore I believe we need some smart rules around kickouts. The most obvious one would be some form of reset of positions before the ball is kicked.

Ha Ha Ha. So you want the rules changed to allow players to get back because Cluxton's kick outs are by passing them!
Why dont we just give Mayo a 6 point start you clown.

MayoAreMagic · 07-03-2017 02:58PM

Donal55 wrote: »

Ha Ha Ha. So you want the rules changed to allow players to get back because Cluxton's kick outs are by passing them!
Why dont we just give Mayo a 6 point start you clown.

Little to do with Cluxton. His kickouts generally go short anyway and there is still nothing stopping him from booming it out after a reset.

Maybe view the thing as a gaa man rather than a dublin gaa man. There is too much focus on kickouts at present.

Blackjack · 07-03-2017 03:17PM

Audioslaven wrote: »

It was a complete and utter mistake made by Rochford. We would have won if Rochford didn't go pricking around with the goalie. Clarke is a far superior goalie to any other option we have, irrespective of any criticism that is loaded on him after last saturday. I think you really need to apply this criticism across the complete team as alot of guys went totally missing. Also, who knows the level of training that was done during the week as Mayo looked tired.

There's no doubt that Clarke is a better shot stopper, better under the high ball and unquestionably better at commanding the square.

However to say we would have won if Clarke was in goal is indeed stretching it.

Rochford had to make some changes - if he hadn't, and we had lost as a result of anything, not least Clarke's kickouts, he would have been castigated for not making a change.
We all have the benefit of hindsight now and while Hennelly did drop the ball - in every sense for the penalty - but also for some of the other kickouts, the Margin of victory was a single point. Can we say with certainty that if he had caught that ball instead of fluffing it we would have won by 2?. I don't think we can.

naughto · 07-03-2017 03:20PM

Donal55 wrote: »

Ha Ha Ha. So you want the rules changed to allow players to get back because Cluxton's kick outs are by passing them!
Why dont we just give Mayo a 6 point start you clown.

Now Donal play nice no one is allow call mayoaremagic a clown bar me that is.

On a different not I see the rossie thread is dead wasint this time last yr certain posters where having a right go at us cos we where playing so sh1te and they where beating be 4 and behinde them, it's funny how things change

MayoAreMagic · 07-03-2017 03:33PM

Blackjack wrote: »

There's no doubt that Clarke is a better shot stopper, better under the high ball and unquestionably better at commanding the square.

However to say we would have won if Clarke was in goal is indeed stretching it.

Rochford had to make some changes - if he hadn't, and we had lost as a result of anything, not least Clarke's kickouts, he would have been castigated for not making a change.
We all have the benefit of hindsight now and while Hennelly did drop the ball - in every sense for the penalty - but also for some of the other kickouts, the Margin of victory was a single point. Can we say with certainty that if he had caught that ball instead of fluffing it we would have won by 2?. I don't think we can.

Spot on. Would we have scored that goal? It came off hennelly's long kickout... You just have to judge the thing on it's merits and it would have been a different game for both teams. I do think it was a mistake, but I wouldn't be saying that we would have won either.

Fr Tod Umptious · 07-03-2017 03:51PM

naughto wrote: »

Now Donal play nice no one is allow call mayoaremagic a clown bar me that is.

On a different not I see the rossie thread is dead wasint this time last yr certain posters where having a right go at us cos we where playing so sh1te and they where beating be 4 and behinde them, it's funny how things change

Yep I don't even feel like going over there and taking the piss.

What was the famous quote from last year from that thread, it was about the state of the Hyde, and it went something like "counties like Offaly built a stadium, but we are building a team"

Always_Running · 07-03-2017 03:59PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yep I don't even feel like going over there and taking the piss.

What was the famous quote from last year from that thread, it was about the state of the Hyde, and it went something like "counties like Offaly built a stadium, but we are building a team"

In fairness a fine playing surface in the Hyde now and they are building a new team with both Shines,C Cregg,S Kilbride,D Keenan,N Collins,N Carty,S Purcell,G Claffey and the 3 Dalys gone from last years team/panel

TCDStudent1 · 07-03-2017 04:36PM

Blackjack wrote: »

There's no doubt that Clarke is a better shot stopper, better under the high ball and unquestionably better at commanding the square.

However to say we would have won if Clarke was in goal is indeed stretching it.

Rochford had to make some changes - if he hadn't, and we had lost as a result of anything, not least Clarke's kickouts, he would have been castigated for not making a change.
We all have the benefit of hindsight now and while Hennelly did drop the ball - in every sense for the penalty - but also for some of the other kickouts, the Margin of victory was a single point. Can we say with certainty that if he had caught that ball instead of fluffing it we would have won by 2?. I don't think we can.

But its not the benefit of hindsight. On the morning of the game, when the rumour broke that Hennelly was starting, most people questioned it. I did not meet one person who thought it was a good idea before the game & I talked to a lot of people about the match on that day! Everybody said that it was a very risky change to make. They had the foresight to see that it was a change wrought with danger. Everybody was talking about Hennelly that morning which was already putting huge pressure on him.

During his Corofin tenure, Rochford was very highly rated. However, some Corofin people felt he liked to make changes like this so that he would look a bit of a genius when they came off. In the AI replay, it made him look somewhat foolish with the way things panned out in the game.

I agree that you cannot say Mayo would have won if Clarke started. For all we know, Clarke would have had a bigger howler than Hennelly! Anyway, this is covering very old ground - I do not think the risk of changing goalkeeper for a high pressure game like an AI final replay came anywhere close to outweighing the benefits that it might bring. That was as clear to me (and many others) before the game as it was afterwards.

naughto · 07-03-2017 04:44PM

Always_Running wrote: »

In fairness a fine playing surface in the Hyde now and they are building a new team with both Shines,C Cregg,S Kilbride,D Keenan,N Collins,N Carty,S Purcell,G Claffey and the 3 Dalys gone from last years team/panel

There has to be a big reason why so many are leaving would you leave a team if they thought they could challenge for the all ireland.

danganabu · 07-03-2017 05:45PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

In the AI replay, it made him look somewhat foolish with the way things panned out in the game.

Don't think it made him look foolish as all, the reasoning was perfectly sound and valid and he had the balls to make the big call. The fact that it didn't work out doesn't make him foolish.

Identifying a problem and ignoring it because its the safer option, that would be foolish!

Shurimgreat · 07-03-2017 06:22PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Spot on. Would we have scored that goal? It came off hennelly's long kickout... You just have to judge the thing on it's merits and it would have been a different game for both teams. I do think it was a mistake, but I wouldn't be saying that we would have won either.

We lost our footballer of the year because of Hennelly. We also dropped a proven All-Star goalkeeper.

Hennelly does not bring anything Clarke doesn't. He had a number of wayward kickouts and a couple of good ones. No different to Clarke with regards kickouts really.

The main point is he's an accident waiting to happen on the big day.

I can't believe people are advocating a return to Hennelly.

PARlance · 07-03-2017 07:08PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I can't believe people are advocating a return to Hennelly.

I think you're having that argument with yourself tbh.

Blackjack · 07-03-2017 08:50PM

danganabu wrote: »

Don't think it made him look foolish as all, the reasoning was perfectly sound and valid and he had the balls to make the big call. The fact that it didn't work out doesn't make him foolish.

Identifying a problem and ignoring it because its the safer option, that would be foolish!

This

Fr Tod Umptious · 07-03-2017 09:06PM

Blackjack wrote: »

This

That too.

blanch152 · 07-03-2017 09:59PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Little to do with Cluxton. His kickouts generally go short anyway and there is still nothing stopping him from booming it out after a reset.

Maybe view the thing as a gaa man rather than a dublin gaa man. There is too much focus on kickouts at present.

Mayo don't have a keeper who can kick the ball out and can't cope with the way that Cluxton kicks it out, so you want a rule change!!!!!!

Audioslaven · 07-03-2017 11:16PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

But its not the benefit of hindsight. On the morning of the game, when the rumour broke that Hennelly was starting, most people questioned it. I did not meet one person who thought it was a good idea before the game & I talked to a lot of people about the match on that day! Everybody said that it was a very risky change to make. They had the foresight to see that it was a change wrought with danger. Everybody was talking about Hennelly that morning which was already putting huge pressure on him.

During his Corofin tenure, Rochford was very highly rated. However, some Corofin people felt he liked to make changes like this so that he would look a bit of a genius when they came off. In the AI replay, it made him look somewhat foolish with the way things panned out in the game.

I agree that you cannot say Mayo would have won if Clarke started. For all we know, Clarke would have had a bigger howler than Hennelly! Anyway, this is covering very old ground - I do not think the risk of changing goalkeeper for a high pressure game like an AI final replay came anywhere close to outweighing the benefits that it might bring. That was as clear to me (and many others) before the game as it was afterwards.

I am with you on this but I think we would have won as Dublin got gifted 5/6 points. Anyway some people in Galway also feel Rochford under delivered at Corofin with the team he had.

Oldtree · 08-03-2017 01:32AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yep I don't even feel like going over there and taking "a" piss.

Yep, toilets are awful in the hyde

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Comments