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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #2192
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    cgcsb wrote: »
    You'd be some dose to get the dart to Connolly and get a tram from there to grangegorman via a sharp right turn at Abbey/O'Connell st. Your journey would be much faster if you got off the dart at Tara St and got on the luaus at Westmoreland stop. Made even faster by the proposed new St through the Hawkins house site.

    Best suggestion - that's only a 5 minute walk.

    We'll see how this all beds down come the end of the year.


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    #2193
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    cgcsb wrote: »
    You realise that the Connolly dart platforms are some distance from the luas stop?

    I've already mentioned at least twice on the last couple of pages of this thread that it is a very poor interchange at Connolly, so, yes, I am aware that there is a long walk involved.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    You'd only be slightly longer walking from Tara st to Westmoreland st, its only an extra 3 mins to Tara st if you're coming from the north, its three minutes shorter coming from the south so its much of a muchness. There would be no point increasing peoples journey times with such a service.

    One advantage of Connolly is that the long walk to the LUAS is covered in its entirety, and reasonably obstacle-free. Many people would be happy to do this and fiddle with facebook on the platform while they're waiting for the right tram. Some passengers on Northern line trains might continue to Tara Street, but many might not welcome a 5- to 6-minute obstacle course, with things like traffic lights across busy streets, in the middle of their public transport journey.

    We also haven't considered the wishes of those arriving at Busaras on buses from all directions, for whom the Tara Street idea may not be a useful option.

    One other thing which (as far as I am aware) hasn't been mentioned in relation to this - and a significant reason why cities like Dresden have a large number of routes sharing central sections - is the ability of point-to-point routes to effectively remove large numbers of passengers from choke points in the system.

    For example, people who wish to get from Connolly to Broadstone could get a Connolly - Tallaght/Saggart tram and change at Abbey/O'Connell Street. This group then get involved in negotiating the platform at Abbey Street, crossing at the traffic lights, and getting to the next platform on O'Connell Street, all the while competing with other users.

    If there were a through-tram for this group, they would already have been removed from the various issues involved with interchanging, making the whole thing more manageable.

    But, lxflyer and spacetweek are entirely correct: the decision has been made, the line is almost built and we shall have to see what emerges when passenger movements of the lines in operation are analysed.


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    #2194
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Slightly off topic but I think I read that under the bus lane proposals they are going to allow cars turn left onto O'Connell street and no longer over O'Connell bridge??

    It's a big mistake if they allow this, trams and bus's will be heavily delayed, they really need to re think it. Both left and right turns should be off limits to cars.


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    #2195
    derekbro
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭derekbro


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Slightly off topic but I think I read that under the bus lane proposals they are going to allow cars turn left onto O'Connell street and no longer over O'Connell bridge??

    It's a big mistake if they allow this, trams and bus's will be heavily delayed, they really need to re think it. Both left and right turns should be off limits to cars.

    They are only letting cars turn left onto O'Connell street, no straight on or right turn so the volume of cars should be very little compared to what it is now.


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    #2196
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,585 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    derekbro wrote: »
    They are only letting cars turn left onto O'Connell street, no straight on or right turn so the volume of cars should be very little compared to what it is now.

    That's putting it mildly!


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    #2197
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    derekbro wrote: »
    They are only letting cars turn left onto O'Connell street, no straight on or right turn so the volume of cars should be very little compared to what it is now.

    There will be enough cars to block everything up, trust me everybody can see it coming, there needs to be no cars allowed turn left either.


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    #2198
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Consonata


    If it was possible to pedestrianise O'connell street, it would be wonderful. Have a great promenade, make it more like Grafton street instead of a giant intersection.


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    #2199
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Consonata wrote: »
    If it was possible to pedestrianise O'connell street, it would be wonderful. Have a great promenade, make it more like Grafton street instead of a giant intersection.

    Or just bus/luas. From day one BXD should of been laid on both sides of the street not the mess they have now.


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    #2200
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Consonata wrote: »
    If it was possible to pedestrianise O'connell street, it would be wonderful. Have a great promenade, make it more like Grafton street instead of a giant intersection.

    Probably a bit wide to be entirely pedestrianised.


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    #2201
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Consonata wrote: »
    If it was possible to pedestrianise O'connell street, it would be wonderful. Have a great promenade, make it more like Grafton street instead of a giant intersection.

    But where will the buses go?


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    #2202
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Peregrine wrote: »
    But where will the buses go?

    Maybe divert them down Marlborough street, and make it bus/taxi/Luas only.


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    #2203
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,585 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Peregrine wrote: »
    But where will the buses go?

    It's physically possible to reroute the buses off OCS using Marlborough St and Jervis Street. Very unlikely it'd ever happen, but if private car traffic ever got restricted from these areas, it'd become a lot more feasible.


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    #2204
    Rojomur
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Rojomur


    Just an observation here but wouldnt a new stop on the new phoenix park tunnel line make complete sence where it intersects with the new luas line near broombridge. A short walk from the broombridge luas stop and it would open up the luas network to those passengers earlier than continuing on to Connolly.


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    #2205
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Rojomur wrote: »
    Just an observation here but wouldnt a new stop on the new phoenix park tunnel line make complete sence where it intersects with the new luas line near broombridge. A short walk from the broombridge luas stop and it would open up the luas network to those passengers earlier than continuing on to Connolly.

    It takes shorter for the train to get to Tara Street from there than it takes the Luas to get to College Green. I'd stay on the train!
    MJohnston wrote: »
    It's physically possible to reroute the buses off OCS using Marlborough St and Jervis Street. Very unlikely it'd ever happen, but if private car traffic ever got restricted from these areas, it'd become a lot more feasible.

    I don't know if that's possible without MN and DU, to be honest.


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    #2206
    MICKEYG
    Registered Users Posts: 766 ✭✭✭MICKEYG


    Peregrine wrote: »
    It takes shorter for the train to get to Tara Street from there than it takes the Luas to get to College Green. I'd stay on the train!

    Not everyone is going to city centre. Where transport routes intersect, interchange stations should always be considered.


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    #2207
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,923 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Was there a specific reason as to why cross city was not routed on both sides of OCS and up D'Olier Street to follow the current route outside Trinity?

    I'm sure there was a valid reason, but google is not giving me much info!!


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    #2208
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Was there a specific reason as to why cross city was not routed on both sides of OCS and up D'Olier Street to follow the current route outside Trinity?

    I'm sure there was a valid reason, but google is not giving me much info!!

    To facilitate the turning back of services at Parnell without having to reverse (half of the northbound trams will only go as far as Parnell and then will head back south) and to minimise the impact on the bus network which will continue to carry the lion's share of the passenger numbers on public transport in Dublin.


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    #2209
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,585 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Peregrine wrote: »
    I don't know if that's possible without MN and DU, to be honest.

    Oh it's almost certainly not feasible without both, I'm just saying the theoretical rerouting is available.


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    #2210
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Was there a specific reason as to why cross city was not routed on both sides of OCS and up D'Olier Street to follow the current route outside Trinity?

    I'm sure there was a valid reason, but google is not giving me much info!!

    To facilitate the turning back of services at Parnell without having to reverse (half of the northbound trams will only go as far as Parnell and then will head back south) and to minimise the impact on the bus network which will continue to carry the lion's share of the passenger numbers on public transport in Dublin.

    Still a poor reason, they could of moved the turnback elsewhere.

    Could of easily constructed a Heuston type station towards top of the street...

    Im sure it wasn't the sole reason?


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    #2211
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Still a poor reason, they could of moved the turnback elsewhere.

    Could of easily constructed a Heuston type station towards top of the street...

    Im sure it wasn't the sole reason?

    It was one reason - the main one was to minimise the impact on the bus service.


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    #2212
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,636 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Im really getting works fatigue at this stage. Be fanstastic when its done and everything but if I didnt have to go to the city centre for work at the moment I wouldnt go at all, its in a heap!


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    #2213
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Was there a specific reason as to why cross city was not routed on both sides of OCS and up D'Olier Street to follow the current route outside Trinity?

    I'm sure there was a valid reason, but google is not giving me much info!!
    I think Dublin City Council was recently talking about transport and mentioned about the Luas having a max hourly load of 30 trams per line (15min headway) - also mentioned was both Red/Green Line intersections (at grade) having to cope with a potential of 45 tram movements within an hour. Bringing both Green lines together along O'Connell Street would mean a single junction having to cope with a potential of 60 tram movements a hour - that would be one tram every minute along with pedestrians and buses etc. - all at street level.


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    #2214
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Middle Man wrote: »
    I think Dublin City Council was recently talking about transport and mentioned about the Luas having a max hourly load of 30 trams per line (15min headway) - also mentioned was both Red/Green Line intersections (at grade) having to cope with a potential of 45 tram movements within an hour. Bringing both Green lines together along O'Connell Street would mean a single junction having to cope with a potential of 60 tram movements a hour - that would be one tram every minute along with pedestrians and buses etc. - all at street level.

    Questionable figures as it could easily be timed for 2 Red Line, followed by 2 Green Line, followed by Bus/People before re scheduling. 4 tram movements could of taken place in 2 minutes followed by another 2-3 for bus/people. There are very few single movements today, majority are one in each direction at a time. With peak trams every 5-7 minutes that's around 10 per hour where it's easily 7-8 (one in each direction) now and it would only be doubled to 20 with Green line, an extra 1.5 minute all 4 movements could be completed together.
    _____
    Anyways it's done now but I would seriously urge people to submit feedback against the left turn staying.


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    #2215
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,585 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    The left turn won't remain because of a lack of public support, I mean, DCC actually went further than that in their original traffic plan (basically closing off most of the quays around O'Connell Bridge to private traffic), so they don't need much encouragement. The problem is the left turn is the only remaining route to get to Arnotts car park. I think the rest of that is pretty self-explanatory.


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    #2216
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    MJohnston wrote: »
    The left turn won't remain because of a lack of public support, I mean, DCC actually went further than that in their original traffic plan (basically closing off most of the quays around O'Connell Bridge to private traffic), so they don't need much encouragement. The problem is the left turn is the only remaining route to get to Arnotts car park. I think the rest of that is pretty self-explanatory.

    If it does remain then way around is no turn before 9am and between 4.30-7pm but I really hope DCC do the right thing and get rid.


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    #2217
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    With peak trams every 5-7 minutes that's around 10 per hour where it's easily 7-8 (one in each direction) now and it would only be doubled to 20 with Green line, an extra 1.5 minute all 4 movements could be completed together.
    ??? Lot to take in there.
    There are 20 peak trams per hour on the Red Line at present, I believe there will be 30 per hour on the Green line on the new central section.


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    #2218
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,688 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    spacetweek wrote: »
    ??? Lot to take in there.
    There are 20 peak trams per hour on the Red Line at present, I believe there will be 30 per hour on the Green line on the new central section.

    I an hour at peak times I make it 15-16, each direction, my point still stands.

    60/3 = 20 that's not the case as they operate 3-5 minutes not every 3 minutes. It's closer to 5 minutes from my experience using the line. Usually two are within 3 minutes and then a 4-5 minute gap.

    Reality is they could cross 4 trams on o'connell street, two red followed by two green, would only add 30-60 seconds.


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    #2219
    fionnsci
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭fionnsci


    Slightly off topic but people talking about Connolly luas stop above made me think about a thought I've been having recently so hopefully people won't mind. The Red line trams that pass Connolly station by; do they announce to alight for Connolly station at the Busaras stop? The fear that they might not is distressing me somewhat!

    I'm really hoping there'll be clear, concise mapping and signage between the Marlborough, Abbey St, OCS triangle. I agree that it's no more inconvenient than changing tube lines (with their many escalators and long walks through tunnels) but at least the fact that those stations are singular in their purpose (without road signs, shops, double decker buses blocking your views) means that it's very easy to direct people towards their connection. If a tourist steps off the red line luas at Abbey St and can determine quickly where to walk for the Green Line going north or south then I'll sleep easy that it's a well connected project.


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    #2220
    cormac616
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭cormac616


    They do announce when just before busarus to alight for Connolly station. Really don't think it's gonna be too much of an issue.
    People complaining earlier on the thread about having to change at OCS are being mental imo.

    Also I'm over in Edinburgh again this week; we're lucky we have the luas compared to the trams here. Jesus they are ****e.


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    #2221
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    cormac616 wrote: »
    Also I'm over in Edinburgh again this week; we're lucky we have the luas compared to the trams here. Jesus they are ****e.

    How so?


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