President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

BabyCheeses · 22-02-2017 01:14AM

recedite wrote: »

You'd confidently explain to me that hand grenades are mostly thrown by "people involved in organised crime".
Yes, outside of an actual battlefield, that does tend to be the case.

But which people, and in which areas..

You are curious about details of grenade attacks but you don't look into details for your defense of Trump.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/20/swedish-police-comments-taken-out-of-context-in-film-cited-by-trump

But two police officers interviewed for the broadcast told Dagens Nyeter newspaper on Monday that their interview had been edited and “we were answering completely different questions in the interview”. They described the filmmaker who interviewed them, Ami Horowitz, as “a madman”.

But sure, that's just what he was told, we can't expect the president of the united states to check the information given to him when he struggles to complete a sentence.

Nody · 22-02-2017 08:12AM

Remember how Trump insists no one in his team has spoken to Russians?

the Russian ambassador to the US, Sergey Kislyak, said he had been in frequent contact during the election campaign with Michael Flynn, a senior adviser to Mr Trump who was appointed as the President’s national security adviser before being forced to resign last week over his links to Russia.Ms Kislyak told media he had exchanged text messages with Mr Flynn during the campaign and had spoken to him on the phone and in person, according to the Washington Post.

“It’s something all diplomats do”, he said.

In response, Sarah Sanders, a White House spokeswoman, said: “This is a non-story because to the best of our knowledge, no contacts took place, so it’s hard to make a comment on something that never happened.”

Two days after Mr Trump’s election victory, the Russian deputy foreign minister, Sergei Ryabkov, said his government had been in touch with Mr Trump’s advisers during the campaign.

“I cannot say that all, but a number of them maintained contacts with Russian representatives”, Mr Ryabkov told the Interfax news agency. Mr Trump’s team immediately denied the claims.

I guess Russian government joins the list of fake news sources now along with the CNN; nothing to see here people all Fake News! SAD!

WinnyThePoo · 22-02-2017 08:24AM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

What actually happens is whenever I answer a question, I'm met with several more. I've said plenty of negative things about Trump, I fail to fall into the hysteria of the liberal media.

How's the Russia conspiracy working out?

How's the birth conspiracy working out?.

Last you told me it was being taken seriously in Congress. Any news on that?

listermint · 22-02-2017 08:32AM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I've been to the UK on and off over the last 10 years and I've seen how it's changed. I wasn't surprised at the brexit vote and I wasn't surprised Trump won. I won't be surprised if Len Pen wins and I won't be surprised if Geert Wilders wins, nor will I be surprised when Merkel loses. The blatant suppression of free speech and defending culture in fear of being labeled racist by the left is coming to an end and you can only thank the aggressive nature of the liberal media and spineless politicians for that.

There's no need to bring personal attacks into it citing personal experiences for the moral ground.

So when asked do you know any Muslim people at all you respond with ive been in the UK several times .

I'm sorry it's not a personal attack whichever way you want to shape it.im asking you for direct experience which has shaped your very right wing posts.

Basically you have confirmed what I thought, you have no experience of engaging with anyone of that faith .

Please don't imply that as a personal attack to weasel out of a perfectly valid view on the matter.

weisses · 22-02-2017 08:55AM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I've been to the UK on and off over the last 10 years and I've seen how it's changed. I wasn't surprised at the brexit vote and I wasn't surprised Trump won. I won't be surprised if Len Pen wins and I won't be surprised if Geert Wilders wins, nor will I be surprised when Merkel loses. The blatant suppression of free speech and defending culture in fear of being labeled racist by the left is coming to an end and you can only thank the aggressive nature of the liberal media and spineless politicians for that.

There's no need to bring personal attacks into it citing personal experiences for the moral ground.

The part in bold is exactly what will be enforced when these people ( I only researched Wilders so far) come to power.

Free speech for white god fearing Christians only

You have no clue what you are hoping for here

If there was no free speech in Europe all these politicians would be locked up or dead right now

Harika · 22-02-2017 09:22AM

weisses wrote: »

The part in bold is exactly what will be enforced when these people ( I only researched Wilders so far) come to power.

Free speech for white god fearing Christians only

Same with the Freedom party in Austria, they also want to reduce free speech for enemies of the state. Their supporters cheer, because the lying press can finally be silenced, while blatantly ignoring that the next step is the reduction of free speech for them.
Then you look at the far right in the US and recently the "Milo" incident(s) then you see their tactics, destroying any discussion by trolling and when they are blocked of speaking somewhere, screaming foul.

oscarBravo · 22-02-2017 10:34AM

recedite wrote: »

You'd confidently explain to me that hand grenades are mostly thrown by "people involved in organised crime".
Yes, outside of an actual battlefield, that does tend to be the case.

But which people, and in which areas..

You tell me.

I'm seeing a lot of this strategy from you and others: post something that hints darkly that you know something, but never actually say it out loud. It's almost as if you want to be able to hint at something you believe, but for which you have no evidence, so you can't come out and say it directly without being called on it.

In my experience, if you ask the average Scandinavian to give their gut instinct response to the question "who is responsible for grenade attacks?", the answer you'll most likely get is "biker gangs". Insofar as immigrants are associated with crime, those immigrants tend to be from other EU member states.

demfad · 22-02-2017 10:42AM

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I've been to the UK on and off over the last 10 years and I've seen how it's changed. I wasn't surprised at the brexit vote and I wasn't surprised Trump won. I won't be surprised if Len Pen wins and I won't be surprised if Geert Wilders wins, nor will I be surprised when Merkel loses. The blatant suppression of free speech and defending culture in fear of being labeled racist by the left is coming to an end and you can only thank the aggressive nature of the liberal media and spineless politicians for that.

There's no need to bring personal attacks into it citing personal experiences for the moral ground.

Free speech doesn't mean that you or me can demand any platform for it and it doesn't mean we are immune from the consequences of free speech.

Take Milo Yiannopoulos for example:

He was free to make his comments about paedophilia. But then the staff of Breitbart news were free to threaten to resign if he wasn't fired. So he was fired (resigned).
He still has free speech, but he will now realise he can't demand a platform any more and that free speech can be challenged and there are consequences to what you say.
Milo understands this now. Perhaps you should too?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/21/milo-yiannopoulos-resigns-breitbart-pedophilia-comments

demfad · 22-02-2017 11:34AM

Nody wrote: »

Remember how Trump insists no one in his team has spoken to Russians?
....I guess Russian government joins the list of fake news sources now along with the CNN; nothing to see here people all Fake News! SAD!

http://europe.newsweek.com/why-flynn-russia-affair-troubling-trump-559132?rm=eu

Excellent article here on the technicalities, legalities and procedures around how the transcript of the Flynn call was dealt with.

It also illustrates why this wont going away, with extremely serious questions outstanding for Trump and Pence which will have to be answered sooner or later. As Flynn lied to the FBI he may be persuaded to give information in exchange for a deal.

In potentially related news Austria has granted Ukranian oligarch Dimitri Firtash extradition to the U.S. (all eyes on Jeff Sessions AG ;-))
Firtash has serious links with Paul Manafort. Manafort is former Trump campaign manager under investigation by the FBI as part of Trump/Russia ties.
Firtash was purportedly involved in funnelling $12 billion dollars to Manafort for help getting former Ukranian president and Putin puppet Yanukovych elected. (He was ousted in the Maidan revolution in Kiev 2014)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/austria-grants-us-request-to-extradite-ukrainian-mogul-dmytro-firtash

Another Russian with a connection to Donald Trump or the Steele dossier has been found dead. Vitaly Churkin fell ill on Monday and died.
Churkin was the first person to bring Trump to Moscow back in 1986.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article133992264.html

Anyone notice Trump not looking too healthy recently?

demfad · 22-02-2017 12:16PM

Incase you're wondering where the anti-climate change, anti-big Government, anti-lgbt, anti-feminism, anti-semite, White Christian superiority, patriarcal nationalism etc. is coming from meet the Council for National Policy. Co-Set up by Richard DeVos (father in law to Betsy DeVos) this organisation advocates white Christian domination in all walks of US life including business, government, media. If you read through you will see some of the really 'out there' and nasty organisations and individuals that this umbrella group covers. There is a membership list from 2014 inside.

Familiar members will be Steve Bannon (tea party leader), KellyAnne Conway (on executive board of CNP), Dave Bossie (Trump vice campaign manager and took Citizens United case backed by Bannon/Mercer that allowed big donors back into political arena). The CNP controls a massive swath of votes from 'ordinary' evangelical Christians to the far right.

Bannon, Conway, Bossie, Mercer went with dominionist Ted Cruz as their religious Statist guy. They switched to Trump as a vehicle to get their people in. As Rebecah Mercer was more or less in charge of most of the transition picks the nominations are deep with CNP people. Mercers man Jeff Sessions has previously said no secular should be in cabinet.

Best to look at Trumps admin as a CNP admin with a few nominees to reflect Putins requirements from Trump and Trumps Kleptocracy.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/05/17/council-national-policy-behind-curtain

MightyMandarin · 22-02-2017 12:30PM

Anyone hear about the tough times Republican Rep.'s and Senators are getting at town halls?

It even prompted Donald to tweet this:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/834181712783560705?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Just getting away from his point that these are all organised is certainly contestable, let's assume they are all organised by 'liberal activists'. Were these guys not organised by 'conservative activists' in '09? What makes political activism bad if it's organised? Let's not forget that the Tea Party movement was anything but 'grassroots' and had Koch Brothers' money sprayed all over it.

6a00d8341c511153ef01156f2a47c0970c-pi

I couldn't help but laugh at this poster at one of McConnell's protests though...

I hate McConnell as much as anyone, but McConnell a Communist? Seriously?

Mr.Micro · 22-02-2017 12:36PM

demfad wrote: »

http://europe.newsweek.com/why-flynn-russia-affair-troubling-trump-559132?rm=eu

Excellent article here on the technicalities, legalities and procedures around how the transcript of the Flynn call was dealt with.

It also illustrates why this wont going away, with extremely serious questions outstanding for Trump and Pence which will have to be answered sooner or later. As Flynn lied to the FBI he may be persuaded to give information in exchange for a deal.

In potentially related news Austria has granted Ukranian oligarch Dimitri Firtash extradition to the U.S. (all eyes on Jeff Sessions AG ;-))
Firtash has serious links with Paul Manafort. Manafort is former Trump campaign manager under investigation by the FBI as part of Trump/Russia ties.
Firtash was purportedly involved in funnelling $12 billion dollars to Manafort for help getting former Ukranian president and Putin puppet Yanukovych elected. (He was ousted in the Maidan revolution in Kiev 2014)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/austria-grants-us-request-to-extradite-ukrainian-mogul-dmytro-firtash

Another Russian with a connection to Donald Trump or the Steele dossier has been found dead. Vitaly Churkin fell ill on Monday and died.
Churkin was the first person to bring Trump to Moscow back in 1986.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article133992264.html

Anyone notice Trump not looking too healthy recently?

Telling all those lies is a full time job. He looked corpulent from the start, a life of excess. His tenure so far is an absolute shambles, unprecedented. He is destroying the reputation of the US and is intent on taking away free speech, democracy and decent humanity. Whatever problems the US has, Trump is not the answer...

Peregrinus · 22-02-2017 12:37PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

You tell me.

I'm seeing a lot of this strategy from you and others: post something that hints darkly that you know something, but never actually say it out loud.

It's a standard ploy from the Trumpish playbook, along with "many people are saying that . . ." as a way of suggesting something without taking any responsibility for it. And of course there's "crooked media won't print story that . . ." which looks like an implication that the story is true or has merit, but could equally be explained by the story being a load of b@lls.

It's the political equivalent of "You won't believe what happened next!" clickbait. Yeah, you're right, because I'm not going to click through, so I'll never find out, so I won't believe it.

Guys, if you want to tell us whose throwing grenades, grow a pair and tell us. Otherwise, stop embarrassing yourselves.

robinph · 22-02-2017 12:51PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's a standard ploy from the Trumpish playbook, along with "many people are saying that . . ." as a way of suggesting something without taking any responsibility for it. And of course there's "crooked media won't print story that . . ." which looks like an implication that the story is true or has merit, but could equally be explained by the story being a load of b@lls.

It's the political equivalent of "You won't believe what happened next!" clickbait. Yeah, you're right, because I'm not going to click through, so I'll never find out, so I won't believe it.

Guys, if you want to tell us whose throwing grenades, grow a pair and tell us. Otherwise, stop embarrassing yourselves.

...or "so called angry crowds".

Nope they are genuinely angry, and a crowd. There is nothing "so called" about them, just Trump trying to use language against them and make them out to not have valid concerns. Not the way to be "precidentedtial".

demfad · 22-02-2017 12:51PM

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I hate McConnell as much as anyone, but McConnell a Communist? Seriously?

They are not calling him a communist they are using words that trigger a connection to Russian in the American psyche.

Peregrinus · 22-02-2017 01:43PM

robinph wrote: »

...or "so called angry crowds".

Nope they are genuinely angry, and a crowd. There is nothing "so called" about them, just Trump trying to use language against them and make them out to not have valid concerns. Not the way to be "precidentedtial".

"So-called" is one of the phrases that Trump uses in a way that suggests he doesn't actually know what it means. The judge who ruled against him on the Executive Order, for instance, he described as a "so-called" judge.

No, Donald, he is actually a judge. Likewise, the "so-called Russian hacking" was actually Russian hacking, as Trump himself has conceded. The "so-called climate change" is actually a change in the climate. And the "so called Commission on Presidential Debates" really is called the Commission on Presidential Debates.

I'd say that this phrase doesn't mean what he thinks it means, except that I'm not sure what he thinks it means.

Leroy42 · 22-02-2017 02:12PM

Oh I think you are giving him far too much leeway there. He knows precisely what it means, and more to the point what people take it to mean.

It is a way to denigrate the subject. So called judge, so called commission, so called Russian Hacking is stating that it might be what others call it but it is clearly wrong and should be called something else.

Professor Moriarty · 22-02-2017 02:16PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

"So-called" is one of the phrases that Trump uses in a way that suggests he doesn't actually know what it means. The judge who ruled against him on the Executive Order, for instance, he described as a "so-called" judge.

No, Donald, he is actually a judge. Likewise, the "so-called Russian hacking" was actually Russian hacking, as Trump himself has conceded. The "so-called climate change" is actually a change in the climate. And the "so called Commission on Presidential Debates" really is called the Commission on Presidential Debates.

I'd say that this phrase doesn't mean what he thinks it means, except that I'm not sure what he thinks it means.

The Donald quotes the New York Post. Of course.

Zubeneschamali · 22-02-2017 02:16PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'd say that this phrase doesn't mean what he thinks it means, except that I'm not sure what he thinks it means.

So-called turkey sandwich, not good, won't pay, send back. Sad!

demfad · 22-02-2017 02:23PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

"So-called" is one of the phrases that Trump uses in a way that suggests he doesn't actually know what it means....

Bannon knows how to use it properly!

robinph · 22-02-2017 02:31PM

demfad wrote: »

Bannon knows how to use it properly!

Should that not be So Called Ruler Of The United Merica?

Leroy42 · 22-02-2017 02:42PM

Trump will make a very interesting case study.

W Bush clearly got his shot at POTUS due to his family connections. Obama undoubtedly had charisma, a great ability to deliver emotionally connecting speeches.

I'm not really sure what Trump brings. I know he says the right things (the right things in terms of what his voters want to hear) and he was up against a lousy adversary, but even putting aside the US elections, it is strange that a man that seems so limited in all aspects - language, leadership, charisma, empathy, education, knowledge, attention to detail, ability to bring people together - has led such an apparently successful life.

There doesn't seem, to me at least, to be anything out of the ordinary about him (I deliberately did not use extraordinary as he is so far from that level) and yet here he is. Only the 45th person (well 44th depending on how you count Grover Cleveland) to ever have that office. That is a massive achievement. I don't it

Amerika · 22-02-2017 02:48PM

Trump is right. Many of the so-called angry crowds, in numerous cases, are planned out by liberal activists, with the the primary intent of disrupting the town hall meetings... As is their right to do so. As long as the speaker is allowed to speak and is treated fairly and with respect, I see nothing wrong with it. But if the crowds continue to be abusive then they only have themselves to blame when politicians stop having open town hall meetings and only speak to organizations with invitation only audiences... as is their right to do so, also.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/democrats-town-halls-chaffetz/

Zubeneschamali · 22-02-2017 02:53PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

it is strange that a man that seems so limited in all aspects - language, leadership, charisma, empathy, education, knowledge, attention to detail, ability to bring people together - has led such an apparently successful life.

He has several of the key qualifications to be a yuge success in America: he was born rich and white, and he has no scruples and no shame.

But he is obviously compensating for a yuge inferiority complex - the family money came from casinos and brothels, he was born in New Jersey, not New York, and the real rich, the old money folks in Manhattan, have always treated him as the jumped-up orange vulgarian he is.

He so, so hoped that being President would get him the respect he thinks he has been unfairly deprived of all his life, and instead it has exposed him to an order of magnitude more contempt.

Zubeneschamali · 22-02-2017 02:55PM

Amerika wrote: »

if the crowds continue to be abusive then they only have themselves to blame when politicians stop having open town hall meetings and only speak to organizations with invitation only audiences... as is their right to do so, also.

Yes, and then the representatives will have only themselves to blame when their constituents throw them out on their ears for ignoring the people they work for.

26000 Elephants · 22-02-2017 02:57PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

You tell me. [..]

I'm seeing a lot of this strategy from you and others: post something that hints darkly that you know something, but never actually say it out loud. It's almost as if you want to be able to hint at something you believe, but for which you have no evidence, so you can't come out and say it directly without being called on it.

.

I think that, at some conscious level, he is too ashamed to actually come out and clearly say what he really believes.

And if its not shame, then its a certain knowledge that their views are contrary to law in most countries.

Christy42 · 22-02-2017 03:27PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He has several of the key qualifications to be a yuge success in America: he was born rich and white, and he has no scruples and no shame.

But he is obviously compensating for a yuge inferiority complex - the family money came from casinos and brothels, he was born in New Jersey, not New York, and the real rich, the old money folks in Manhattan, have always treated him as the jumped-up orange vulgarian he is.

He so, so hoped that being President would get him the respect he thinks he has been unfairly deprived of all his life, and instead it has exposed him to an order of magnitude more contempt.

The no shame is connected to his confidence. If I made a mistake on say my electoral victory like Trump you would instantly see the shame and guilt that I had made such an idiotic mistake/hadn't checked for myself. With him he brushed it off as nothing important, as if he had not been wrong. It is a great ability for a salesman and he is a good salesman. The ability to act as if you were always right even when all evidence shows otherwise is impressive and rare. Useless for running a country but great for an election.

Combine this with being born rich (if anyone needed evidence that being born rich is a massive advantage here it is) and a like of partying with the movers and shakers and you get Trump.

26000 Elephants · 22-02-2017 03:34PM

demfad wrote: »

They are not calling him a communist they are using words that trigger a connection to Russian in the American psyche.

I quietly chuckled at that one too. :cool:

I see Betsy Devos's brother Erik is another allumni of the NCP. Erik is of course famous for this 'misunderstanding' in Baghdad a few years ago.

Amerika · 22-02-2017 03:38PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, and then the representatives will have only themselves to blame when their constituents throw them out on their ears for ignoring the people they work for.

Yes, it’s possible. But more possible, IMO, is that voters will realize that the hateful leftist activist’s goal is merely to shut down the GOP’s attempts to help their constituents, which will in turn only increase Republican numbers across the spectrum.

Leroy42 · 22-02-2017 03:41PM

Amerika, why do you call them hateful? These are simply people with a different idealogical viewpoint that yours. Hardly a reason to deem them all hateful.

President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

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