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The Grass Measuring Thread

12467…19

Comments

  • #92
    GrasstoMilk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Dung your biggest asset for that I take it?
    A lot of rain again the last few days so nothing out yet. Will have no problem getting thru ground once out but would like to get cows out as cubicle space tightening up and get a few paddocks into gear. Ground u had hoped to get slurry on was too wet when pipe came so will go with 2 bags 18 6 12 there once conditions allow

    Yeah definitly. made grazing in spring trickier because topsoil is so loose after all the work the worms are doing


  • #93
    Mooooo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,577 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    GrasstoMilk wrote: »
    Yeah definitly. made grazing in spring trickier because topsoil is so loose after all the work the worms are doing

    Did ye Plough in much of it.? Contractor reckons spreading in winter and leaving on top gives best results


  • #94
    GrasstoMilk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Did ye Plough in much of it.? Contractor reckons spreading in winter and leaving on top gives best results

    Yeah all ploughed back when we started first but it was all stubble and all wore out so wouldn't have made much difference if we didn't plough.
    Did first but if ploughing last year for a long time and we turned all the p and k down. Top of index 1 when tested, it was mid index 2 at last test 2 years ago, likely it was up in 3 what we ploughed down


  • #95
    Timmaay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    I got ambushed by midgets this evening up on the tractor. In the middle of February. Based on that one fact I'm going to estimate a growth rate of 25 for this week ha. Which won't help my already Sky high afc.


  • #96
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    GrasstoMilk wrote: »
    Yeah definitly. made grazing in spring trickier because topsoil is so loose after all the work the worms are doing

    Bit off topic - but I hope ye wont mind... ;)

    I am jealous of your pic Grass ;)

    Any recommendations on how to improve grassland with poor P&K indexes (esp poor P), without dung... :confused:

    I don't have access dung, plus the ground doesn't lend it self to machinery...


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  • #97
    GrasstoMilk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭GrasstoMilk


    Username John wrote: »
    Bit off topic - but I hope ye wont mind... ;)

    I am jealous of your pic Grass ;)

    Any recommendations on how to improve grassland with poor P&K indexes (esp poor P), without dung... :confused:

    I don't have access dung, plus the ground doesn't lend it self to machinery...

    Chemical fert is the only thing you can use. Not an awful lot of P in dung but it's a fantastic soil conditioner.
    What's your lime like?


  • #98
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    GrasstoMilk wrote: »
    Chemical fert is the only thing you can use. Not an awful lot of P in dung but it's a fantastic soil conditioner.
    What's your lime like?

    From ok-ish (6.3) to very bad (5.2)

    So lime is on the to do list this year... put some out the past 2 years, but some fields are still badly in need...

    Then chemical P, as budget allows.
    Prob be a mix of 10-10-20 and 0-16-0 - dependant on grass demand...


  • #99
    Muckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    freedominacup wrote: »
    I'd love to see a measure of the quality of those protein results.

    Is PDI a better measure than crude protein?


  • #100
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Username John wrote: »
    From ok-ish (6.3) to very bad (5.2)

    So lime is on the to do list this year... put some out the past 2 years, but some fields are still badly in need...

    Then chemical P, as budget allows.
    Prob be a mix of 10-10-20 and 0-16-0 - dependant on grass demand...

    Is there much supply of products like Fibrophos(burnt chicken ****) available in bulk over there?


  • #101
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Muckit wrote: »
    Is PDI a better measure than crude protein?

    What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.


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  • #102
    charolais0153
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    freedominacup wrote: »
    What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

    He's talking about the French system i d say. Pdie etc


  • #103
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    freedominacup wrote: »
    What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

    From the french system. Either energy or nitrogen is going to limit total protein so calculates a figure based on each with the lowest value taken. Biggest problem with it is it doesn't take into account the degradabilty rates/rumen passage. If you feed something like soy meal it will be slowly degraded and probably hang around a reasonable lenght of time in the rumen and will fit the value well. But when feeding very high protein grass you will have much more soluble rapidly degradable protein that will lead to large amounts being destroyed or passed as ammonia to stomach and can lead to the strange situation where your milk ureas are high but cows are short of protein.
    The cornell system used in america will show up different protein types/solubilities better but still falls down in the area of rumen passage rates which will be much higher and variable on grass diets compared to tmr.


  • #104
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    Is there much supply of products like Fibrophos(burnt chicken ****) available in bulk over there?

    Not to my knowledge Waffle... but I wouldn't be super knowledge in this area...

    Also - bulk wouldn't really apply to me. I think I'd be classed as a 'good lifer' in your neck of the woods? (Is that the right term?) ;):)


  • #105
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Username John wrote: »
    Not to my knowledge Waffle... but I wouldn't be super knowledge in this area...

    Also - bulk wouldn't really apply to me. I think I'd be classed as a 'good lifer' in your neck of the woods? (Is that the right term?) ;):)

    I mean it's a bulky thing like lime spread in tons not kg! but packed full of goodness, stinks a bit though. It's chicken shyte that's been burnt for heat/power in a power station and then ash is sold on.


  • #106
    Muckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    freedominacup wrote: »
    What's PDI? Almost every other measure of protein is better than cp. Digestible cp for starters, rumen degradable protein at minimum. The further down the digestive system a protein is digested the better the quality and the bigger the return.

    Only learning about it myself. A small bit in green cert book but more info here. It's essentially what you are saying:

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.aurivo.ie/wp-content/themes/aurivo/documents/net-energy-system.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjTyPnovZrSAhVJCMAKHXdaDz8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNEw_6BrqgplPcM6riErU_p4pztg6w


  • #107
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    I mean it's a bulky thing like lime spread in tons not kg! but packed full of goodness, stinks a bit though. It's chicken shyte that's been burnt for heat/power in a power station and then ash is sold on.

    This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

    http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html


  • #108
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Username John wrote: »
    This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

    http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

    The chicken manure ash stuff must be here. The process was developed in Limerick.

    I heard a bit about this on Radio 1's Countrywide this morning.

    https://fora.ie/bhsl-funding-3232447-Feb2017/


  • #109
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    Username John wrote: »
    This seems to be the only thing I could find which is similiar - but this is slag, which isn't really what you describe above...

    http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

    Username John you had the burned poultry litter on that same website.
    It's called Fibrophos.

    http://www.fibrophos.co.uk/


  • #110
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Just noticed your issue is P, Can you get DAP fertiiliser put it on ?... Pricie but big p and n load.


  • #111
    Username John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    Just noticed your issue is P, Can you get DAP fertiiliser put it on ?... Pricie but big p and n load.

    Cheers for that Waffle... DAP is new to me as well. Again, not sure where you source that over here?

    I am liking the look of that slag - it has both P and pH - which is what I need rather than P and N... (must find out price)

    Anyone any experience of it?

    http://www.precisionagireland.ie/Super_Slag_Basic.html

    *Pedigree6* - yeah, I see the fibrophos link on their page too... thanks (not sure how I managed to miss the BIG logo, but sure there you) ;):(


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  • #112
    Mooooo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,577 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Maize starter fertilisers would be similar, I think. Dunno if you can get it with the high p here


  • #113
    Jacquesdalad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭Jacquesdalad


    DAP (Diammonium phosphate) is 18N-46K. Commonly used as maize/osr/soya starter. Combined seeded.

    MOP (Muriate of Potash/Potassium Chloride) is 50%P - 46%CL.


  • #114
    Mooooo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,577 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    Jacquesdalad wrote: »
    DAP (Diammonium phosphate) is 18N-46P. Commonly used as maize/osr/soya starter. Combined seeded.

    MOP (Muriate of Potash/Potassium Chloride) is 50%P - 46%CL.

    Your confused there potash is K, potassium. Sulfate of Potash is a better product in that regard but harder to get


  • #115
    Jacquesdalad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭Jacquesdalad


    Mooooo wrote: »
    Your confused there potash is K, potassium. Sulfate of Potash is a better product in that regard but harder to get

    Sorry typo.

    MOP used to be widely available years ago but hard to spread as very dusty.
    Great product.


  • #116
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Username John wrote: »
    Cheers for that Waffle... DAP is new to me as well. Again, not sure where you source that over here?

    There is another few products, Triple super phosphate or Tsp which is crap as lots will be locked up instantly. SingleSuperPhosphate is another.
    Map and Mop would be another 2 options and probably what is used to make up the blends available.


  • #117
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    From the french system. Either energy or nitrogen is going to limit total protein so calculates a figure based on each with the lowest value taken. Biggest problem with it is it doesn't take into account the degradabilty rates/rumen passage. If you feed something like soy meal it will be slowly degraded and probably hang around a reasonable lenght of time in the rumen and will fit the value well. But when feeding very high protein grass you will have much more soluble rapidly degradable protein that will lead to large amounts being destroyed or passed as ammonia to stomach and can lead to the strange situation where your milk ureas are high but cows are short of protein.
    The cornell system used in america will show up different protein types/solubilities better but still falls down in the area of rumen passage rates which will be much higher and variable on grass diets compared to tmr.
    Checked this up just now. The undegradable protein in grass should be roughly 2% constant with the degradable content making up the rest, as cp% in grass is increased that should shift the balance a more towards non protein nitrogen (will become ammonia as soon as it hits the rumen) and I don't think this can be used with any real efficiency as its going to overload the system straight off and be pissed away.
    The pdi system assumes all degradable n can be used with 90% efficiency so this will overrate grass's contribution. For grass around 20% cp cows on meal I'd say 80% is even on the optimistic side but that would probably drop to 55-60% as the total cp starts heading towards 30%.
    So if you got a cp% of say 25, minus 2 to allow for the undegradable protein, multiply 23 by 0.64 and by whatever efficiency you recon based on conditions/cow performance, then add back your 2 and that should give a much more realistic pdin value to work off when deciding on meal protein %.

    Edit to say that whatever values are on meal shouldn't really have to be altered


  • #118
    Muckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    My brain just self combusted


  • #119
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Muckit wrote: »
    My brain just self combusted

    Ha ya'd know I've fck all to be at today☺

    But take that 27%cp mentioned. The official pdin would be 164g/kg but modifying it as above would give you about 120g/kg. Over 15 kg of grass that would be equal to about a kg of soymeal in the difference


  • #120
    Jacquesdalad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15 ✭Jacquesdalad


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    Ha ya'd know I've fck all to be at today☺

    But take that 27%cp mentioned. The official pdin would be 164g/kg but modifying it as above would give you about 120g/kg. Over 15 kg of grass that would be equal to about a kg of soymeal in the difference

    So could it be assumed that high protein grass should be restricted for the most efficient use? On/off grazing or as a part of a tmr?


    :)


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  • #121
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Jacquesdalad wrote: »
    So could it be assumed that high protein grass should be restricted for the most efficient use? On/off grazing or as a part of a tmr?


    :)

    Don't know really. If all you were after was maximum efficiency of nitrogen it probably would but that might'nt make economic sense. I think its more just something to be aware of so that you don't cut out the protein in meal too much through the summer.
    If a fella had loads of cheap maize to use up could be different again...


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