Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

maryishere · 20-01-2017 01:23AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was only the UK and US domination/connivance that stopped Winston from facing war crime charges for Dresden.

Rubbish, he got a Nobel prize some years after the war, he far far from seen as any type of criminal. German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres...as someone else said, the Germans were the ones who invented terror bombing, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

Jimoslimos · 20-01-2017 01:42AM

maryishere wrote: »

Rubbish, he got a Nobel prize some years after the war, he far far from seen as any type of criminal. German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres...as someone else said, the Germans were the ones who invented terror bombing, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

ISIS are going around beheading anyone who gets in their way, does this mean that we should apply the same principles?

Just a simple yes or no will suffice Mary, no waffling please.

smurgen · 20-01-2017 01:47AM

maryishere wrote: »

lol. It is you who is all over the place. You asked about Switzerland in WW2. I have answered all of your questions but you have not answered any of mine.

No, fighting the Nazis in WW2 was not "Imperialist intervention". And in more recent times western countries like the US, UK, and the loads of other countries that helped liberate Kuwait from its Iraqi invasion in 1990 did want to secure and stabilize oil supplies from the middle east region, and not let the then 4th biggest army in the world ( Iraq) get away with invading small but oil rich Kuwait. Thats how the world works. And you have had the benefit of living in this western world, thanks to the efforts of the US and UK in WW2, the cold war, and their efforts in winning back Kuwait (with the help of French, Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians, and several other national contingents..we were missing as usual...not that we would have been much help). They are not perfect but thank God someone was willing to fight for us anyway, and western democracy.

You don't get what i'm saying at all.you're saying that aggressive military intervention is the only way. I believe the U.N could be a mechanism to solve international conflicts effectively if it was engaged in a non cynical manner by world powers.of course the U.S and U.K would find it hard to profiteer from such an organisation.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 01:51AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

ISIS are going around beheading anyone who gets in their way, does this mean that we should apply the same principles?

Just a simple yes or no will suffice Mary, no waffling please.

7 minutes that underline Churchill's abject disregard for humanity. Exactly the same thing he did in Bengal, knowingly put innocents to death by action or inaction and then try to distance himself. Ably assisted by sycophantic people ever since. The most ardent being some Irish people. Tragic. But like every other atrocity Britain has visited here and in the world, the truth will out. Small wonder talk of Bloody Sunday is routinely shut down as 'boring history'. Is there anymore classic defence of the realm?
http://ww2history.com/videos/Western/The_bombing_of_Dresden/

20-01-2017 01:53AM

maryishere wrote: »

German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres...as someone else said, the Germans were the ones who invented terror bombing, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

So if your opponent does something repugnant its ok to repeat (as well as justify) the tactic on the basis of saying "but the enemy has used the same methods already". Exactly how you gave the obtuse nod to colonialism earlier.......

maryishere · 20-01-2017 01:55AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

ISIS are going around beheading anyone who gets in their way, .

No they are not, they are only beheading certain people. Not all infidels.
I explained about Dresden (seeing as you ask, to you want to cherry pick the worst UK/US atrocity of WW2 ) ) in post 1264 already.
" it was 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF). I guess they justified it as the Nazis had bombed cities like Coventry first, and years before hand. A post war report defended the operation "as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.". Perhaps it shortened the war a bit. It certainly demoralised Germany at the time, and many of their troops. Still very sad."

You mention killing ISIS men who behead people. In certain circumstances capital punishment of terrorists has worked in the past. Look at our own DeValera , who hung some IRA men in jail in his time (early forties as far as I remember). Do you think if Thatcher in the eighies had killed some IRA men in jail - or had been as brutal on IRA prisoners as DeValera had been - would have IRA activity have reduced like it did in WW2? Or if Western powers hung Isis would it stop them? I doubt it, as it would only make martyrs out of them.

maryishere · 20-01-2017 01:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So if your opponent does something repugnant its ok to repeat (as well as justify) the tactic .

Correct, if it shortens the war.
If one side used gas, the other would have too.

maryishere · 20-01-2017 02:05AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

7 minutes that underline Churchill's abject disregard for humanity.

Actually by leading the country which stood alone against Nazism in Europe in 1940, many would be of the opinion he saved humanity. Fact.
Of course you will have your own propoganda.

Incidentally, do you think DeValera ( or Devil Era as some called him ! ) was right to hang some convicted IRA ? You are aware some IRA died in Irish prisons under DeValera?

maryishere · 20-01-2017 02:09AM

smurgen wrote: »

I believe the U.N could be a mechanism to solve international conflicts effectively if ....

if if if. If ithe UN organization was not ineffective, wasteful, corrupt, or biased, maybe it could.

Still, its ideals in the past were not all bad. Did you know, according to the Irish Independent, Ireland applied but was not allowed to join the United Nations when it was formed in 1946 because the country had not supported the Allied cause in the Second World War. Joining the UN involved a commitment to using force to deter aggression by one state against another if the UN so decided. It was not considered that a country that had abstained from opposing Hitler would meet that requirement. When Paddy Hillery did go to the United Nations in 1969 to ask for a United Nations' peacekeeping force for Northern Ireland, they laughed at him. Proper order.

20-01-2017 02:11AM

maryishere wrote: »

Correct, if it shortens the war.
If one side used gas, the other would have too.

Following your argument to its inevitable conclusion, the two sides that mimicked each other like that would be morally indistinguishable. One could reach that conclusion already studying your observations re colonialism.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 02:12AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So if your opponent does something repugnant its ok to repeat (as well as justify) the tactic on the basis of saying "but the enemy has used the same methods already". Exactly how you gave the obtuse nod to colonialism earlier.......

The pomposity and arrogance to lecture anyone on morals knows no bounds it seems. If what Britain did to the world was returned to them there would be nothing left on the island.
What most people want, is some decent humility, but what we get is more arrogance. Brexit is already showing them that the world doesn't doff the hat any more, save for a few saddos who have literally no home of their own.

Jawgap · 20-01-2017 06:59AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Funny that, I do similar. I find most young people very politically astute and aware.

Again, perhaps read what's written?

I never said they were not politically aware. I said the nonsense that gets trotted out about NI is history to the under 30s, not politics.

Good to be posting with a fellow lecturer - quite the coincidence that every time you ask me about something it turns out you do something similar

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 09:44AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, perhaps read what's written?

I never said they were not politically aware. I said the nonsense that gets trotted out about NI is history to the under 30s, not politics.

Good to be posting with a fellow lecturer - quite the coincidence that every time you ask me about something it turns out you do something similar

You are not that unusual? And I don't 'lecture' anyone.

Nor would I be arrogant enough to speak for all young men who join foreign armies or for all people under 30 or under 25 for that matter. McGuinness is a current politician, and his retirement is of 'political' interest to anyone who is interested in politics.

And speaking of events of the past being irrelevant to the young, this is the morning after Boris Johnson used the Nazi treatment of the French in a 'quip' to Francois Hollande. And David Davis channeled the 'magnificence' of Britain in it's 'darkest hour' too. History is not politics, indeed.

Jawgap · 20-01-2017 10:11AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are not that unusual? And I don't 'lecture' anyone.

Nor would I be arrogant enough to speak for all young men who join foreign armies or for all people under 30 or under 25 for that matter. McGuinness is a current politician, and his retirement is of 'political' interest to anyone who is interested in politics.

And speaking of events of the past being irrelevant to the young, this is the morning after Boris Johnson used the Nazi treatment of the French in a 'quip' to Francois Hollande. And David Davis channeled the 'magnificence' of Britain in it's 'darkest hour' too. History is not politics, indeed.

oh right.....

.....it's just when I posted

Jawgap wrote: »

Quite a few actually.

Between coaching sport, and part-time lecturing.

I know they see me as an old fart with bad jokes and a quaint insistence on proper grammar, so I can only imagine what they think of how relevant someone like McGuinness is.

....and you posted.....

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Funny that, I do similar. I find most young people very politically astute and aware.

I thought you were referring to my post which you quoted.

And yes, I am arrogant but I don't "....speak for all young men who join foreign armies or for all people under 30 or under 25 for that matter." - I just relayed what decades of research have shown.

You lads (not much data yet on young lasses as they are only being integrated into frontline combat roles in volunteer armies) join armies for various reasons, which are rarely linked to ideas of 'queen and country' and are not dissuaded by probability or injury stats, or ancient history.

maryishere · 20-01-2017 10:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Following your argument to its inevitable conclusion, the two sides that mimicked each other like that would be morally indistinguishable.

They were morally distinguishable because the Nazi side used extermination camps to kill millions, they used slave labour etc. I do not know if you read the bit "A post war report defended the operation "as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.". Perhaps it shortened the war .."

Both sides could have used gas in the second world war but they did not, because if one side did, they knew there would be retaliation from the other side. In the cold war, both sides had nuclear weapons, but neither side used them, because they knew if one did the other would too. If you think that makes sides
" morally indistinguishable", dream on.

maryishere · 20-01-2017 10:20AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The pomposity and arrogance to lecture anyone on morals knows no bounds it seems.

Nobody is lecturing anyone, except perhaps you.
Now, please answer at least one of the questions you have been asked: Do you think DeValera was right to hang some convicted IRA, as he did ? You are aware some IRA died in Irish prisons under DeValera?

Fratton Fred · 20-01-2017 10:24AM

smurgen wrote: »

You don't get what i'm saying at all.you're saying that aggressive military intervention is the only way. I believe the U.N could be a mechanism to solve international conflicts effectively if it was engaged in a non cynical manner by world powers.of course the U.S and U.K would find it hard to profiteer from such an organisation.

so, for example, rather than invade Afghanistan, the UN should have spent money building new infrastructure, power stations, roads etc. Helping to build schools so that education could become available to those whom it previously wasn't. That kind of thing?

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 10:40AM

Jawgap wrote: »

oh right.....

.....it's just when I posted

....and you posted.....
I thought you were referring to my post which you quoted.

And I was.
I do do something 'similar'.
I coach GAA and Soccer and I also teach, I do not lecture. I also have a business that is winding down.

And yes, I am arrogant but I don't "....speak for all young men who join foreign armies or for all people under 30 or under 25 for that matter." - I just relayed what decades of research have shown.

You lads (not much data yet on young lasses as they are only being integrated into frontline combat roles in volunteer armies) join armies for various reasons, which are rarely linked to ideas of 'queen and country' and are not dissuaded by probability or injury stats, or ancient history.

Yes, you told us all about the young fellas who go join foreign armies to fight with mates they haven't made yet. Clearly that is the primary motivation alright

But as I said, we actively dissuade young people from doing things that have a probability of harming them and I think a public debate about joining foreign armies, from a personal safety and a moral stance, would be healthy for them to hear.
The switch boards of RTE wouldn't be long lighting up if young people started joining ISIS for instance, just because they offered great equipment, and an exotic lifestyle. ISIS might be a bit extreme, but I am sure you get the point. This activity (joining foreign armies) is only acceptable to some because they deem the armies of choice of being on the 'right side'>
Look at the shrill opprobrium heaped on a single Irish man here who dared to capitalise on the Nazis during WW2.

Jawgap · 20-01-2017 10:47AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And I was.
I do do something 'similar'.
I coach GAA and Soccer and I also teach, I do not lecture. I also have a business that is winding down.

Incroyable!!

You know there was guy once who also used to say he'd done a lot of what I'd done......and funny enough only ever revealed those things after I revealed them.....he even had some of the same archival material I had.....sometimes it's just crazy how the world works......

......and he wasn't a Shinner, despite spending hours and hours and hours on here defending them against all comers......

.....he also had a business.....I think he was involved in re-treading or something similar......

.....quite remarkable really.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 10:48AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so, for example, rather than invade Afghanistan, the UN should have spent money building new infrastructure, power stations, roads etc. Helping to build schools so that education could become available to those whom it previously wasn't. That kind of thing?

I think it is akin to church missionary aid of old - we will help you in return for your soul.

The UN will help if the country aligns with the interests of the UN.
The interests of the UN have unfortunately become the 'interests' of the top 5 world powers who control it.
The power plays between those 5 comes before the interests of anyone else on the planet.
That is essentially the problem with the UN.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 10:50AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Incroyable!!

You know there was guy once who also used to say he'd done a lot of what I'd done......and funny enough only ever revealed those things after I revealed them.....he even had some of the same archival material I had.....sometimes it's just crazy how the world works......

......and he wasn't a Shinner, despite spending hours and hours and hours on here defending them against all comers......

.....he also had a business.....I think he was involved in re-treading or something similar......

.....quite remarkable really.

Ah right, we have reached that point again. :rolleyes:

Jawgap · 20-01-2017 10:58AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ah right, we have reached that point again. :rolleyes:

Just commenting on the remarkable coincidences that permeate the world.....

.....anyway.....

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And I was.
I do do something 'similar'.
I coach GAA and Soccer and I also teach, I do not lecture. I also have a business that is winding down.

....shouldn't you be at work

20-01-2017 10:59AM

maryishere wrote: »

"A post war report defended the operation "as the justified bombing of a strategic target, which they claimed was a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.". Perhaps it shortened the war .."

A load of rubbish tbh. You'd lap up anything the British came out with as gospel. The bombing of Dresden made no impact with regards to the conduct of, or shortening of the war.

Both sides could have used gas in the second world war but they did not, because if one side did, they knew there would be retaliation from the other side. In the cold war, both sides had nuclear weapons, but neither side used them, because they knew if one did the other would too. If you think that makes sides
" morally indistinguishable", dream on.

Not what you said. You think its ok to use repugnant methods justified on the basis that the other side has used them already. It allows you to squirm out of offering a moral judgement where the British are involved. One thing this thread has shown is your moral ambivalence with regards to, or refusal to give moral judgements where the British are linked in any way to questionable practices.

Fratton Fred · 20-01-2017 11:04AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it is akin to church missionary aid of old - we will help you in return for your soul.

The UN will help if the country aligns with the interests of the UN.
The interests of the UN have unfortunately become the 'interests' of the top 5 world powers who control it.
The power plays between those 5 comes before the interests of anyone else on the planet.
That is essentially the problem with the UN.

the interests of the UN, like providing education to women? seems like fairly straight forward human rights to me.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 11:07AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Just commenting on the remarkable coincidences that permeate the world.....

.....anyway.....

....shouldn't you be at work

I am, I am 'teaching' you.

But seriously have you ever come across the concept of 'part -time' work? If somebody says they have a business and also teach, what would be the chances that one or both of those activities conforming to the concept of it?

How unusual is it that somebody combines the above? I am sure there is copious research on it somewhere.

No need to answer, I think you know the answer already. Can we discuss the topic please, who or what I am really isn't relevant to anybody. You either have a counter argument or you don't.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 11:15AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the interests of the UN, like providing education to women? seems like fairly straight forward human rights to me.

While absolutely laudable, I think the provision of education behind marauding offensive forces might be what is causing the problems. Or the installing and support of 'democracies' or leaderships that align with the interests of some of the members of the top 5.
Replace N. America with The UN in the quote below:

The compulsion to do good is an innate AmericanUN trait. Only North Americans The UN seems to believe that they always should, may, and actually can choose somebody with whom to share their blessings.
Ultimately this attitude leads to bombing people into the acceptance of gifts. Ivan Illich

Fratton Fred · 20-01-2017 11:33AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

While absolutely laudable, I think the provision of education behind marauding offensive forces might be what is causing the problems. Or the installing and support of 'democracies' or leaderships that align with the interests of some of the members of the top 5.
Replace N. America with The UN in the quote below:

no, the problem is that there is a regime based on religious fundamentalism that is quite happy to kill teachers and students in schools that educate girls.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2016/10/31/300-afghan-schools-destroyed-in-weeks-as-taliban-attack-education.html

As much as you clearly hate the UK and US, you can't for one minute imagine life under the Taliban to be a good thing.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 11:41AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, the problem is that there is a regime based on religious fundamentalism that is quite happy to kill teachers and students in schools that educate girls.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2016/10/31/300-afghan-schools-destroyed-in-weeks-as-taliban-attack-education.html

As much as you clearly hate the UK and US, you can't for one minute imagine life under the Taliban to be a good thing.

What you need to get out of your head is that it is NOT about you and me. Then start looking at how you can assist to change things.

Fratton Fred · 20-01-2017 11:49AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What you need to get out of your head is that it is NOT about you and me. Then start looking at how you can assist to change things.

FrancieBrady · 20-01-2017 11:54AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You don't understand why UN policy isn't working in the middle east and has demonstratively only made things much much worse and unleashed a sleeping beast in ISIS?

Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

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