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The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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Comments

  • #5432
    Advbrd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Advbrd


    hinault wrote: »
    There is nothing detected on any 80 odd billion planets that you cite that can compare to what you see and sense all around this very day.

    Earth is unique.

    That was a sizeable project investigating those 80 billion planets. I don't remember who was involved. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
    In case you may not be aware, we currently do not have the ability to investigate the above mentioned planets. I would be very surprised if life did not exist on one or more planets other than this "unique" planet.


  • #5433
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    hinault wrote: »
    There has been nothing detected on any of the 40 billion candidates that you insist on citing here.

    None of those 40 billion candidates are therefore commensurate right now to what you see and sense all around you on Earth.

    Yet you weigh all that you cannot detect on those other 40 billion candidates right now, to claim that Earth is not unique.

    You refuse to weigh the evidence.

    Can you point to any evidence of the detection of the existence of God considering you are positing creationism as the explanation for human existence/the universe?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #5434
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Advbrd wrote: »
    That was a sizeable project investigating those 80 billion planets. I don't remember who was involved. Perhaps you could enlighten me.
    In case you may not be aware, we currently do not have the ability to investigate the above mentioned planets. I would be very surprised if life did not exist on one or more planets other than this "unique" planet.

    These 80 billion planets are just in our Galaxy. What about the other billions of galaxies in the universe?

    Sorry Hinault, I haven't checked them all for life. I suspect that you believe we are alone.

    Think of it this way: walk up Dollymount beach, then go to Inch beach, then Curracloe, then Keel in Achill. Out of all those beaches, select one grain of sand, just one, and imagine that this is our Solar system. Now imagine that a tiny, tiny part of that individual grain represents the Earth. This doesn't even come close to a representation of the size of the Earth in our Universe, but it gives us a scale. Now tell me Hinault, how do you suppose we can check every grain of sand on all those beaches? That is how complex it would be to check for life in the Universe.
    That's why I haven't done it yet. Maybe after lunch i'll have a go with my Aldi telescope.


  • #5435
    Advbrd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Advbrd


    Safehands wrote: »
    These 80 billion planets are just in our Galaxy. What about the other billions of galaxies in the universe?

    Sorry Hinault, I haven't checked them all for life. I suspect that you believe we are alone.

    Think of it this way: walk up Dollymount beach, then go to Inch beach, then Curracloe, then Keel in Achill. Out of all those beaches, select one grain of sand, just one, and imagine that this is our Solar system. Now imagine that a tiny, tiny part of that individual grain represents the Earth. This doesn't even come close to a representation of the size of the Earth in our Universe, but it gives us a scale. Now tell me Hinault, how do you suppose we can check every grain of sand on all those beaches? That is how complex it would be to check for life in the Universe.
    That's why I haven't done it yet. Maybe after lunch i'll have a go with my Aldi telescope.

    Give me a shout, I have an hour or two to spare.


  • #5436
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    hinault wrote: »
    robinph wrote: »
    As with your claims that the universe is designed because you claim that being able to measure something about it means it is therefore special and so must be designed, based on the evidence of a sample size of 1 universe you cannot back that up. Your claim regarding the Earth being the only planet with life on it is also based on a sample size of 1. You have not yet sufficiently investigated the 80 billion odd other planets that are also in the Goldilocks zone that is potentially suitable for life as we know it to exist. Nor have you investigated any of the other planets for lifeforms of a type that we do not about know exist.

    There is nothing detected on any 80 odd billion planets that you cite that can compare to what you see and sense all around this very day.

    Earth is unique.
    That will be because nobody has looked yet.

    We've only recently been able to detect the existence of these other planets. Certainly haven't been sending any probes out there to have done even the simplest of searches for lifeforms yet. We've not even discovered everything that exists on this planet, will be a little while longer before the whole universe is completed.


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  • #5437
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    robinph wrote: »
    That will be because nobody has looked yet.

    We've only recently been able to detect the existence of these other planets. Certainly haven't been sending any probes out there to have done even the simplest of searches for lifeforms yet. We've not even discovered everything that exists on this planet, will be a little while longer before the whole universe is completed.

    I suspect that this is very difficult for people like Hinault to grasp.


  • #5438
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    how do you suppose we can check every grain of sand on all those beaches? That is how complex it would be to check for life in the Universe.
    That's why I haven't done it yet. Maybe after lunch i'll have a go with my Aldi telescope.

    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".


  • #5439
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".
    how do you know its unique?


  • #5440
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,892 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    hinault wrote: »
    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".

    Do you believe there is life at the bottom of the deepest part of out oceans?


  • #5441
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".

    So you are of the view that there can't even be a possibility of other life? That you can only believe what you can actually see?

    How do you end up believing in God on that basis? We have no proof of God therefore he doesn't exist.

    Of course, you will move the argument to say that things like happiness and trees and newborn babies indicate their is a god, much like looking at the vast dimensions of the universe, the sheer number of similar type planets would indicate the existence of other lifeforms

    This despite God being all powerful, able to do whatever he wants. He has created untold amount of life on Earth but you find it impossible to even contemplate that he could have done it elsewhere? For such an all powerful being you seem pretty sure of his limitations


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  • #5442
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    hinault wrote: »
    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".

    This is a simply ridiculous argument - it has no more credibility that some remote islanders hundreds of years ago believing the world began and ended with their little piece of land as there was no evidence for anything else.

    How did that work out I wonder ?


  • #5443
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    hinault wrote: »
    Safehands wrote: »
    how do you suppose we can check every grain of sand on all those beaches? That is how complex it would be to check for life in the Universe.
    That's why I haven't done it yet. Maybe after lunch i'll have a go with my Aldi telescope.

    Tell that to the atheists/anti-theists.

    The atheists/anti-theists exactly demand that in order to validate that Earth is unique one must first investigate every single other object throughout the entire Universe to verify that life doesn't exist anywhere on all of those objects BEFORE they will tolerate any claims concerning life on Earth.

    Instead of observing what we have here right now all around us, and what have had here for centuries - atheists and anti-theists this very day insist on disregarding all of this evidence to point to the rest of the Universe to ponder "there might be life out there, but even though we can't see or sense any life out there, we'll infer that there must be some life somewhere out there, to validate our belief that Earth and all that is in it and has been in it, is not unique".
    You have zero understanding of the way that things are proven to be, or not to be, or of what counts as evidence for something, or not. Not even sure if you are certain what it is that you are arguing for or against.

    The earth may or may not be unique. Neither option proves, or disproves god.
    The earth may or may not be the only place in the universe containing life. Neither option proves, or disproves god.


  • #5444
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    how do you know its unique?

    Because there is nothing anywhere in the Universe that shows today creation comparable to the level of diversity and sophistication that there is here on Earth.


  • #5445
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    Because there is nothing anywhere in the Universe that shows today creation comparable to the level of diversity and sophistication that there is here on Earth.

    How do you know that Hinault?


  • #5446
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    How do you know that Hinault?

    I know it because to today no evidence of life of any kind has been detected anywhere throughout the remainder of the Universe.

    But feel free to continue to point to the complete lack of detection of any life anywhere throughout the Universe to weigh against the uniqueness of creation throughout Earth.


  • #5447
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    I know it because to today no evidence of life of any kind has been detected anywhere throughout the remainder of the Universe.

    By "the remainder of the Universe" I assume you mean that little area outside of Earth's influence.
    Hinault, are you able to grasp how large the Universe actually is?


  • #5448
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,066 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    hinault wrote: »
    Because there is nothing anywhere in the Universe that shows today creation comparable to the level of diversity and sophistication that there is here on Earth.

    Considering humanity has hardly explored the solar system, yet alone the entire universe, that's not a very convincing argument for creationism.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #5449
    Advbrd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Advbrd


    hinault wrote: »
    I know it because to today no evidence of life of any kind has been detected anywhere throughout the remainder of the Universe.

    But feel free to continue to point to the complete lack of detection of any life anywhere throughout the Universe to weigh against the uniqueness of creation throughout Earth.
    Feel free to provide any evidence that god exists or that any being had any part in "creation".


  • #5450
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Hinault, you do realise that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence?

    But if you really believe that having no evidence somehow proves that something cannot exist, how do you end up believing in God on that basis? We have no proof of God therefore he doesn't exist. The bible gives us proof that others believed in god, but there is plenty of evidence of others believing in life on other planets but that isn't enough.

    So you are of the view that there can't even be a possibility of other life? You seem to want to place massive limits on this all powerful god.


  • #5451
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Hinault, you do realise that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence?

    But if you really believe that having no evidence somehow proves that something cannot exist, how do you end up believing in God on that basis? We have no proof of God therefore he doesn't exist. The bible gives us proof that others believed in god, but there is plenty of evidence of others believing in life on other planets but that isn't enough.

    So you are of the view that there can't even be a possibility of other life? You seem to want to place massive limits on this all powerful god.

    Isn't it a bit crazy, all these sensible people trying to convince someone who is never going to see sense. I sometimes wonder if anyone can possibly be so obtuse, or is it deliberate?


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  • #5452
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    By "the remainder of the Universe" I assume you mean that little area outside of Earth's influence.
    Hinault, are you able to grasp how large the Universe actually is?

    I seem to be able to grasp just how large the Universe is, far better than you apparently.

    I've already listed data on earlier posts to the thread concerning the dimension of the gravitational scale that pertains to the Universe.

    So quit with your attempts to patronise.


  • #5453
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,892 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    hinault wrote: »
    I seem to be able to grasp just how large the Universe is, far better than you apparently.

    I've already listed data on earlier posts to the thread concerning the dimension of the gravitational scale that pertains to the Universe.

    So quit with your attempts to patronise.

    Do you believe there is life at the bottom of the deepest part of our oceans?


  • #5454
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    hinault wrote: »
    I seem to be able to grasp just how large the Universe is, far better than you apparently.

    Apparently not, actually, if your statements are anything to go by.


  • #5455
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Hinault, you do realise that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence?

    :rolleyes:

    This is rich especially so from an atheist/anti-theist who claims that because "there's no evidence of God, there is no God"


  • #5456
    Harika
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭Harika


    hinault wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    This is rich especially so from an atheist/anti-theist who claims that because "there's no evidence of God, there is no God"

    Who here made this conclusion?


  • #5457
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hinault wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    This is rich especially so from an atheist/anti-theist who claims that because "there's no evidence of God, there is no God"

    No atheist claims there is no god, and I certainly don't claim that a god couldn't exist. There is currently no evidence to suggest a god does exist, even less evidence to support the belief that a god who is actively involved in our lives and cares what we do exists.

    But there is always the possibility. You seem to be of the view that there is no possibility that other life forms can possibly exist, despite the massive range of life forms on this planet alone.

    But again, it goes back to why you believe that God exists since you have such a hard time accepting even the possibility that other life forms can exist.

    You seem to accept one form of evidence to accept one thing, but completely dismiss it for something else. At least be consistent.

    Nobody here knows for certain that other life exists in the universe, but the probability, given all we know about the abundance of the necessary components throughout the universe, is high. Is that proof, not at all.


  • #5458
    Panrich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭Panrich


    It's the religious gap theory in a slightly different guise.

    Our world is unique. There is only one planet and one sun.
    Ok those other things might be other planets but ours is the centre of the universe.
    Ok the sun is at the centre but it's because our planet is at the best position possible in an orbit that supports life.
    Ok so those other stars are suns but ours is the only one with planets.
    Ok there are other planets orbiting SOME of those suns but they're very rare and our solar system is still unique.
    OK so there are plenty of other planets orbiting plenty of suns but none of them have or could support life
    Ok so there are planets in the same 'Goldilocks' orbits as us that could support life, but we've no evidence of life on any of those planets.


  • #5459
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Safehands wrote: »
    Apparently not, actually, if your statements are anything to go by.

    Except you don't bother to read statements
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102225152

    I'd suggest that you quit trying to patronise if you wish to continue our exchange.


  • #5460
    hinault
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    No atheist claims there is no god, and I certainly don't claim that a god couldn't exist. There is currently no evidence to suggest a god does exist

    You hold that no God exists. Be honest, at least.


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  • #5461
    Panrich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭Panrich


    Atheists hold that no god exists in the same way that they hold that invisible dinosaurs don't exist. Once either is discovered beyond doubt, then our position will change.

    Contrast that with the question of life in the universe. It all about extrapolation. If you find something occurring even once, there is a good chance of finding a recurrence. That seems to be the way that the universe rolls. Given that we have one sample of life in the only solar system yet investigated at the level necessary, we can logically make the jump without embarrassing ourselves. If in the end, there is no life found elsewhere, then fine, we will have a unique finding, but I'd be very skeptical that is the case.


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