The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

hinault · 18-01-2017 12:28AM

indioblack wrote: »

The poster I quoted simply meant seeing - actually seeing. No one answered his post at the time - they probably thought he was being simplistic and amusing.
Yet there is a logic that could be pursued in his question.
Within the Christian sphere for almost all of the believers for almost all of the time God was not visible to them.
It may, therefore, follow that if God is not visible to our eyes, [when he could be if he chose to], there must be a reason why.
I'm not being negative - a Christian might answer, as in a sense you have, that the Christian God is more than such an obvious sense of perception.
I've often claimed that if there is a god it's our perception that is awry.

There are lots of things which people have never seen, but which they accept are real solely on the basis of the testimony of others.

You accept that your great great great great grandfather existed and his name was "endioblack", despite there being no birth certificate for the man and despite there being no deeds or documents or photographs attesting to his existence.
All you or your antecedents have is a verbal account that the man lived and that his name was endioblack.

In that context there is far more corroborative evidence to the existence of Jesus than there is to the existence of endioblack.

Does this lack of evidence mean that endioblack never existed? The cynic would claim so. Of course the reasonable person would be more open to accepting your testimony - and the testimony of your antecedents - to the fact that "endioblack" did exist and that he is your your great great great great grandfather, solely upon your bona fides.

J C · 18-01-2017 12:35AM

Brian? wrote: »

Never once refutting progressions that can be seen in the fossil record.

What 'progressions' are to be seen in the fossil record?

J C · 18-01-2017 12:37AM

Brian? wrote: »

But what about the extensive fossil records that do show step by step mutations?

There are none.

Brian? wrote: »

What about the genome sequencing that shows humans relationships to the other great apes?

Common design ... not common ancestors.

Brian? · 18-01-2017 01:32AM

J C wrote: »

What 'progressions' are to be seen in the fossil record?

Blind denial eh? Good for you.

See attached image. One of thousands of examples.

Brian? · 18-01-2017 01:33AM

J C wrote: »

There are none.

Common design ... not common ancestors.

Are you a young earth creationist?

hinault · 18-01-2017 01:59AM

J C wrote: »

What 'progressions' are to be seen in the fossil record?

Olde Darwin himself was at least more honest than many atheists/anti-theists
here who try to hid behind "evolution"

"Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory"

Brian? · 18-01-2017 02:01AM

hinault wrote: »

Olde Darwin himself was at least more honest than many atheists/anti-theists
here who try to hid behind "evolution"

Funny thing is we've discovered new fossils that filled in some gaps in the fossil record since Darwin wrote that.

hinault · 18-01-2017 02:15AM

Brian? wrote: »

Funny thing is we've discovered new fossils that filled in some gaps in the fossil record since Darwin wrote that.

Which means (1) that Darwin put forward his theory without evidence fossil evidence (and at least Darwin admitted as much).

Or (2) what you claim doesn't conform to what Darwin claimed.

Or (3) that you and Darwin both continue to claim something which has no fossil record proof.

So provide for me with a link - and not a link to a picture - to prove that fossils were discovered and where they prove what Darwin claimed but could not prove.

(my money is on 3

).

hinault · 18-01-2017 02:24AM

The positioning of Earth with the Universe is fascinating.

The planet given to us is located in what scientists refer to as Goldilocks Zone of our solar system.

Goldilocks Zone refers to the optimal distance from the Sun in this solar system, which allows life to be created, nourished and to flourish.
The precision of Earth's location from the Sun means that Earth is neither too hot or to cold to deter life to exist.
Compared to all of the rest of the objects in our solar system, Earth is truly unique.

Thanks to the precision of the Universe!

hinault · 18-01-2017 02:39AM

Another indication of just how precise creation is in terms of the Universe pertains to solar eclipses.

Earth is unique within this solar system when it comes to solar eclipses. Nowhere else in this solar system can a total solar eclipse be observed by a human.
One reason is that no object in the solar system can sustain human life.

The other more important reason is that no other observation point throughout our entire solar system provides the perfect co-ordinates to facilitate the perfect eclipse.

The Sun is 400 times the diameter of the Moon.
The Sun is 400 times further from Earth.
These precise dimensions allow us humans to be the only ones in this solar system the privilege to witness the perfect solar eclipse when the Moon passes directly between Earth and the Sun.

uck51js9zml2yt · 18-01-2017 03:05AM

looksee wrote: »

Atheist and anti-theist are both from Greek. One means having no belief in a god or gods, the other means actively opposed to god and believers.

I for one am atheist. If people want to believe in god, fine, just don't impose your belief on my life. Back off and attend to your own business and keep out of mine. I even have sympathy for some aspects, the social and comforting aspects of religion. If that's what you want, go for it, but don't try and make me go for it too.

If I were anti-theist I would be actively opposing (as against dismissing) god and would be as determined to impose my anti-theism as religious people are determined to impose their theistic beliefs.

if that's how you feel, fine. But why are you here if what you said is true ?

Absolam · 18-01-2017 03:15AM

hinault wrote: »

The positioning of Earth with the Universe is fascinating. The planet given to us is located in what scientists refer to as Goldilocks Zone of our solar system. Goldilocks Zone refers to the optimal distance from the Sun in this solar system, which allows life to be created, nourished and to flourish. The precision of Earth's location from the Sun means that Earth is neither too hot or to cold to deter life to exist. Compared to all of the rest of the objects in our solar system, Earth is truly unique. Thanks to the precision of the Universe!

That doesn't seem all that amazing? We exist because the conditions are such that only creatures such as us can exist. In other parts of the universe it seems just as likely that creatures will exist that are suitable for the conditions in which they exist. Not only is the Earth unique (for a given value of uniqueness), but every other planet has unique attributes, as does every other body in the universe. In fact it's that level of variation in uniqueness that makes it all the more possible for there to be remarkably different lifeforms out there.
Which is not an argument either for or against God, just against the notion that our 'special' circumstances are particularly remarkable.

hinault · 18-01-2017 03:25AM

Absolam wrote: »

That doesn't seem all that amazing? We exist because the conditions are such that only creatures such as us can exist. In other parts of the universe it seems just as likely that creatures will exist that are suitable for the conditions in which they exist. Not only is the Earth unique (for a given value of uniqueness), but every other planet has unique attributes, as does every other body in the universe. In fact it's that level of variation in uniqueness that makes it all the more possible for there to be remarkably different lifeforms out there.
Which is not an argument either for or against God, just against the notion that our 'special' circumstances are particularly remarkable.

Which parts of the Universe?

Which parts provide the perfect conditions to allow life to be created, to nourish and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity that we have here on Earth?

Absolam · 18-01-2017 03:36AM

hinault wrote: »

Which parts of the Universe? Which parts provide the perfect conditions to allow life to be created, to nourish and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity that we have here on Earth?

Who knows? It's not like we've explored any of it, is it? Based on observed data to date, astronomers estimate around 40 billion planets exist is the same type of conditions as lifeforms such as ourselves would consider a 'goldilocks zone', so those parts look pretty likely before we even get to what utterly dissimilar lifeforms might consider to be a goldilocks zone for their own physiology. Quite possibly every single square centimeter of the universe provide the perfect conditions to allow some sort of life to exist and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity we have here, but it just doesn't happen very often, or we're not yet equipped to observe it. We'll just have to wait and see.

Brian? · 18-01-2017 07:18AM

hinault wrote: »

Which means (1) that Darwin put forward his theory without evidence fossil evidence (and at least Darwin admitted as much).

Or (2) what you claim doesn't conform to what Darwin claimed.

Or (3) that you and Darwin both continue to claim something which has no fossil record proof.

So provide for me with a link - and not a link to a picture - to prove that fossils were discovered and where they prove what Darwin claimed but could not prove.

(my money is on 3 ).

4. Darwin put forward his theory on the evidence available to him at the time. The subsequent discoveries of fossils are in line with this theory.

It's simple. This is how science works. I don't need to provide anymore links. The fossil record for the great apes is illustrative enough.

I'll ask again: Are you a young earth creationist?

Brian? · 18-01-2017 07:19AM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

if that's how you feel, fine. But why are you here if what you said is true ?

Are you going to respond to my posts?

How old do you believe the earth is?

Advbrd · 18-01-2017 07:45AM

hinault wrote: »

Another indication of just how precise creation is in terms of the Universe pertains to solar eclipses.

Earth is unique within this solar system when it comes to solar eclipses. Nowhere else in this solar system can a total solar eclipse be observed by a human.
One reason is that no object in the solar system can sustain human life.

The other more important reason is that no other observation point throughout our entire solar system provides the perfect co-ordinates to facilitate the perfect eclipse.

The Sun is 400 times the diameter of the Moon.
The Sun is 400 times further from Earth.
These precise dimensions allow us humans to be the only ones in this solar system the privilege to witness the perfect solar eclipse when the Moon passes directly between Earth and the Sun.

Well, it's about 400 versus 390 but so what. We have come to live in the universe because the conditions allow us. That does not mean it was created by a supreme being. It simply means life developed here because the conditions allowed it. How does that mean a supreme being was responsible?

Harika · 18-01-2017 09:30AM

hinault wrote: »

Another indication of just how precise creation is in terms of the Universe pertains to solar eclipses.

Earth is unique within this solar system when it comes to solar eclipses. Nowhere else in this solar system can a total solar eclipse be observed by a human.
One reason is that no object in the solar system can sustain human life.

The other more important reason is that no other observation point throughout our entire solar system provides the perfect co-ordinates to facilitate the perfect eclipse.

The Sun is 400 times the diameter of the Moon.
The Sun is 400 times further from Earth.
These precise dimensions allow us humans to be the only ones in this solar system the privilege to witness the perfect solar eclipse when the Moon passes directly between Earth and the Sun.

First of all, a perfect eclipse is only perfect if you are at the right place at earth. So the eclipse can be perfect in Ireland, but partial in France at the same time. Hardly convincing.
The planets of the outer solar system, also experience perfect eclipses with their moons. When we ever get there, we can also experience it.

Leroy42 · 18-01-2017 10:15AM

hinault wrote: »

http://traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/Old_Testament/The_Prophecy_of_Isaias/Chapter-40.html

Well this isn't really true now is it? It doesn't say the earth is a globe, it says it is round, a circle. A circle is flat.

" Isa. 40:22a describes God as sitting/ dwelling above "the circle of the earth" which God laid out--with a compass, as Job 26:10 and Prov. 8:27 suggest, for the latter verses describe the act of inscribing the circle that fixes the boundary between the earth and the deep, the circle that also marks the boundary between light and darkness.20 The context also suggests that in Isa. 40:22a, the earth ('erets) which is encircled refers not to the earth as that part of the creation distinct from the heavens (Gen. 1:1)--as the creationists cited above seem to interpret it--but to other meanings of earth: as "the dry land" (Gen. 1:9-10), and at the same time, it appears, as "the ground on which people and things stand," for "its inhabitants are like grasshoppers."21"

"The prophet who uttered the words of 40:22 is the same prophet who proclaimed that Yahweh is the Creator who "spread out the earth" (42:5; 44:24). The Hebrew verb in both passages is raqa', which means "to stretch out, spread out or abroad, cover over" and, according to Theodore Gaster, "to flatten out."37 Among his people in the exile community in Babylon,38 looking out over the enormous desert expanse that reached from horizon to horizon, it is not surprising that this prophet would describe God as "flattening out" the land. These other expressions also militate against the notion that the prophet was implying a spherical earth in 40:22a, and they act as a check against focusing upon one verse and reading it outside the larger context of this prophet's other inspired oracles of creation and salvation."

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html

hinault · 18-01-2017 11:44AM

Absolam wrote: »

Who knows? It's not like we've explored any of it, is it? Based on observed data to date, astronomers estimate around 40 billion planets exist is the same type of conditions as lifeforms such as ourselves would consider a 'goldilocks zone', so those parts look pretty likely before we even get to what utterly dissimilar lifeforms might consider to be a goldilocks zone for their own physiology. Quite possibly every single square centimeter of the universe provide the perfect conditions to allow some sort of life to exist and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity we have here, but it just doesn't happen very often, or we're not yet equipped to observe it. We'll just have to wait and see.

"Likely" "Possibly" "we'll just have to wait and see"

There is zero evidence that there is any life out there throughout the Universe commensurate with what passes for life for you and me and the billions of people who live, and have lived, on this planet.

I asked you to present the evidence which shows that there is life in any other part of the Universe which compares to what we have here - and you can't.

Instead of honestly weighing the evidence and admitting that as of right now Earth appears to be absolutely unique, you ignore the evidence.

Absolam · 18-01-2017 11:49AM

hinault wrote: »

"Likely" "Possibly" "we'll just have to wait and see"
There is zero evidence that there is any life out there throughout the Universe commensurate with what passes for life for you and me and the billions of people who live, and have lived, on this planet.
I asked you to present the evidence which shows that there is life in any other part of the Universe which compares to what we have here - and you can't.
Instead of honestly weighing the evidence and admitting that as of right now Earth appears to be absolutely unique, you ignore the evidence.

Well.... no. If you recall I never made any claim that there is evidence of other life, I said that the circumstances of the Earth don't seem all that amazing, and that in other parts of the universe it seems just as likely that creatures will exist that are suitable for the conditions in which they exist. I'm happy to stand over what I've said, if not what you'd like me to have said.

Delirium · 18-01-2017 11:52AM

hinault wrote: »

"Likely" "Possibly" "we'll just have to wait and see"

There is zero evidence that there is any life out there throughout the Universe commensurate with what passes for life for you and me and the billions of people who live, and have lived, on this planet.

How many planets has mankind reached and examined to confirm you contention that humans are the only life in the whole universe?

I asked you to present the evidence which shows that there is life in any other part of the Universe which compares to what we have here - and you can't.

Care to present your evidence for God, considering you're contenting He created the universe in fashion consistent with creationism?

Instead of honestly weighing the evidence and admitting that as of right now Earth appears to be absolutely unique, you ignore the evidence.

Logically, given the existence of complex life on this world, how can you contend that no life (complex or otherwise) can't exist elsewhere given the large number of stars and planets in the universe?

hinault · 18-01-2017 11:53AM

Absolam wrote: »

Well.... no. If you recall I never made any claim that there is evidence of other life, I said that the circumstances of the Earth don't seem all that amazing, and that in other parts of the universe it seems just as likely that creatures will exist that are suitable for the conditions in which they exist. I'm happy to stand over what I've said, if not what you'd like me to have said.

I asked you to weigh the evidence of Earth against the evidence pertaining to the rest of the Universe.

An honest look at the evidence can only conclude that Earth is wholly unique.

Atheists/anti-theists presented with incontrovertible evidence refuse to accept that God exists and that God is the catalyst for creation,

Absolam · 18-01-2017 12:04PM

hinault wrote: »

I asked you to weigh the evidence of Earth against the evidence pertaining to the rest of the Universe. An honest look at the evidence can only conclude that Earth is wholly unique. Atheists/anti-theists presented with incontrovertible evidence refuse to accept that God exists and that God is the catalyst for creation,

Actually, you asked me which parts of the universe provide the perfect conditions to allow life to be created, to nourish and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity that we have here on Earth. So far we have about 40 billion candidates, just for the extraordinarily limited kind of life we currently are aware of... it seems Earth is about as unique as everywhere else. None of which informs the question of whether God is the catalyst for creation, only how special you believe our planet to be, despite the evidence that it's not likely to be very special at all.

Safehands · 18-01-2017 12:05PM

hinault wrote: »

"Likely" "Possibly" "we'll just have to wait and see"

There is zero evidence that there is any life out there throughout the Universe commensurate with what passes for life for you and me and the billions of people who live, and have lived, on this planet.

I asked you to present the evidence which shows that there is life in any other part of the Universe which compares to what we have here - and you can't.

Instead of honestly weighing the evidence and admitting that as of right now Earth appears to be absolutely unique, you ignore the evidence.

What a ridiculous post!
Hinault, there are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on every beach in the world. Almost an infinite number of stars, and that does not take account of how many planets there may be.
Come on Hinault, you have got to do better than that!

Timberrrrrrrr · 18-01-2017 12:09PM

hinault wrote: »

I asked you to weigh the evidence of Earth against the evidence pertaining to the rest of the Universe.

An honest look at the evidence can only conclude that Earth is wholly unique.

Atheists/anti-theists presented with incontrovertible evidence refuse to accept that God exists and that God is the catalyst for creation,

You're jot looking at all the evidence though you are looking at the evidence that says after looking at (maybe) 1% of the universe we have found no evidence of intelligent life.

Where is this incontrovertible evidence that God exists?

robinph · 18-01-2017 12:10PM

hinault wrote: »

Absolam wrote: »

Well.... no. If you recall I never made any claim that there is evidence of other life, I said that the circumstances of the Earth don't seem all that amazing, and that in other parts of the universe it seems just as likely that creatures will exist that are suitable for the conditions in which they exist. I'm happy to stand over what I've said, if not what you'd like me to have said.

I asked you to weigh the evidence of Earth against the evidence pertaining to the rest of the Universe.

An honest look at the evidence can only conclude that Earth is wholly unique.

Atheists/anti-theists presented with incontrovertible evidence refuse to accept that God exists and that God is the catalyst for creation,

As with your claims that the universe is designed because you claim that being able to measure something about it means it is therefore special and so must be designed, based on the evidence of a sample size of 1 universe you cannot back that up. Your claim regarding the Earth being the only planet with life on it is also based on a sample size of 1. You have not yet sufficiently investigated the 80 billion odd other planets that are also in the Goldilocks zone that is potentially suitable for life as we know it to exist. Nor have you investigated any of the other planets for lifeforms of a type that we do not about know exist.

Advbrd · 18-01-2017 01:17PM

hinault wrote: »

I asked you to weigh the evidence of Earth against the evidence pertaining to the rest of the Universe.

An honest look at the evidence can only conclude that Earth is wholly unique.

Atheists/anti-theists presented with incontrovertible evidence refuse to accept that God exists and that God is the catalyst for creation,

Not alone is there no incontrovertible evidence, there is no evidence, none, not even the remotest indication that God exists and if he/she/it does exist, there is not one iota of evidence that he/she/it had anything to do with creation or our being here. There is also no evidence that we or this planet are unique or that life similar to us or completely different to us does not exist somewhere out there on the billions of planets that exist.

hinault · 18-01-2017 01:19PM

Absolam wrote: »

Actually, you asked me which parts of the universe provide the perfect conditions to allow life to be created, to nourish and flourish to the level of sophistication and diversity that we have here on Earth. So far we have about 40 billion candidates, just for the extraordinarily limited kind of life we currently are aware of... it seems Earth is about as unique as everywhere else. None of which informs the question of whether God is the catalyst for creation, only how special you believe our planet to be, despite the evidence that it's not likely to be very special at all.

There has been nothing detected on any of the 40 billion candidates that you insist on citing here.

None of those 40 billion candidates are therefore commensurate right now to what you see and sense all around you on Earth.

Yet you weigh all that you cannot detect on those other 40 billion candidates right now, to claim that Earth is not unique.

You refuse to weigh the evidence.

hinault · 18-01-2017 01:26PM

robinph wrote: »

As with your claims that the universe is designed because you claim that being able to measure something about it means it is therefore special and so must be designed, based on the evidence of a sample size of 1 universe you cannot back that up. Your claim regarding the Earth being the only planet with life on it is also based on a sample size of 1. You have not yet sufficiently investigated the 80 billion odd other planets that are also in the Goldilocks zone that is potentially suitable for life as we know it to exist. Nor have you investigated any of the other planets for lifeforms of a type that we do not about know exist.

There is nothing detected on any 80 odd billion planets that you cite that can compare to what you see and sense all around this very day.

Earth is unique.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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