The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-01-2017 07:38PM

hinault wrote: »

Evolution shredded

Not even scratched never mind shredded :rolleyes:

Brian? · 16-01-2017 07:49PM

Brian? wrote: »

Watched 30 mins so far. Same old nonsense.

Finished the video. It was torture. He spent roughly 7 minutes actually addressing evolution, focusing on unexplained anomalies. Never once refutting progressions that can be seen in the fossil record.

To sum up: we don't know why certain things happened, so there must be a god.

hinault · 17-01-2017 02:33AM

Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked, non-shocker.

Brian? · 17-01-2017 02:45AM

hinault wrote: »

Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked, non-shocker.

There was no evidence in that video that evolution was debunked. There were doubts raised about it.

Most of the video was the speaker congratulating himself and praising books and films by other intelligent design believers. Then a wee bit at the end about gaps in the fossil record. A lack of ancestors for certain creatures. Fair enough, a gap remains to be closed.

But what about the extensive fossil records that do show step by step mutations? What about the genome sequencing that shows humans relationships to the other great apes? You're dismissing that evidence, despite its massive weight, because you've decided god exists and designed everything in the universe.

Are you a young earth creationist?

Delirium · 17-01-2017 09:19AM

hinault wrote: »

Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that simply dismiss the evidence for Evolution is debunked, non-shocker.

FYP

EDIT: it's also a bit of a leap to presume that all Christians don't accept the evidence for evolution.

Harika · 17-01-2017 10:35AM

Brian? wrote: »

Most of the video was the speaker congratulating himself and praising books and films by other intelligent design believers. Then a wee bit at the end about gaps in the fossil record. A lack of ancestors for certain creatures. Fair enough, a gap remains to be closed.

Video is out of sync but describes the frustration of explaining the gaps between two steps very well.

Safehands · 17-01-2017 10:43AM

hinault wrote: »

Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked, non-shocker.

Couldn't agree more, Hinault. Flat Earthers have the same problem, so frustrating for them.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-01-2017 05:11PM

Safehands wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, Hinault. Flat Earthers have the same problem, so frustrating for them.

I'm not sure anyone here belives in a flat earth.

Putting aside all the argument. The main reason for people to believe in evolution is that if we believe in creation, then we must also believe in a creator. If that's the case then we must be answerable to Him and that's something most people don't want to do.

Leroy42 · 17-01-2017 05:18PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone here belives in a flat earth.

Putting aside all the argument. The main reason for people to believe in evolution is that if we believe in creation, then we must also believe in a creator. If that's the case then we must be answerable to Him and that's something most people don't want to do.

Firstly, nobody believes in evolution, at least not in the same terms as belief works in religion. People 'believe' in evolution because of the overwhelming amount of evidence, across multiple disciplines. Why would people bother to take on board such a thoery simply to avoid believing in God. Just don't believe in god, there is no need for this evolution step.

If that's the case then we must be answerable to Him Why? Creator doesn't equal ruler? Even if you accept that there was a creator, that doesn't leave only the possibility that we are answerable to him/her. It could just as easily be that there was an external force that created the universe but by doing so was destroyed itself, or continued to exist but play no active role.

Lets accept, for the sake of ease at the moment, that the universe was created by an all powerful deity.

What proof is there that that deity takes an interest in your life or cares what you do or that you are answerable to it when you die?

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-01-2017 05:34PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Firstly, nobody believes in evolution, at least not in the same terms as belief works in religion. People 'believe' in evolution because of the overwhelming amount of evidence, across multiple disciplines. Why would people bother to take on board such a thoery simply to avoid believing in God. Just don't believe in god, there is no need for this evolution step.

If that's the case then we must be answerable to Him Why? Creator doesn't equal ruler? Even if you accept that there was a creator, that doesn't leave only the possibility that we are answerable to him/her. It could just as easily be that there was an external force that created the universe but by doing so was destroyed itself, or continued to exist but play no active role.

Lets accept, for the sake of ease at the moment, that the universe was created by an all powerful deity.

What proof is there that that deity takes an interest in your life or cares what you do or that you are answerable to it when you die?

just read the book He gave us or talk to those of us who have experienced His care and interest in our lives. The last 32 years are testament to His care for me.

Leroy42 · 17-01-2017 05:38PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

just read the book He gave us or talk to those of us who have experienced His care and interest in our lives. The last 32 years are testament to His care for me.

Which book? The Koran, Tanakh or the Bible? And which parts?

What care has he given to you? I would think your parents are deserving of a bit more praise, and the doctors and nurses, and teachers.

And what of all the people who suffered while you were protected by God. Was he too busy with you to care? Maybe they had read the wrong book.

But if we all created by him, why would he choose certain people to suffer over others?

And pray tell give us the testament to his caring over the last 32 years that wasn't achieved by utilising the skill and caring of humans rather than waiting for God to spot it.

Harika · 17-01-2017 05:38PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

just read the book He gave us or talk to those of us who have experienced His care and interest in our lives. The last 32 years are testament to His care for me.

When did he exactly hand this book over?

Safehands · 17-01-2017 05:45PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

just read the book He gave us or talk to those of us who have experienced His care and interest in our lives. The last 32 years are testament to His care for me.

He didn't "give us" the book.

Someone wrote it and told us they were inspired by him, or someone else told us that the writer was inspired by him. Same thing applies to the Koran really. Loads think that was inspired too.
You say "talk to those of us who have experienced His care and interest in our lives." Fine, but then talk to any one of millions who have suffered greatly and definitely not experienced his care and interest in their lives. See what they have to say.

Brian? · 17-01-2017 06:58PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone here belives in a flat earth.

Putting aside all the argument. The main reason for people to believe in evolution is that if we believe in creation, then we must also believe in a creator. If that's the case then we must be answerable to Him and that's something most people don't want to do.

Evolution is not a belief system. You either accept the evidence or you don't, belief is irrelevant.

I'm struggling to make out your point here. Is it that people accept evolution so they don't feel answerable to god? If that is your point, what about the vast majority of Christians who do accept evolution?

hinault · 17-01-2017 09:35PM

Safehands wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, Hinault. Flat Earthers have the same problem, so frustrating for them.

Except unlike you apparently, I know of no person who believes what the Bible teaches who claims to hold that Earth is flat.

40:22 It is He that sitteth upon the globe of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as locusts: He that stretcheth out the heavens as nothing, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.

http://traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/Old_Testament/The_Prophecy_of_Isaias/Chapter-40.html

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-01-2017 09:42PM

Brian? wrote: »

Evolution is not a belief system. You either accept the evidence or you don't, belief is irrelevant.

I'm struggling to make out your point here. Is it that people accept evolution so they don't feel answerable to god? If that is your point, what about the vast majority of Christians who do accept evolution?

of course it's a belief system! What evidence is there that we came from a primordial soup? Were you there to see it happen? I suggest you "believe" it happened.
As for Christians accepting evolution....what's your definition of a Christian? Its probably different to mine.

Also as hinault said...the bible says the earth is round. This being long before GAlileo .

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-01-2017 09:54PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

of course it's a belief system! What evidence is there that we came from a primordial soup? Were you there to see it happen? I suggest you "believe" it happened.
As for Christians accepting evolution....what's your definition of a Christian? Its probably different to mine.

Also as hinault said...the bible says the earth is round. This being long before GAlileo .

The bible says a lot of things, Christians just tend to believe the bits they want to believe and ignore the rest

Safehands · 17-01-2017 10:07PM

hinault wrote: »

Except unlike you apparently, I know of no person who believes what the Bible teaches who claims to hold that Earth is flat.

You said "Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked." That is very true Hinault.

Likewise, Round earthers refuse to recognise the evidence showing that the Earth is flat, because there is none, just like the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked.

Strangely, Atheists also refuse to recognise the evidence showing that the story of creation is true, because there is none!

Harika · 17-01-2017 10:12PM

hinault wrote: »

Except unlike you apparently, I know of no person who believes what the Bible teaches who claims to hold that Earth is flat.

http://traditionalcatholic.net/Scripture/Old_Testament/The_Prophecy_of_Isaias/Chapter-40.html

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Isaiah-40-22/ http://biblehub.com/isaiah/40-22.htm says circle, german translations also state circle.

hinault · 17-01-2017 10:20PM

Safehands wrote: »

You said "Atheists refuse to recognise the evidence showing that Evolution is debunked." That is very true Hinault.

I know.

Safehands wrote: »

Likewise, Round earthers refuse to recognise the evidence showing that the Earth is flat,

To be clear, it was you who initially referred to "flat earthers".

If flat earthers and/or round earthers read Isaias 40:22 they'd find the correct answer.

Safehands wrote: »

Strangely, Atheists also refuse to recognise the evidence showing that the story of creation is true, because there is none!

No.
Atheists would continue to refuse to accept that God created the Universe even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

That's the reality.

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-01-2017 10:37PM

hinault wrote: »

I know.

To be clear, it was you who initially referred to "flat earthers".

If flat earthers and/or round earthers read Isaias 40:22 they'd find the correct answer.

No.
Atheists would continue to refuse to accept that God created the Universe even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

That's the reality.

Actually that's a lie! Show me incontrovertible evidence of a God and I'll happily believe.

indioblack · 17-01-2017 10:50PM

hinault wrote: »

I know.

To be clear, it was you who initially referred to "flat earthers".

If flat earthers and/or round earthers read Isaias 40:22 they'd find the correct answer.

No.
Atheists would continue to refuse to accept that God created the Universe even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

That's the reality.

But is it? Given incontrovertible evidence, what would be different about atheists that they could not accept said evidence?
Actually, from the Christian point of view, it's belief without evidence that is the requirement.
Some years ago, a poster in another thread asked why we can't see God.
If we can't see God it can only be because God doesn't want us to - well for most of the millennia anyway.
Since, from the Christian perspective, God cannot do anything without a positive meaning, it seems reasonable to assume that God's invisibility is part of the requirement for belief.

hinault · 17-01-2017 10:59PM

indioblack wrote: »

But is it? Given incontrovertible evidence, what would be different about atheists that they could not accept said evidence?
Actually, from the Christian point of view, it's belief without evidence that is the requirement.
Some years ago, a poster in another thread asked why we can't see God.
If we can't see God it can only be because God doesn't want us to - well for most of the millennia anyway.
Since, from the Christian perspective, God cannot do anything without a positive meaning, it seems reasonable to assume that God's invisibility is part of the requirement for belief.

It is. Atheists, or more precisely anti-theists, would continue to ignore incontrovertible proof as to the existence of God.

I disagree that God has been invisible to humanity. The Bible records the prophets who communicated with God. The Bible records that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that Jesus lived for 33 years on Earth.

So to suggest that God has been invisible to humanity, does not concur with what the Bible teaches.

Of course if one rejects what the Bible teaches, then one holds that God has been invisible to humanity throughout history.

Brian? · 17-01-2017 11:04PM

hinault wrote: »

I know.

To be clear, it was you who initially referred to "flat earthers".

If flat earthers and/or round earthers read Isaias 40:22 they'd find the correct answer.

No.
Atheists would continue to refuse to accept that God created the Universe even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.

That's the reality.

Atheists don't hold meetings and decide what to believe. If you showed me "incontrovertible proof" it's no longer a matter of belief, I'll accept the evidence and move one.

Brian? · 17-01-2017 11:13PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

of course it's a belief system! What evidence is there that we came from a primordial soup? Were you there to see it happen? I suggest you "believe" it happened.

That's not evolution though. The theory of evolution relates to how life evolved after it came into being. I accept the evidence for evolution.

I also believe the theory of proteins developing in a primordial soup and developing into early life. Because it's the most logical idea presented. If you present evidence to the contrary I'll happily consider it.

As for Christians accepting evolution....what's your definition of a Christian? Its probably different to mine.

Brilliant. A "no true Scotsman" argument. Brilliant, I have see one of those in ages.

So no one who believes in Christ as their saviour but believes in evolution is Christian?

Also as hinault said...the bible says the earth is round. This being long before GAlileo .

So what? I never mentioned a flat or round earth.

I would remark, I admire your certainty and that of any commited Christian. It must be great not to have doubts.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-01-2017 11:19PM

Brian? wrote: »

That's not evolution though. The theory of evolution relates to how life evolved after it came into being. I accept the evidence for evolution.

I also believe the theory of proteins developing in a primordial soup and developing into early life. Because it's the most logical idea presented. If you present evidence to the contrary I'll happily consider it.

.

it may be logical to you, but where is the evidence?

indioblack · 17-01-2017 11:25PM

hinault wrote: »

It is. Atheists, or more precisely anti-theists, would continue to ignore incontrovertible proof as to the existence of God.

I disagree that God has been invisible to humanity. The Bible records the prophets who communicated with God. The Bible records that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that Jesus lived for 33 years on Earth.

So to suggest that God has been invisible to humanity, does not concur with what the Bible teaches.

Of course if one rejects what the Bible teaches, then one holds that God has been invisible to humanity throughout history.

The poster I quoted simply meant seeing - actually seeing. No one answered his post at the time - they probably thought he was being simplistic and amusing.
Yet there is a logic that could be pursued in his question.
Within the Christian sphere for almost all of the believers for almost all of the time God was not visible to them.
It may, therefore, follow that if God is not visible to our eyes, [when he could be if he chose to], there must be a reason why.
I'm not being negative - a Christian might answer, as in a sense you have, that the Christian God is more than such an obvious sense of perception.
I've often claimed that if there is a god it's our perception that is awry.

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-01-2017 11:36PM

hinault wrote: »

It is. Atheists, or more precisely anti-theists, would continue to ignore incontrovertible proof as to the existence of God.

I disagree that God has been invisible to humanity. The Bible records the prophets who communicated with God. The Bible records that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that Jesus lived for 33 years on Earth.

So to suggest that God has been invisible to humanity, does not concur with what the Bible teaches.

Of course if one rejects what the Bible teaches, then one holds that God has been invisible to humanity throughout history.

No no no no no

Why do you continue with this lie?

If you show me that grass is green I cannot and will not denying the grass is green simply because the evidence (incontrovertible) is there for me to see!

I would be the same if you showed me evidence that God exists! Until this evidence is provided then yes I will not believe in god (s) In any way shape or form.

Brian? · 17-01-2017 11:52PM

Astrid Quick Case wrote: »

it may be logical to you, but where is the evidence?

Why don't reply to my entire posts instead of attempting to point score on individual parts? Or are conceding the points you're not responding to?

looksee · 18-01-2017 12:01AM

hinault wrote: »

It is. Atheists, or more precisely anti-theists, would continue to ignore incontrovertible proof as to the existence of God.

Atheist and anti-theist are both from Greek. One means having no belief in a god or gods, the other means actively opposed to god and believers.

I for one am atheist. If people want to believe in god, fine, just don't impose your belief on my life. Back off and attend to your own business and keep out of mine. I even have sympathy for some aspects, the social and comforting aspects of religion. If that's what you want, go for it, but don't try and make me go for it too.

If I were anti-theist I would be actively opposing (as against dismissing) god and would be as determined to impose my anti-theism as religious people are determined to impose their theistic beliefs.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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