Elderly Drivers.

TheQuietFella · 31-12-2016 11:05am #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1230/841845-fatal-crash-cork/

Is it time now to put the elderly people off the road?

Is there an age limit on when you cannot drive?

I appreciate that living in rural communities can be difficult but incidents

such as the ones in the above link are not the first and won't be the last!

ITV2 · 31-12-2016 11:17am

Not all elderly drivers are bad drivers, I see more and more younger drivers making dreadful manoeuvres on the roads. It takes all sort to drive a car.

TheQuietFella · 31-12-2016 11:20am

ITV2 wrote: »

Not all elderly drivers are bad drivers, I see more and more younger drivers making dreadful manoeuvres on the roads. It takes all sort to drive a car.

I agree but that's not my point!

endacl · 31-12-2016 11:22am

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I agree but that's not my point!

Poster responded to the point you appeared to make. So, what is your point?

Nomis21 · 31-12-2016 11:22am

Driving licences should be taken from any licensed driver who is admitted to medical care for any disability/illness which makes him permanently unfit to drive.

Other jurisdictions such as UK do this .

magicbastarder · 31-12-2016 11:25am

OP - the rules regarding licences and age are easy to find.

Also, can you quantify how big an issue this is before removing all elderly people from the road? One swallow does not make a summer.

Big Bag of Chips · 31-12-2016 11:35am

Hundreds of people die on the roads every year. Most of them an awful lot younger than those two drivers. Why would you decide that old people are the biggest danger on the road?

According to the RSA, last year the higest number of deaths were in the 16-25 age group. Is it time now to put the under 25s off the road? And out of 166 deaths, 130 were male. Is it time to put men off the roads? Time to put men under 25 off the roads?

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Deaths-injuries-on-Irish-roads/

meeeeh · 31-12-2016 11:42am

They are not the biggest danger, I think that would be ridiculous to claim. However there is no denying that some who are not in a state to drive are still driving. Usually they have the common sense to stick to the local roads. But it is the same as for everything, if you are not in condition to drive you shouldn't be driving and I think after certain age yearly renewals should be mandatory.

Isambard · 31-12-2016 11:49am

this is ridiculously Ageist. Without commenting on the incidents quoted as no details are yet known of what happened, many drivers in their 80s are likely to be fitter than someone younger who may have diabetes , or a heart problem or indeed a drink/drugs problem.

Each driver needs to be looked at on his/her merits and not because of their age.

I agree that medical testing needs to be looked at, but this needs to be across the board.

looksee · 31-12-2016 12:10pm

Currently when applying for a license there is a detailed list of conditions that you have to sign that you do or do not have, and if you have any of them you have to get a doctor's letter to say it will not affect your ability to drive.

After 70 you can only apply for a 3 year or 1 year license and medical confirmation of fitness to drive is required at renewal.

I had an accident within 2 weeks of passing my driving test. Since then I have not had an accident in 48 years. I am not sure whether I qualify as 'elderly' but I think I am still a perfectly competent driver.

There are some dodgy elderly drivers out there, but there are some dodgy younger drivers too, it is not a wholesale classification.

BrianD3 · 31-12-2016 12:11pm

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Hundreds of people die on the roads every year. Most of them an awful lot younger than those two drivers. Why would you decide that old people are the biggest danger on the road?

Well based on stats from the RSA "review of fatal collisions - age profile"
2014: there were more road fatalities among the 66+ age group than in any other age group. 16-25 was the next worst age group.
2015: 16-25 was the worst age group followed by 66+.
2016 to July: 66+ was the worst age group followed by 26-35.

These are just the raw figures. I would say that if you were to measure fatalities per mile driven, old people would have a high rate as they would tend to drive relatively low mileage, can avail of free travel on public transport which has a very low fatality rate etc.

Old people make up a high proportion of pedestrian fatalities and also cause a high proportion of wrong way motorway collisions which are often fatal.

The medical test process that elderly people have to go through when renewing their licence is flawed, I don't know if it the test itself is too easy to pass or if GPs are bending the rules/giving people the benefit of the doubt as they are reluctant to "put them off the road".

magicbastarder · 31-12-2016 12:16pm

BrianD3 wrote: »

Well based on stats from the RSA "review of fatal collisions - age profile"
2014: there were more road fatalities among the 66+ age group than in any other age group. 16-25 was the next worst age group.
2015: 16-25 was the worst age group followed by 66+.
2016 to July: 66+ was the worst age group followed by 16-25.

66+ can cover a much wider age range than any of the other options - especially as the next biggest range, 0-15, will clearly exclude drivers.

it's also worth bearing in mind that people in the oldest age bracket are possibly more likely to die in an accident that would not kill someone in their 30s; so all other things being equal (including driver skill) this might push that figure upwards.

spurious · 31-12-2016 12:20pm

BrianD3 wrote:

The medical test process that elderly people have to go through when renewing their licence is flawed, I don't know if it the test itself is too easy to pass or if GPs are bending the rules/giving people the benefit of the doubt as they are reluctant to "put them off the road".

Absolutely. I have a friend whose mother, now deceased, who was to all intents and purposes blind as a bat, partly due to not taking her diabetes medication, but merrily drove to cards at night. A fatal 'elderly person involved' incident happened close to where they lived and I was convinced it was her, but it wasn't.

When her car packed up, a collective sigh of relief ensued, until her dopey son bought her a new car, I mean wtf? Just how stupid are some people.

boardsuser1 · 31-12-2016 12:25pm

Cork has now had 3 elderly drivers driving against the flow of traffic resulting in crashes in the last 3 years.

All were fatal I believe.

Also a 17 year old is seriously injured this morning as a result of an accident a few miles from the fatality in Cork yesterday.

looksee · 31-12-2016 12:26pm

'Old people make up a high proportion of pedestrian fatalities' is this elderly pedestrians being killed by other drivers, or elderly drivers killing pedestrians?

looksee · 31-12-2016 12:34pm

I do think that asking an elderly persons's gp to decide whether they are fit to drive is a bit unreasonable. The gp would lose a lot of trust from a vulnerable person if they put them off the road.

Maybe the job should be taken off gps and an independent doctor should see the elderly person, and recommend a short re-test if necessary.

At the same time, anyone (any age) involved in a traffic incident where they are at fault should be fined an amount to cover the cost of a re-test, and they should be obliged to take a re-test to show they are competent to drive.

rushfan · 31-12-2016 12:34pm

Isambard wrote:

this is ridiculously Ageist. Without commenting on the incidents quoted as no details are yet known of what happened, many drivers in their 80s are likely to be fitter than someone younger who may have diabetes , or a heart problem or indeed a drink/drugs problem.

Or glued to their mobile phone.

magicbastarder · 31-12-2016 12:37pm

looksee wrote: »

I do think that asking an elderly persons's gp to decide whether they are fit to drive is a bit unreasonable. The gp would lose a lot of trust from a vulnerable person if they put them off the road.

exactly; it would drive business towards GPs known to turn a blind eye to people not fit to drive.

Big Bag of Chips · 31-12-2016 12:38pm

Also, at what age does someone become "elderly"? 66+ is a very broad age band. My father is 70 and drives HGVs and PSVs for a living. Still. To England. His employer seems quite happy to employ him.

[Edit: about 3 years ago my father was involved in a "motorway incident" where a pedestrian lost their life. The police obviously took a statement from my dad and questioned him as to the particulars but made it absolutely clear that he was not under arrest, or under caution or in anyway to blame for the incident. But that his eye witness statement would obviously help them. I'm sure most people can come to a conclusion why a pedestrian was on the bank of a motorway waiting for a HGV to pass. But that could have been recorded as 'pedestrian killed by 67 year old driver'....]

I'd be interested to see a break down in figures for fatalities caused by drivers over 80, compared to fatalities caused by drivers under 25.

Hotblack Desiato · 31-12-2016 12:46pm

This issue is only going to get worse due to demographics increasing the elderly population, and isolation in those wonderful one-off McMansions they slaved their whole life to pay off meaning they have to drive to do anything

A doctor as a professional bound by a strong code of ethics should realise that they are doing an unfit patient no favours by signing them off to drive and put their life at risk, they should also realise their duty to protect the public from unfit drivers. However it appears that the moral fibre of too many doctors is lacking.

Any driver of any age involved in an injury accident where medical issues are at play should be investigated and any doctor who signed them off as fit to drive should face a misconduct hearing.

Either get tough, or take the whole process away from family doctors and onto independent medical assessors, your GP can sign you off as fit to drive for 3 years no questions asked but DSP will not take a GP's word for it for patients claiming disability, they use their own independent examiners except for short duration claims.

Preferably do both. Unfortunately this is one of those issues that TDs and especially rural TDs will get their backs up over and there are no votes in protecting the public interest.

TheAnalyst_ · 31-12-2016 12:49pm

I've only ever seen one person drive the wrong way down the motorway and they were well into their 70s if not older.

nhunter100 · 31-12-2016 12:54pm

TheAnalyst_ wrote:

I've only ever seen one person drive the wrong way down the motorway and they were well into their 70s if not older.

I did my truck test 8 years ago. As I was exiting the bypass using the one way slip road, a young female driver drove past me heading down the slip road on to the bypass, . Both the tester and myself were stunned. Stupidity/inability to read signs is not confined to the elderly.

Thepoet85 · 31-12-2016 1:02pm

Would it be reasonable or practical to have anyone who was involved in an accident to re sit their test?

It might be a logistical nightmare, but could certainly help ensure drivers are more cautious on the road, and might reduce the amount of claims that are being pursued.

Haven't thought it through much, but would it work?

TheQuietFella · 31-12-2016 1:13pm

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

I've only ever seen one person drive the wrong way down the motorway and they were well into their 70s if not older.

The man who died on the M8 yesterday did exactly that!

Turtle_ · 31-12-2016 1:14pm

Youth and arrogance are a danger. But young drivers get better over time. Old drivers get worse. And you absolutely have to factor in accidents per mile driven. Fatalities aren't the extent of it either, I often see elderly people bumping off parked cars, or driving well below the speed limit out in the middle of the road. Sure, they aren't killing anyone, but that's not good enough.

The population of elderly people is increasing. It's not okay to just ignore the problem. It's a very difficult thing to ask family to put their loved one off the road.

The license renewal process should involve a medical with an RSA doctor, preferably a geriatrician. Can the person hear acceptably well? Can they see well enough? Do a mini mental state exam. What's their physical strength like? Have a driving simulator, at a random point have the screen flash "STOP". Do they stop quickly enough? Some of these things can be fixed quite easily, but even other things could lead to early detection of dementia, or loss of strength. That would improve quality of life for the person.

TheQuietFella · 31-12-2016 1:17pm

What I'm trying to say is there are age limits as to when you can drive,
age limits as to drive certain categories of vehicle and even limits to driving
under the influence. Should there then be a limit as to an age where you are
not allowed drive given the circumstances of yesterdays deaths.

Allinall · 31-12-2016 1:18pm

KC161 wrote: »

Cork has now had 3 elderly drivers driving against the flow of traffic resulting in crashes in the last 3 years.

All were fatal I believe.

Also a 17 year old is seriously injured this morning as a result of an accident a few miles from the fatality in Cork yesterday.

By following the OPs utterly wired and flawed logic we should now ban driving in Cork.

TheQuietFella · 31-12-2016 1:20pm

Allinall wrote: »

By following the OPs utterly wired and flawed logic we should now ban driving in Cork.

Given the size of Cork that's probably all that were detected!

boardsuser1 · 31-12-2016 1:30pm

Allinall wrote: »

By following the OPs utterly wired and flawed logic we should now ban driving in Cork.

:rolleyes:

Isambard · 31-12-2016 2:04pm

also to consider is that many of the people who die over 66 may well have been passengers, and are more likely to die of their injuries than a younger fitter person. Statistics need qualifying

Also, can we please stop referring to people over 66 as "old". It's not the case anymore and it's ageist to be referring to them thus.

Mrs OBumble · 31-12-2016 3:46pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is there are age limits as to when you can drive,
age limits as to drive certain categories of vehicle and even limits to driving
under the influence. Should there then be a limit as to an age where you are
not allowed drive given the circumstances of yesterdays deaths.

No.

I have an aunt who's now (a good few years later) 90, and is in better shape than my mother was at 70.

An arbitrary age limit would have put one off the road far too soon, and the other far too late.

All elderly people should have care planning in place well before it's needed, which involves giving thought to how they will get around once they cannot drive any more, so that the person knows that they have options. I know more than a few elderly people who "put themselves off the road" before their doctors did - because they had the option.

Elderly Drivers.

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