Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 12:15PM

Jaden wrote: »

It was a straight red card offence. Mayo should have had 14 men on the pitch from there on. It was deliberate, unprovoked and dangerous. Setting out to flatten a guy who doesn't see you coming, for no reason, other than the fact that you can, is at the very, very least a black card, and well justifiable as a red.

More grandstanding. It was a shoulder after the ball was gone - that isn't a red card in the rulebook.

Jaden wrote: »

You may disagree, that's OK. But Mayo got away with this, swings and roundabouts. Switch the colour of the Jerseys for this incident, and I could see the terms "Thuggish" and "Assault" being bandied about.

The rulebook disagrees. You are trying to invent a rule here and attach buzzwords onto it for effect. I repeat, it was a yellow card offence in the rule book. Case closed.

Jaden wrote: »

He was down for, I think nearly 4 minutes. Enough time to recover from the initial bang. But yeah, I thought it was odd they way he took off too, given how long he'd stayed down. I can only assume the sponge used by the Physio was wrapped in rosary beads from knock.

Knock? Ravings. We can assume he was trying to get the guy in trouble by overplaying the incident and faking injury, he does this often. Again, I don't hold it against him, it was fair game.

Jaden wrote: »

Absolutely agreed, Coopers card was the correct call. I'm not excusing what he did, you misunderstand, I'm attempting to provide a context. Looking at specific incidents in isolation is sometimes not the most enlightening thing to do. I think it fair to conclude that getting flattened one moment in a game is going to affect your temperament, at least in the short term. But every player is responsible for marshalling himself in these situations. No-one else is accountable, the failing is his, and his alone.

This in no way whatsoever excuses or justifies his subsequent actions. It would have been unjust if he hadn't have walked.

But then I can point to James McCarthy blocking every run Doherty made up to this point as a factor in his actions also. He is a victim here too :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

The stuff some of you lads come out with is genuinely cringe-worthy.

Robeman · 21-12-2016 12:26PM

km79 wrote: »

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/why-there-was-nothing-shocking/106870?utm_content=bufferc2ed7&utm_medium=Social+organic&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
An alternative view

Three key facts ignored here

Under H & C mayo lost to the same "greatest ever" DUblin team after a replay. Only difference was that in Semi rather than final. So what exactly makes this year a stunning success and last year a complete disaster.

Brian Clough took over a very successful Leeds side which had won leagues \ cups under Don Revie. If Leeds were a confirmed team of serial losers his approach would have been fine coming from a successful manager.

Journalist also ignore fact that Holmes only mayo manager to have actually won a national title managing mayo since 1970.
He also ignore fact that H & C also have an U21 title in the bag as managers.

He describes mayo team as "relatively successful" and ignore actual success of H & C.

H & C took over a team that had won nothing and did not butter them up by pretending otherwise. They told it as it was. The team had won nothing. If this got some players backs up it does seem to point to some false pride and I will say it again oversized "egos"

Godge · 21-12-2016 12:32PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well I just indicated where you did in fact get a massive call go your way - one that if awarded, changes the end result unquestionably. I mean how much more cut and dried to you want it?

Doesn't this point only underline the points made by Holmes about Mayo players externalising the defeats and refusing to look at themselves? If the supporters and fans are doing likewise, there isn't much hope.

It is not just a Mayo thing. Think of all the hard luck stories, bad refereeing decisions etc. that afflicted Dublin from 1995 to 2011, when the reality was the players just weren't good enough.

Mayo aren't going to win an All-Ireland until their players and supporters stop whinging about referees and dirty opponents and instead turn their focus on to what they are doing themselves to change themselves, to improve players, to produce better players etc.

Robeman · 21-12-2016 12:34PM

Jaden wrote: »

It's not that their players are miles ahead of Mayo as individuals, it's that they play as a team substantially better.

* Dublin have better players. Not by as much as some people think, but they have a glut of scoring forwards, something Mayo have a massive lack of.

* Dublin have a better management system. In the last 4 years, Dublin have had 3 SAMs, Mayo have had 3 management teams.

* Dublin are a team, Mayo's cohesiveness is a major talking point.

In 10 competitive games since 2013, Mayo have failed to win a single game against Dublin. They are simply being dominated. Some of the margins were tight, no question, but consistently coming out on the wrong side of competitive contests should set alarm bells off.

All valid points

kilns · 21-12-2016 12:40PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

The stuff some of you lads come out with is genuinely cringe-worthy.

To be fair the only cringe worthy thing is blaming forces outside of Mayos control for consistently losing. It is not the reason

Cartman78 · 21-12-2016 12:42PM

Robeman wrote: »

Cartman78 wrote: »

Is there any scenario in which you would be happy and/or stop writing drivel about egos?

eg. If AOS lifts Sam above his head in Croke Park next September will you still be crapping on about how he should be dropped for being an "ego"???

If go go back and read the senarios then you will see what I will do in this situation.

One thing I will never do again is write on this Board. I will retire in shame.

On the other hand what will you do if once again next year this "ego" dominated panel wins nothing.

Will you reconsider you current views.

I'm assuming what every Mayo person on the planet wants is for the team to actually win the fupping thing in our lifetime.....99.9999% of us couldn't give a flying fcuk how this is achieved....every team has big personalities (or egos if you prefer)...if the manager/managers can't deal with these and harness the talent then they need to move on and let someone else do the job.

Is Rochford the man for the job? The jury is still very much out at this point in time - obviously if we'd beaten Dublin or lost to the likes of Fermanagh then things would be a lot more clear cut.

The recent media circus (and the debate on here) is sad to witness imho - Holmes and Connelly coming out in the media now achieves absolutely nothing. Sure, I can appreciate their hurt/anger but their actions now are purely self-serving. It seems that some people would prefer to be proved right in their conspiracy theories rather than see the current team win.

km79 · 21-12-2016 12:56PM

2 more articles in the indo today
Another from breheny
And one from O Rourke attacking O Shea

How many is that now 5/6 in 2/3 days
Ridiculous

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 12:56PM

Godge wrote: »

Doesn't this point only underline the points made by Holmes about Mayo players externalising the defeats and refusing to look at themselves? If the supporters and fans are doing likewise, there isn't much hope.

No not really. I mean if the ref gets that right and everything else is the same, they win the all Ireland. So really and truly, how far wrong can they be? I don't believe that the players refuse to look at themselves. If they did, they wouldn't be getting near where they are getting. It just doesn't stack up. Im no players fanboy, but you have to look at it objectively and not take the word of either as gospel. When you do that, you see that what the two guys are claiming, simply doesn't reflect in reality.

Godge wrote: »

It is not just a Mayo thing. Think of all the hard luck stories, bad refereeing decisions etc. that afflicted Dublin from 1995 to 2011, when the reality was the players just weren't good enough.

I don't know of any hard luck stories for Dublin in that period to be honest with you. They were generally beaten soundly when the loss came - like mayo throughout the 00s. Can you give any examples?
However, the thing is you don't have to be the best team to win a trophy (Kerry 2014, Dublin 2011, Donegal 1992 etc). You just have to win on the day. Mayo came close to doing that a few times - Id argue done enough to do it, had the rules of the game been adjudicated more soundly. Surely that is a reasonable point and worthy of genuine discussion? Guys, generally fans from the opposing team, tend to knock that. But that doesn't mean they are right.

Godge wrote: »

Mayo aren't going to win an All-Ireland until their players and supporters stop whinging about referees and dirty opponents and instead turn their focus on to what they are doing themselves to change themselves, to improve players, to produce better players etc.

Sorry, but the dubs whinge more than anyone when something doesn't go their way. 2012. The several Connolly incidents. Lee Keegan being, frankly, too good for their best player. It hasn't stopped them winning. Indeed tyrone before them, never stopped whinging in the 00s. Again, they won plenty.

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 01:03PM

kilns wrote: »

To be fair the only cringe worthy thing is blaming forces outside of Mayos control for consistently losing. It is not the reason

Nobody claims it is the reason why we aren't the best team in the country, we are pointing out that we would have won a trophy - there is a difference there.

To be honest it is a fair observation for any objective gaa person. I think the way some Dublin fans seem to rage against this idea is what I find interesting. It seems to be down to an inability/unwillingness to give any other team any credit, if it means admitting that for a second, they weren't the better team or the best team or unmatched etc.

Like consider this - their opponents should have had a free in front of the posts for a nailed on technical foul in the last second of the game. Yet not one Dublin poster has been able to admit even a bit of luck on their part, or that their opponents were unlucky. I mean alarm bells should be ringing there man.
It is a strange quirk. It is reminiscent of that group of insufferable man utd fans that tended to not know that much about the team, or indeed football, but rather just jumped on their success and could see nothing else but their own team.

Robeman · 21-12-2016 01:04PM

Cartman78 wrote: »

I'm assuming what every Mayo person on the planet wants is for the team to actually win the fupping thing in our lifetime.....99.9999% of us couldn't give a flying fcuk how this is achieved....every team has big personalities (or egos if you prefer)...if the manager/managers can't deal with these and harness the talent then they need to move on and let someone else do the job.

Is Rochford the man for the job? The jury is still very much out at this point in time - obviously if we'd beaten Dublin or lost to the likes of Fermanagh then things would be a lot more clear cut.

The recent media circus (and the debate on here) is sad to witness imho - Holmes and Connelly coming out in the media now achieves absolutely nothing. Sure, I can appreciate their hurt/anger but their actions now are purely self-serving. It seems that some people would prefer to be proved right in their conspiracy theories rather than see the current team win.

Lee keegan is a big personality in my opinion but he is no "ego" There is a big difference. Otherwise I am with you 100% on the sentiment.

SR has to man up this year and take some hard decisions that he will carry the can for. Absolutely nothing to be gained from changing him 2017 and 2018 (just as nothing was gained from changing H & C).

The whole point of this media circus is to get rid of the "Egos" who held back H & C last year and SR this year in delivering an All Ireland. It is also to make sure that the "outside influences" who have been detrimental to Mayo football this past 5\6 years are pushed outseide and stay there. These "outside influences are probably more harmful to mayo football than the "egos" as without them they would not have become so inflated.

Robeman · 21-12-2016 01:06PM

The great Colm has spoken

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/if-hes-serious-about-being-a-top-footballer-he-has-to-put-football-first-colm-orourke-on-criticism-of-aidan-oshea-35311519.html

Robeman · 21-12-2016 01:10PM

The Great Martin speaks a second time

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/martin-breheny-dont-lecture-holmes-and-connelly-on-loyalty-to-mayo-football-theyve-done-it-a-huge-service-35310475.html

Jaden · 21-12-2016 01:27PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

More grandstanding. It was a shoulder after the ball was gone - that isn't a red card in the rulebook.

The rulebook disagrees. You are trying to invent a rule here and attach buzzwords onto it for effect. I repeat, it was a yellow card offence in the rule book. Case closed.

If you don't wish to consider the action on Cooper as Cynical, and ergo a black card, so be it.

If going strictly by the rules, I feel that this is relevant.
5.17 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.

You may not feel the same way. You seem to have discounted the incident as neither dangerous or cynical. I would disagree, and see a very, very strong case for either, if not both.

I'll put it a different way, if a black card had been issued, would you think that unjust?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Knock? Ravings. We can assume he was trying to get the guy in trouble by overplaying the incident and faking injury, he does this often. Again, I don't hold it against him, it was fair game.

That's not an assumption, that's an opinion. You are taking conjecture and attempting to pass it as fact. Neither of us understand fully he did what he did.

Let me state categorically, that I believe feigning injury has no place in our game. It seems you are OK with it, but I'm not.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But then I can point to James McCarthy blocking every run Doherty made up to this point as a factor in his actions also. He is a victim here too :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

The stuff some of you lads come out with is genuinely cringe-worthy.

And now we deviate from the incident in hand. Wandering off the point doesn't help.

I think this is about as far as we can reasonably take this, given the circumstances.

kilns · 21-12-2016 01:47PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

To be fair the only cringe worthy thing is blaming forces outside of Mayos control for consistently losing. It is not the reason

Nobody claims it is the reason why we aren't the best team in the country, we are pointing out that we would have won a trophy - there is a difference there.

To be honest it is a fair observation for any objective gaa person. I think the way some Dublin fans seem to rage against this idea is what I find interesting. It seems to be down to an inability/unwillingness to give any other team any credit, if it means admitting that for a second, they weren't the better team or the best team or unmatched etc.

Like consider this - their opponents should have had a free in front of the posts for a nailed on technical foul in the last second of the game. Yet not one Dublin poster has been able to admit even a bit of luck on their part, or that their opponents were unlucky. I mean alarm bells should be ringing there man.
It is a strange quirk. It is reminiscent of that group of insufferable man utd fans that tended to not know that much about the team, or indeed football, but rather just jumped on their success and could see nothing else but their own team.

What one referee decision directly stopped Mayo winning a trophy, you can not say if X player got a black card in a game Mayo would have won etc.....
Unless Mayo had a legitimate goal or point ruled out the argument is invalid, there are too many variables to consider
Referees have been fooled by Cillian OConnor for years with his diving so Mayo too have had the rub of the green from Referees

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 01:59PM

kilns wrote: »

What one referee decision directly stopped Mayo winning a trophy, you can not say if X player got a black card in a game Mayo would have won etc.....
Unless Mayo had a legitimate goal or point ruled out the argument is invalid, there are too many variables to consider
Referees have been fooled by Cillian OConnor for years with his diving so Mayo too have had the rub of the green from Referees

Normally I would say yes, but when it is a, literally, last second free in front of the posts in a tied match, I would say no. That decision literally does cost them the game.

As for Cillian O'Connor, he dives no more than most high level intercounty forwards - Diarmuid Connolly's dive in the replay being a case in point. However, that is beside the point.

Why didn't you respond to the points about Dublin in 2012 or Connolly? It isn't really fair to expect me to be responding to your points when you cherry pick what you want to respond to.

kilns · 21-12-2016 02:09PM

That last free you mentioned is not clear cut, any Mayo supporter would say it was definite free any Dublin supporter would say it wasnt. That just biased eyes look at it. A neutral would be hard pressed to make a clear call on it
COC dives alot more than other forwards, I would say he is the biggest cheat/expert at winning cheap frees off a referee
But all in all decisions with referees go for and against teams and in sport you make your own luck sometimes. If Mayo had at least one quality forward maybe they would not be blaming referees for consistently being second best.

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 02:10PM

Jaden wrote: »

If you don't wish to consider the action on Cooper as Cynical, and ergo a black card, so be it.

I don't consider it cynical, I consider it a stupid act. Nor is it a black card in the rule book.

Jaden wrote: »

If going strictly by the rules, I feel that this is relevant.
5.17 To behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.

Then surely Connolly grabbing the Westmeath player in a headlock falls into this category also? We both know guys get shunted and dunted after the ball all the time. They aren't red cards and neither was this. You are showing yourself up with this point.

Jaden wrote: »

You may not feel the same way. You seem to have discounted the incident as neither dangerous or cynical. I would disagree, and see a very, very strong case for either, if not both.

Well your opinion is your own, but Im just sticking to the rule book. You don't get to redefine the rules with your feelings Im afraid. Maybe gaa isn't for you?

Jaden wrote: »

I'll put it a different way, if a black card had been issued, would you think that unjust?

100% unjust. Because it was a yellow card, not a black. Although a few minutes ago, you were claiming it was a red. So it is both a red and a black now? Stop digging man.

Jaden wrote: »

That's not an assumption, that's an opinion. You are taking conjecture and attempting to pass it as fact. Neither of us understand fully he did what he did.

I 100%, fully understand what he did. Because anyone who understands how the game works should be able to see that. Your admitting you cant kind of undermines your whole post.

Poor_old_gill · 21-12-2016 02:13PM

Lads the horror that some seem to be expressing upon reading criticism of Aidan O Shea is almost as dramatic as that of a modern day impression of a Victorian woman.

The lad has a lot of talent and has been threatening to scale the heights for a few years yet has not kicked on. This can be due to several factors but I'd imagine the many distractions/image building endeavours that he allows himself get caught up in cant help.

This kind of criticism of underutilised talent happens in every country, in every sport.

kilns · 21-12-2016 02:16PM

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Lads the horror that some seem to be expressing upon reading criticism of Aidan O Shea is almost as dramatic as that of a modern day impression of a Victorian woman.

The lad has a lot of talent and has been threatening to scale the heights for a few years yet has not kicked on. This can be due to several factors but I'd imagine the many distractions/image building endeavours that he allows himself get caught up in cant help.

This kind of criticism of underutilised talent happens in every country, in every sport.

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped? He should have been for the replay imo.
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan. JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

TCDStudent1 · 21-12-2016 02:19PM

kilns wrote: »

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped? He should have been for the replay imo.
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan. JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

Its easy for JG to drop Brogan because he has such talent on the bench. Mayo drop A. O'Sé and they immediately have an issue on who would replace him.

Poor_old_gill · 21-12-2016 02:31PM

kilns wrote: »

He consistently under performs on the big occassion for Mayo but the difference is would he ever be dropped? He should have been for the replay imo.
Who is Dublins most high profile player in the media - Bernard Brogan. JG had no qualms dropping him for the good of the team because he was not performing

I agree completely- he should have been dropped for the replay

Poor_old_gill · 21-12-2016 02:34PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Its easy for JG to drop Brogan because he has such talent on the bench. Mayo drop A. O'Sé and they immediately have an issue on who would replace him.

It's not like a controversial substitution, that had a huge impact on the game, wasnt made by Mayo!

TCDStudent1 · 21-12-2016 02:41PM

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It's not like a controversial substitution, that had a huge impact on the game, wasnt made by Mayo!

But who would you have picked instead of O'Sé? I do not see anybody on the bench that I would start ahead of him.

Jaden · 21-12-2016 02:47PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I don't consider it cynical, I consider it a stupid act. Nor is it a black card in the rule book.

Cynical and Stupid are not mutually exclusive. I agree it was stupid, but I also see it as pretty much the definition of cynical behaviour. If you don't, that's OK.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Then surely Connolly grabbing the Westmeath player in a headlock falls into this category also? We both know guys get shunted and dunted after the ball all the time. They aren't red cards and neither was this. You are showing yourself up with this point.

Probably, but irrelevant to the specific discussion. Let's try and stay on the topic.

You admit that it's a foul, but see nothing more in it. That's OK, I can't persuade you otherwise.

If this foul was cynical, which I believe it to be, and with good reason, then it's a black, not a red.

If it is *also* dangerous, then it's a red. Again, I will restate the blindsiding a player intentionally is dangerous, and merits a red.

We have both seen, on many occasions, more harsh punishments for less than happened here.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well your opinion is your own, but Im just sticking to the rule book. You don't get to redefine the rules with your feelings Im afraid. Maybe gaa isn't for you?

I don't think I'm redefining rules, Cynical = Black, Dangerous = Red. Do we at least agree that that is what the rules state?

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% unjust. Because it was a yellow card, not a black. Although a few minutes ago, you were claiming it was a red. So it is both a red and a black now? Stop digging man.

I'm not making that claim, I'm saying there is a case for either, if you disagree, fine. It's a discussion.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I 100%, fully understand what he did. Because anyone who understands how the game works should be able to see that. Your admitting you cant kind of undermines your whole post.

So there is a 0% Chance that either:
* He was hurt at all.
* He was playing down the clock to slow the game down.

That *seems* to be what you are saying, as you are 100% certain of your assertion, to the point that this is now a fact.

Asserting that you are absolutely certain of the explicit motivations of a player doesn't sound odd to you?

I don't think we're getting anywhere with this. There's probably two-sided reasoning to this though.

rrs · 21-12-2016 02:48PM

Have Mayo improved much since h&c departed.? They were nearly relegated in the League, beaten in Connacht. Stumbled past Fermanagh. Not convincing against Tyrone or Tip.

They played well in the finals but Dublin still won and Dublin were better in 2015, with McCaffrey and O Carroll.

Robeman · 21-12-2016 03:04PM

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I agree completely- he should have been dropped for the replay

Who is to know might have happened as a result of this unthinkable idea. Let us allow our imagination run wild with an outlandish senario that would never happen in real life. This would only happen in fantasy land in a galaxy far far away. It would absolutely never happen in Mayo

Once upon a time

Aidan O Shea was dropped from Mayo team for an All Ireland final.

The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos" and would suggest that they organise a players meeting in lets say the Breaffy club house.

At this meeting the "egos" would propose writing a letter to the county board requesting them to immediately terminate SR as manager and replacing him with a manager of the players choice who would not be subject to any approval or oversight by the county board. (As this is fiction I need to push out the boundry of what happen in real life last year).

After a very limited discussion the "egos" would insist on a secret vote to decide issue. They would distribute the ballot papers, collect and count them. Hey presto motion would be carried Zimbabwe election style.

Mayo county board would cave in as usual and a new manager would be appointed from among "outside influences" who would immediately put Aidan back in the team.

Unfortunately no matter how wild I try to make my imagination run Mayo still lose to Dublin or Kerry or Tyrone. I also tried Donegal, Cork, Meath and Galway but still they lose.

Nobody lived happily ever after.

The End

PARlance · 21-12-2016 03:57PM

Happy Christmas Folks.

Was almost tempted to reply to one or two items of horse**** but 'Tis The Season to be jolly and all that!

MayoAreMagic · 21-12-2016 03:58PM

kilns wrote: »

That last free you mentioned is not clear cut, any Mayo supporter would say it was definite free any Dublin supporter would say it wasnt. That just biased eyes look at it. A neutral would be hard pressed to make a clear call on it

He picks it off the ground. That is against the rules. Cant be any more clear cut. Your choosing to ignore that is your issue. It is a clear technical foul of the ball.

kilns wrote: »

COC dives alot more than other forwards, I would say he is the biggest cheat/expert at winning cheap frees off a referee

I have seen O'Connor go down when being fouled. Like every other forward. I have never once seen him dive i.e. go to ground under no contact -not once. You seem to not like him personally, which seems to be making you zero in on him.

kilns wrote: »

But all in all decisions with referees go for and against teams and in sport you make your own luck sometimes. If Mayo had at least one quality forward maybe they would not be blaming referees for consistently being second best.

You can repeat this rhetoric all you want, it doesn't change the fact that if the foul I have referenced is given - which it should have been - then there is a different all Ireland winner without question. That cant be said for any other incident definitively. That is why you refuse to engage on it, but rather skirt around it. Case closed.

Panrich · 21-12-2016 04:07PM

rrs wrote: »

Have Mayo improved much since h&c departed.? They were nearly relegated in the League, beaten in Connacht. Stumbled past Fermanagh. Not convincing against Tyrone or Tip.

They played well in the finals but Dublin still won and Dublin were better in 2015, with McCaffrey and O Carroll.

No. I think the team needs some new blood next year to keep up. A few of the AI winning U 21 team should be given an extended run in the league. I'm thinking Loftus, Hall and Irwin for a start. Let's see if they have the X factor.

Cartman78 · 21-12-2016 04:09PM

Robeman;102034218
[quote=[/quote]
The "outside influences" would have a meeting with the "egos"

I don't want to sound snarky, but could you please enlighten us as to who or what 'outside influences' you're referring to?

You're seemingly a lot closer to the issue than the rest of us on here so it would be helpful if you stopped talking in riddles and muddying the waters

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Comments