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Pope will vist Ireland in 2018(mod warning in Op)

13567…15

Comments

  • #62
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I'm not Catholic so not bothered, not exactly thrilled he's coming but can see why it would be a big deal to some people. I just hope he makes a proper sincere apology for the way religion has hurt a lot of people. I know we've moved on but it's needed and would help a lot of the victims.


  • #63
    Jimmy Bottlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,931 ✭✭✭Jimmy Bottlehead


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Most people are not blind to reality.
    You talk as if it was 20 years ago, we can live in past realities if we want. But like how times have changed since 1979, the church has not stood still either.
    No one is ignoring anything.

    Living ones life with bitterness based on the past is not a healthy way to live, most can see there has been change and have moved on, living in the past and not moving on is just not good mentally for anyone.

    Actually, not much has changed. Kiddy fiddling still has a blind eye turned to it, as per Catholic rules:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/catholic-bishops-not-obliged-report-clerical-child-abuse-vatican-says

    So yeah. Good old Catholic Church.


  • #64
    blacklilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    Amazing how many people are up in arms about this.

    Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.
    Lets all get real here for a second, whilst an apology is needed, lets all continue to keep our heads in the sand that these terrible abuses are being carried out to young vulnerable children by relatives and people known to them every day of the week in this country.

    I will personally not go to see the pope at whatever event is organised as I'm not religious but for those that are, let them enjoy it.


  • #65
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    If he comes to Derry I'll make a few quid out of him, God bless him

    If he doesn't I'll probably be down money that week, the sky fairy loving ballbag.


  • #66
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »

    How often do you see an actual crowd of a million people in a field?

    You must never have been to the Tubbercurry show when they have the tractor reversing competition.


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  • #67
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »
    Actually, not much has changed. Kiddy fiddling still has a blind eye turned to it, as per Catholic rules:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/catholic-bishops-not-obliged-report-clerical-child-abuse-vatican-says

    So yeah. Good old Catholic Church.

    Maybe if you read all the report from the Guardian...
    Indeed, a church official familiar with the commission on abuse said it was the committee’s position that reporting abuse to civil authorities was a “moral obligation, whether the civil law requires it or not”. The official said the committee would be involved in future training efforts.


  • #68
    IamtheWalrus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭IamtheWalrus


    Not in my name.


  • #69
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated.

    What are the ratios?

    And you're glossing over how it was covered up, how the state was hindered in its investigations, and how they never ended up paying what they were asked to pay in compensation.


  • #70
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.
    The issue is not the fact that the clergy did it, it's the fact the Catholic Church knowingly aided & abetted abusers and murderers for decades, and when called to account for it, blocked and avoided and fought back. And took many years to even acknowledge they had done anything wrong.

    They interfered in the investigation of sexual abuse, being involved in setting up spanish-inquisition style interrogations of victims in an attempt to discredit and intimidate them.

    The Catholic Church still knowingly hides child abusers in its ranks and its own rules, recently updated, continue to shelter child abusers by endorsing its members to break the law and put children in danger.

    That's why people hate the Catholic Church.


  • #71
    ectoraige
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    blacklilly wrote: »
    However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim?

    If the event was held by an organisation who actively and knowingly *chose* to protect paedophiles instead of children, then yes, I would equally oppose it.

    At least the visit is outside of school term, less opportunity for the schools to make a big deal about it.


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  • #72
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.

    The issue isn't the proportion of priests that are paedophiles. The issue is that the organisation that they are part of actively covered up this abuse for as far as records go back and still refuse to participate fully in inquiries into the abuse and cover up.

    And Pope Francis, the undisputed head of the church, a head of state with powers greater than any other head of state in the world, whose word is literally canon law, has not made any meaningful stride toward rectifying the situation. That's why people don't want him here.


  • #73
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Ouch blacklily.

    Pretty uniform response.


  • #74
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage talking to victims of abuse: “Before God and his people I express my sorrow for the sins and grave crimes of clerical sexual abuse committed against you. And I humbly ask forgiveness,” he said at a private mass this morning at the Vatican. He also apologised for “the sins of omission on the part of Church leaders”.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

    The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.


  • #75
    blacklilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    seamus wrote: »
    The issue is not the fact that the clergy did it, it's the fact the Catholic Church knowingly aided & abetted abusers and murderers for decades, and when called to account for it, blocked and avoided and fought back.

    The Catholic Church still knowingly hides child abusers in its ranks and its own rules, recently updated, continue to shelter child abusers by endorsing its members to break the law and put children in danger.

    That's why people hate the Catholic Church.

    And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

    My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.


  • #76
    blacklilly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    Glenster wrote: »
    Ouch blacklily.

    Pretty uniform response.

    Don't worry, reading posts online don't generally hurt me but I'll carry a plaster with me in future......just in case


  • #77
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Glenster wrote: »
    The issue isn't the proportion of priests that are paedophiles. The issue is that the organisation that they are part of actively covered up this abuse for as far as records go back and still refuse to participate fully in inquiries into the abuse and cover up.

    And Pope Francis, the undisputed head of the church, a head of state with powers greater than any other head of state in the world, whose word is literally canon law, has not made any meaningful stride toward rectifying the situation. That's why people don't want him here.

    That is totally false.
    One of the two Irish abuse victims to meet Francis, Marie Kane, 43, told RTE’s News at One that the Pope was “very humble man, very warm” which made it “very easy to sit and to talk”. She said: “It was important for me to explain from a survivor’s point of view that it’s important, the Church needs to change. It can’t have certain cardinals in power... that covered up abuse and silenced victims. It’s very hard to think you could go back into a Church that still has these people in power.”
    Ms Kane told The Irish Times that she asked Francis to remove Cardinal Sean Brady as Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland due to his handling of a 1975 clerical child-abuse inquiry into the paedophile Father Brendan Smyth. Allegations were not reported to police and Smyth continued to abuse children before being jailed in 1994.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

    Cardinal Brady was replaced by Pope Francis.


  • #78
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage talking to victims of abuse: “Before God and his people I express my sorrow for the sins and grave crimes of clerical sexual abuse committed against you. And I humbly ask forgiveness,” he said at a private mass this morning at the Vatican. He also apologised for “the sins of omission on the part of Church leaders”.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

    The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.

    I don't want an apology, I want co-operation into the inquiries and I want restitution for the victims of physical and sexual abuse. I also want transparency as to the controls that the church is putting in place around the interaction between vulnerable children and priests in the future to ensure this doesn't happen again.


  • #79
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    blacklilly wrote: »
    And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

    My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.

    They would have to hate their families to be consistent.


  • #80
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage
    2 years ago at this stage. More than 20 years after the scale of what was happening came to light.
    The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.
    And mindless Catholics are so willing to pretend it never happened, or even worse, that something has been done about it and it's "in the past". There are still child abusers in the church. Active priests, bishops and cardinals who have committed acts of barbarity, still being protected by the Catholic church.

    The Pope should be visiting every country on his planet, and begging forgiveness from the populations in those countries for the evil that his organisation committed in those countries, in the name of self-protection.

    A mealy-mouthed one-off apology is not good enough - especially when it's completely hollow. You cannot apologise for hiding child abusers, while still hiding child abusers.

    Nothing short of a full revelation of the Vatican's private files to every law enforcement agency in the world, is enough to "atone" for the sins of the church. Expose all of the known paedophiles in your organisation, clean out the filth.

    Then you might be taken seriously.


  • #81
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Glenster wrote: »
    I don't want an apology, I want co-operation into the inquiries and I want restitution for the victims of physical and sexual abuse. I also want transparency as to the controls that the church is putting in place around the interaction between vulnerable children and priests in the future to ensure this doesn't happen again.

    Do you go to church?

    If not, then how do you know nothing has changed?


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  • #82
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    seamus wrote: »
    2 years ago at this stage. More than 20 years after the scale of what was happening came to light.
    And mindless Catholics are so willing to pretend it never happened, or even worse, that something has been done about it and it's "in the past". There are still child abusers in the church. Active priests, bishops and cardinals who have committed acts of barbarity, still being protected by the Catholic church.

    The Pope should be visiting every country on his planet, and begging forgiveness from the populations in those countries for the evil that his organisation committed in those countries, in the name of self-protection.

    A mealy-mouthed one-off apology is not good enough - especially when it's completely hollow. You cannot apologise for hiding child abusers, while still hiding child abusers.

    Nothing short of a full revelation of the Vatican's private files to every law enforcement agency in the world, is enough to "atone" for the sins of the church. Expose all of the known paedophiles in your organisation, clean out the filth.

    Then you might be taken seriously.


    Who here says it never happened?

    Some people will never be happy whatever the church does.


  • #83
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    RobertKK wrote: »
    That is totally false.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

    Cardinal Brady was replaced by Pope Francis.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/251110

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lack-of-vatican-co-operation-over-child-sex-abuse-led-to-closure-of-embassy-1.469354

    Not word one about cardinal Pell avoiding questions over accusations over cover ups in Australia from the Vatican for years. But what else should we expect?


  • #84
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    blacklilly wrote: »
    And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

    My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.
    Your point is flawed. Most people aren't a member of any groups or even families who are shielding paedophiles and allowing abuse to continue.

    Being a member of a family doesn't suddenly make me part of any organisation of families.

    If I was a member of an organisation that it turned out was shielding paedophiles, I'd be the first one to call out those who were being shielded or walk away if I'm just an "ordinary" member.


  • #85
    PTH2009
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,196 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    Garth Brooks won't play here in 2018 cause he will feel out staged with the pope coming here lol

    The GAA will call off there games the weekend of the popes visit, buses from every corner of Ireland will arrive for it

    Not really religious but I mite make the trip as it may be a once In a lifetime thing

    Was 1979 really that crazy ??


  • #86
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Glenster wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/251110

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lack-of-vatican-co-operation-over-child-sex-abuse-led-to-closure-of-embassy-1.469354

    Not word one about cardinal Pell avoiding questions over accusations over cover ups in Australia from the Vatican for years. But what else should we expect?

    Deflection as an abuse victim asked for Cardinal Brady to be replaced and he was replaced.
    Which you did not acknowledge.


  • #87
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    I not religious but it will bring a LOT of tourism and attention on Ireland.
    Why? Does he have a huge entourage?
    Winterlong wrote: »
    2.5 million turned out to see JP2 in 1979.
    Doubt there will be so many this time round.
    There might be as many there. just half of them might be protesting.


  • #88
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,911 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Who here says it never happened?

    Some people will never be happy whatever the church does.

    Is that why it has done as little as it can get away with to help resolve the problem?


  • #89
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    seamus wrote: »
    Your point is flawed. Most people aren't a member of any groups or even families who are shielding paedophiles and allowing abuse to continue.

    Being a member of a family doesn't suddenly make me part of any organisation of families.

    If I was a member of an organisation that it turned out was shielding paedophiles, I'd be the first one to call out those who were being shielded or walk away if I'm just an "ordinary" member.

    How do you know if a family member or a blood relation is not a paedophile. Paedophile don't exactly advertise to the public they abuse minors.


  • #90
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Bubbaclaus wrote: »
    I always found it interesting how not entertaining a cult filled with pedophiles and various forms of abuse is considered "atheist whinging".

    Is child abuse not a major issue for theists or something? Because that is what you are implying.

    Paedophilia bad.

    M'kay.


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  • #91
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,911 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Deflection as an abuse victim asked for Cardinal Brady to be replaced and he was replaced.
    Which you did not acknowledge.


    What is there to acknowledge? He finally did the right thing in one instance after a personal plea from a victim? Why did he wait for a personal plea? Why did he not act before this? Why did his predecessors not act?


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