Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is feminism. Not feeling they have to conform to unreasonable gender roles such as always being the breadwinner.

You agree with it but don't see it as feminism.

I see the 1970s Mens Liberation Movement as being the main figurehead for telling men that nobody expected them to live up to masculine stereotypes, thus popularising the concept. Put a different way, the movement wished to make them aware of the potential "costs of masculinity" when one adheres to certain stereotyped traditional roles (* Messner 1998). It was this idea that found traction in 70s academia that offered young men an alternate viewpoint on what was possible as regards breaking free of the rigidly defined roles prior to that time.

Of course, when I say Mens Liberation, I am specifically referring to the egalitarian incarnation of it, and NOT the anti-feminist faction that broke away from it in the late 70s to form what we now today call the MRA ( "Red Pill" and all those different manosphere groupings etc). Those ideals of casting aside traditional male roles espoused by the Mens Lib movement made their way into the mainstream from that point in the mid 1970s. It is why we would today see it as common sense, rather than as part of the philosophical foundations of a movement. Indeed, I would imagine most parents tell their children not to subscribe to stereotypes, it is good life advice and one might say common sense. But, you would never see them (parents, or anybody else) stating that it was part of a particular ideology. Things have gone long past that point.

So, to bring this all back home, basically what the Rubberbandits were talking about was not feeling under pressure to conform to any stereotypes. They called it feminism, however, I believe it comes from the Mens Lib movement that popularised it in the US for young men. However, I would not state that men need the ideals of the egalitarian wing of the 70s Mens Lib movement as a catchall for solving their problems. For this reason, I would have also disagreed with the Rubberbandits if they said "young lads need 1970s Mens Lib in their lives". Yes, I think avoiding traditional stereotypes is good advice. Yes, I think it might help some people. But, do I see it as a bulwark against male suicide? Unfortunately not. They are many other factors at play there, gender roles, if it features there at all, is probably way down the list. I don't fault the chap for getting the conversation out there, in fact anything that opens up a wider discussion on it is good. I do not agree with how it was framed, though.

Like I said in my previous post, ideologies for serious matters like these should be kept at the door. I do not think shoehorning them into the debate over the rates of male suicide will come to any good.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm always disappointed that the mad aul bints on the internet are thought to be the proper feminists and actual feminist ideas, like freeing men and women from gender roles, are seen as something other than feminism.

Just to be clear, I do not conflate the zany ideas of third wave or fourth wave (Tumblr/Twitter clicktivism and the likes) as being a major part of feminism in general. Nor do I believe it represents the majority of people who would identify as feminist

* Messner, M. A. (1998). The Limits of “The Male Sex Role” An Analysis of the Men's Liberation and Men's Rights Movements' Discourse. Gender & Society, 12(3), 255-276. Chicago