Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

the_syco · 17-11-2016 04:59PM

hytrogen wrote: »

As a man who loves the women beyond what philanthropy describes in novels, I definitely think this whole neo-feminism needs to be put to bed with a man leading the negotiations between the sheets?

This makes you sound like a weak man.

nomdeboardie · 17-11-2016 05:26PM

hytrogen wrote: »

As a man who loves the women beyond what philanthropy describes in novels, I definitely think this whole neo-feminism needs to be put to bed with a man leading the negotiations between the sheets?

So how would that go, I wonder?

Man: Woman, we will now make love
Woman: No, no – hytrogen says I must stay pure!
Man: &*#* you, hytrogen!

nomdeboardie · 17-11-2016 05:27PM

By the way, when is MGTOWIE on? :P

ancapailldorcha · 17-11-2016 09:24PM

nomdeboardie wrote: »

So how would that go, I wonder?

Man: Woman, we will now make love
Woman: No, no – hytrogen says I must stay pure!
Man: &*#* you, hytrogen!

nomdeboardie wrote: »

By the way, when is MGTOWIE on? :P

Knock this off please.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-11-2016 09:25AM

silverharp wrote:

...you are not far off saying that fitness doesn't matter that much and it will all work out somehow.

Even though I repeatedly said that the successful candidates should at least be able to pass the tests to do the job?

silverharp wrote:

I take P's point you ought to adjust your posting style , "fellas" and "gals" or men and women, its not difficult.

I can't be the only one to be amused at the idea that gender pronouns are important all of a sudden. Strange how pronouns tend to matter more when you disagree with the person's point.

But I don't want to cause offender so well stick to men and women.

silverharp wrote:

in fairness I have not used the word "shun" dating but I would imagine that they view themselves as being priced out of the market , Im sure they date but it doesn't move on to the "picket fence " and 2.5.

I'm using the word shun because I think we all agree that 'dropping out of society' is a hysterical way to describe men who do everything in normal society, except date women.

silverharp wrote:

On a group level this has to be true although I am not sure what you mean by "fixing all and any problems experienced by men" is that dripping with sarcasm? . Probably its not so binary as "dropping out of dating" its that their lives are not organised or financially secure enough for them to consider having a family seriously and maybe simply "shunned" by women as being not up to muster Its a society issue probably but so far feminists havnt run with it because they are too busy trying to take down the patriarchy 'n stuff.

It was dripping with sarcasm. The solutions for men are the exact same solutions for women.

So far in this discussion the men in this thread have identified the number of male teachers and doctors as problems. They also identified educating men about careers in teaching and medicine as solutions. When discussing female firefighters nobody even suggested the very same solution as they identified for men -telling them about the career option and facilitating them to prepare for the career.

That way there would be no argument for gender quotas if everyone has a real opportunity to get into the career they want (aptitude permitting).

The solutions are the same for men and women. Unfortunately it takes gender fuelled outrage to get some people's attention on these types of topics. That's grand if you can use the outrage to get the work done. Otherwise it's just outrage for the sake of outrage.

silverharp · 18-11-2016 11:20AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was dripping with sarcasm. The solutions for men are the exact same solutions for women.

So far in this discussion the men in this thread have identified the number of male teachers and doctors as problems. They also identified educating men about careers in teaching and medicine as solutions. When discussing female firefighters nobody even suggested the very same solution as they identified for men -telling them about the career option and facilitating them to prepare for the career.

That way there would be no argument for gender quotas if everyone has a real opportunity to get into the career they want (aptitude permitting).

The solutions are the same for men and women. Unfortunately it takes gender fuelled outrage to get some people's attention on these types of topics. That's grand if you can use the outrage to get the work done. Otherwise it's just outrage for the sake of outrage.

there was no reason for the sarcasm because it wasn't a point that anyone was making. If we are just down to doctors and teachers then leave the quota thing entirely , just free competition and give all kids in school career guidance leaflets saying choose whatever you want to do. There is no reason to have it in your head that there should be more female fighters as there are good reasons why there aren't that many in the first place, there is no problem to fix. If on the other hand there were no female accountants one would wonder why that was happening. if on the other hand woman competed and won every medical college place one could argue that there maybe some downside there because you would need to train more doctors to get the work done and training doctors is very expensive

"solutions are the same" would be to stop pressuring companies and the government to have quotas and advancing women because they are women, by doing so you go beyond fair competition and artificially push men down the social structure which will lead to more men "dropping out" than would otherwise be the case.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-11-2016 11:44AM

silverharp wrote:

there was no reason for the sarcasm because it wasn't a point that anyone was making. If we are just down to doctors and teachers then leave the quota thing entirely , just free competition and give all kids in school career guidance leaflets saying choose whatever you want to do.

Now you're getting it.

silverharp wrote:

There is no reason to have it in your head that there should be more female fighters as there are good reasons why there aren't that many in the first place, there is no problem to fix.

Now you stopped getting it again. One if the reasons for the lack of female fire fighters is the lack of role models. That's the main good case I see for quotas. If there we're equal opportunities for boys and girls to see firefighters of both genders and the career paths were made clear to them, there wouldn't be any good argument for quotas.

silverharp wrote:

If on the other hand there were no female accountants one would wonder why that was happening. if on the other hand woman competed and won every medical college place one could argue that there maybe some downside there because you would need to train more doctors to get the work done and training doctors is very expensive

I get your accountant point but I don't get the doctor point. Why would you need to train extra doctors if all the college places were filled by women?

silverharp wrote:

"solutions are the same" would be to stop pressuring companies and the government to have quotas and advancing women because they are women, by doing so you go beyond fair competition and artificially push men down the social structure which will lead to more men "dropping out" than would otherwise be the case.

Please stop saying these men are dropping out. They're just not getting involved in romantic relationships and choosing to be bachelors. They're not living self sufficient in a hut in the woods. 'Dropping out of society is at keat pretty inaccurate way to phrase it.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-11-2016 11:46AM

*dropping G out if society is at least an inaccurate way to describe what's happening. Not that anyone has provided any evidence that there are more bachelors right now, let alone that it's caused by gender quotas in firefighters.

silverharp · 18-11-2016 11:52AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Now you're getting it. Now you stopped getting it again

I stopped reading, respond like an adult or don't bother

pumpkin4life · 18-11-2016 12:02PM

Lamentabli sane wrote: »

Men dropping out of society is a sore sight to behold. Men were born to be leaders, to conquer, to create and uphold what is good. They cannot simply drop out, it is in a way a dereliction of their duty.

Radical feminism has made things very awkward for men. They no longer know who they are. Many turn to pursuing pleasure as their life's goal, others still are drowning in despair. The good qualities of masculinity such as fortitude, chivalry, logic and being downright energetic are ridiculed and suppressed, while the dark side, the sexual drive, has been given free reign with no conditions attached. Feminism has done something which I doubt even its founders were able to comprehend.

We are living in a time of horrible social decay and moral compromise. Few things which are beautiful, wholesome and pure remain intact. Movements such as MGTOW are the fruits, not the causes. We have women butchering their own children and complaining they have to go overseas to have the carcass of their own child savagely dismembered. Fornication is rife, people do not take their marriage vows seriously, children are moving from one "uncle" to another. People are obsessed with themselves, sometimes burning with self-love. The West is in a putrid moral state.

This will only get worse for the following reason: people have abandoned God. They want to make their own morality, destroying themselves in the process. They lack the ability to think because they have taken authentic Religion out of their schools. Thats right, Religion teaches you how to think! Have you ever seen the clarity with which St Thomas Aquinas presents his arguments?

With their intellects dulled and their pride puffed up, society continues to spiral into decline. Expect more irrational social movements, more destructive social practices, more general unhappiness and more people on anti-depressants.

I've been beating this drum for ages.

The CSO released a health survey a couple of days ago where 10% of self reported in the past year (so it's guaranteed higher than this), 15-24 year olds are in counselling or therapy. That's mindboggling lads.

At the start of Donald Trump's win, I thought it was funny out that there was such a meltdown about his victory. Now, I'm not so sure. There are a number of people who are genuinely terrified about whats happening right now.

There's a mental health bomb about to go off in the next few years. Expect more corporate/business dysfunction/just trying to get jobs done in the next while. Expect movies and art to become increasingly dark, preachy and nihilistic in the next while.

It's imperative lads get a grasp on what mental health actually is, rather than some "he needs to talk more about his feelings" snake oil crap, because a lot of us are not willing to pull up that fecking carpet and talk honestly about what exactly is going on. Not being a narcissistic cùnt is quite the thing these days.

The only thing is that The Donald's election might have triggered a more authentic "this is how I think about this topic" mini revelation.

Some of these people are broken. Some cheeky lad said in another thread that Louise O Neil is a voice of her generation.

As much as I hate to say it, I could well believe it.

El_Duderino 09 · 18-11-2016 12:26PM

silverharp wrote:

I stopped reading, respond like an adult or don't bother

So touchy to a bit of craic. I was asking about the complete change in your approach that occurred between 2 paragraphs.

silverharp wrote:

If on the other hand there were no female accountants one would wonder why that was happening. if on the other hand woman competed and won every medical college place one could argue that there maybe some downside there because you would need to train more doctors to get the work done and training doctors is very expensive

I didn't get the point about doctors at all. Could you explain it?

Also please stop using this language that men are dropping out of society when they're really really not doing that. Some men are claiming to have stopped getting into to.antic relationship s and are trying to play the martyr by saying they're dropping out if society. It's pitiful stuff and you're better than that sort of guff

El_Duderino 09 · 18-11-2016 12:32PM

silverharp wrote:

I stopped reading, respond like an adult or don't bother

Also, get a grip for a second. It was fine for you to call me a 'useful idiot' earlier in this thread. And it was fine for another poster to call me a eunoch among other things. Must be confusing for you to decide when to get offended at pronouns after you've called the same person an idiot.

oik · 19-11-2016 09:20PM

I would say one of the reasons for lack of male teachers is that the pay isn't great. If you're a similarly educated person you can probably get a better paying job than teacher and men obviously feel more pressure to earn more.

Not that women can't get the better paying job, there's just not as much impetus to.

There's also the obvious fact that the hours and time are perfect for a woman who wants to spend more time with her kids.

oik · 19-11-2016 09:28PM

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Religion may instruct people on what to do and what to think but that is the polar opposite of critical thinking.

Mentioning the name of Thomas Aquinas does not change that.

I could as easily drop the name of Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church.

He's not wrong.

I'm an atheist myself, but I can see that in the absence of religion people are gravitating to radical politics.

I've come to learn that there will always be "religion", whether that religion is based on a book or a person or a political ideology, fanatical belief will always exist. I think the world would be better if the fanatics worshipped a radical pacifist from Nazereth than something more sinister that may be yet to come.

oik · 19-11-2016 09:33PM

py2006 wrote: »

I wonder is there a science to it. Are there studies to show that (generally speaking) girls and boys like certain colours etc.

I'm not sure about colours specifically, but there are a range of differences which are able to be observed in day old infants, so yes there is definite differences in nature.

Mister Vain · 19-11-2016 11:33PM

Irish men need feminism now apparently.

oik · 19-11-2016 11:44PM

Mister Vain wrote: »

Irish men need feminism now apparently.

He's a bit of a dope.

He just dresses up his lefty talking points with misplaced words like "neoliberalism" to make average people think he's very intelligent altogether.

And he uses muh mental health awareness to create a perception that he is the only straight talking honest man in town.

I know far too many people like him who are very good at regurgitating clever sounding nonsense.

He probably did well enough in his leaving though to be fair to him.

Wanderer78 · 19-11-2016 11:47PM

oik wrote:

I know far too many people like him who are very good at regurgitating clever sounding nonsense.

Universities would leave anybody work for them nowadays!

oik · 19-11-2016 11:48PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Universities would leave anybody work for them nowadays!

Does he work for a University?

Wanderer78 · 19-11-2016 11:50PM

oik wrote:

Does he work for a University?

He's talking a lot of sense, neoliberalism is a bust!

oik · 20-11-2016 12:00AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

He's talking a lot of sense, neoliberalism is a bust!

He's not really he just has you thinking that.

Go back to what he said:

Men are upset because "I have nothing to offer a woman"

This triggered my bullsh1t detector.

I don't believe he canvassed a number of men and came back with this as a common theme in male depression.

I think he made this bit up and then used it to justify his "men need feminism" spiel.

I'm very suspicious when someone identifies a medical problem and then comes along with a political solution.

Just my 2c.

Wanderer78 · 20-11-2016 12:04AM

oik wrote:

I'm very suspicious when someone identifies a medical problem and then comes along with a political solution.

Mental health issues are extremely complex with multiple root causes equally complex. I personally believe neoclassical theory has a lot to answer for as well as neoliberalism regarding these issues

oik · 20-11-2016 12:08AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Mental health issues are extremely complex with multiple root causes equally complex. I personally believe neoclassical theory has a lot to answer for as well as neoliberalism regarding these issues

If his argument is that men are depressed because they have lost their roles as providers then strictly speaking it's not neoliberalism that is to blame for that, it's feminism. His solution is more feminism.

You could argue that neoliberalism created a demand among the capitalist class to bring the other half of the population into the workforce and so the capitalist class promoted feminism, but it's much of a muchness.

Wanderer78 · 20-11-2016 12:11AM

oik wrote:

If his argument is that men are depressed because they have lost their roles as providers then it's not neoliberalism that is to blame for that, it's feminism. His solution is more feminism.

I do know some men that struggle with the idea of not being able to provide, and it does cause mental health issues. I'm delighted women play a more pivotal role in society regarding providing, some men just struggle with that, particularly alpha males

oik · 20-11-2016 12:13AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I do know some men that struggle with the idea of not being able to provide, and it does cause mental health issues. I'm delighted women play a more pivotal role in society regarding providing, some men just struggle with that, particularly alpha males

So the solution is to further undermine men's role as providers, as opposed to getting more men better jobs?

mzungu · 20-11-2016 12:55AM

oik wrote: »

He's not really he just has you thinking that.

Go back to what he said:

Men are upset because "I have nothing to offer a woman"

This triggered my bullsh1t detector.

I don't believe he canvassed a number of men and came back with this as a common theme in male depression.

I think he made this bit up and then used it to justify his "men need feminism" spiel.

I'm very suspicious when someone identifies a medical problem and then comes along with a political solution.

Just my 2c.

I think your man from the Rubberbandits was saying that basically men do not have to fit into stereotyped roles. They should go with what feels comfortable and that nobody expects any different. This I think is a good message and given that they are popular among youngsters, that might resonate with them a lot more.

I have no idea why he mentioned feminism though, as to my mind what he was suggesting had nothing to do with it. But, leaving that at the door, what he suggested may help some people, and that is a big plus.

However, I do think the reasons behind male suicide encompass a hell of a lot more factors than just traditional roles and stuff like that.

Nevertheless, it is good that the discussion was pushed out there...but ideologies should have been left at the door.

Mr Arrior · 20-11-2016 01:05AM

I think that lack of a romantic relationships can cause some mental health problems but a lot doesn't. Ya regularly hear about the confident guy with a beautiful girlfriend and great family and friends as well as a steady job crippled with depression. He has no reason to be depressed on the face of it but something just isn't right with him.
In my own case, I have quite severe mental health problems that would not be resolved by having a loving girlfriend. I'd love one and I find loneliness can set in by not having one so it can definitely be a contributing factor to make things worse but it will not sort things out.

oik · 20-11-2016 01:30AM

mzungu wrote: »

I think your man from the Rubberbandits was saying that basically men do not have to fit into stereotyped roles. They should go with what feels comfortable and that nobody expects any different. This I think is a good message and given that they are popular among youngsters, that might resonate with them a lot more.

I have no idea why he mentioned feminism though, as to my mind what he was suggesting had nothing to do with it. But, leaving that at the door, what he suggested may help some people, and that is a big plus.

However, I do think the reasons behind male suicide encompass a hell of a lot more factors than just traditional roles and stuff like that.

Nevertheless, it is good that the discussion was pushed out there...but ideologies should have been left at the door.

I know, I actually agreed with his main point but I found the shoehorning in of feminism as a solution to depression be a bizarre form of bollocksology at best and shameless ideologism at worst.

It's like, here's the problem, and here's my prepackaged ideology as the solution, would you like to buy it?

And I agree with the above. A relationship is not a cure for depression and it can in fact make it worse by adding additional stresses.

tomwaterford · 20-11-2016 01:37AM

oik wrote: »

If his argument is that men are depressed because they have lost their roles as providers then strictly speaking it's not neoliberalism that is to blame for that, it's feminism. His solution is more feminism.

You could argue that neoliberalism created a demand among the capitalist class to bring the other half of the population into the workforce and so the capitalist class promoted feminism, but it's much of a muchness.

If the economic model set out as neoliberalism is supposedly to provide the jobs

It is a failure of it....when it can't provide said jobs??

In effect you are saying neoliberalism is the brainchild of feminist movement to keep men down???

Its fun drawing illogical conclusions to suit an argument

:pac:
:rolleyes:

So ergo you support communism??

Mr Arrior · 20-11-2016 01:49AM

I'd be the quiet and caring guy in the corner. Growing up, I was sure id have plenty of success with women in my twenties but it isn't the case. I can't say one woman I've liked has liked me back but tbh I've come to terms with it all now.

Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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