JC assessment task December

MrJones1973 · 12-11-2016 08:07PM

You can slice it and dice it anyway you like but new JC dreamt up by academics who don't teach in working class areas will mean more work and no extra pay. Trying to get colleagues to do x without any proper mgr structures is a joke. Students are not really interested in feed back as in poorer areas they lack any real work ethic and you are fooling yourselves if you believe JC exam sec won't eventually be abolished as we pretend all kids need is skills and not knowledge.

seavill · 12-11-2016 08:36PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You can slice it and dice it anyway you like but new JC dreamt up by academics who don't teach in working class areas will mean more work and no extra pay. Trying to get colleagues to do x without any proper mgr structures is a joke. Students are not really interested in feed back as in poorer areas they lack any real work ethic and you are fooling yourselves if you believe JC exam sec won't eventually be abolished as we pretend all kids need is skills and not knowledge.

Bit of an inaccurate generalisation there Mr. White

spurious · 12-11-2016 09:44PM

I agree it's a generalisation, but of course there are some students to which it applies.

It used to amuse me, hearing stories from colleagues in schools in more affluent areas about the odd missing homework, or sily mistake in the Mocks etc., when I would have them coming in the morning of the real exam not knowing or caring what subject it was. The level playing field.

man_no_plan · 12-11-2016 10:21PM

spurious wrote: »

I agree it's a generalisation, but of course there are some students to which it applies.

It used to amuse me, hearing stories from colleagues in schools in more affluent areas about the odd missing homework, or sily mistake in the Mocks etc., when I would have them coming in the morning of the real exam not knowing or caring what subject it was. The level playing field.

I think this is part of the whole IR problem ATM too. Two teachers, two schools, two very different worlds.

implausible · 12-11-2016 11:05PM

Of course we do, and within existing time and management structures. When the JC was originally being objected to, the argument that was trotted out was lack of standards and oversight, so make it state certified. When it was revised, the CBAs were made separate to state certification and now the professional judgement of the teacher is the final say and teachers are still not happy.

What I suggested there was a half-way house, a response to the charge that the system is open to abuse, where the teacher still has his/her say and someone checks to see that the work is done. This, however, would create even more objections, with complaints about too much paperwork and the SEC/Dept breathing down our necks.

You can't win, unless we are back to a fully state-certified assessment, which would be unnecessary given the low-stakes nature of the exam and which would be far more expensive.

implausible · 12-11-2016 11:18PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

You can slice it and dice it anyway you like but new JC dreamt up by academics who don't teach in working class areas will mean more work and no extra pay. Trying to get colleagues to do x without any proper mgr structures is a joke. Students are not really interested in feed back as in poorer areas they lack any real work ethic and you are fooling yourselves if you believe JC exam sec won't eventually be abolished as we pretend all kids need is skills and not knowledge.

It's not fair on those kids to assume this. I teach in a DEIS school, should we adjust everything to suit the worst attender in the class? What about creating aspiration and raising standards?

One of the most rewarding things I have done in a long long time is the Oral CBA with the weakest group in my school. To see those (mostly boys) stand up and talk about their topic was really uplifting, but what really got to me was the feedback they gave afterwards, how they never thought they could get up and speak in front of a class, how they wished they had done more research and how they were glad that they were 'made' do it. It reminded me of why I got into teaching. These kids would be 1/2 foundation in the old system and even if they scrape a pass in the exam or don't get it at all, they have had a positive learning experience in school.

spurious wrote: »

I agree it's a generalisation, but of course there are some students to which it applies.

It used to amuse me, hearing stories from colleagues in schools in more affluent areas about the odd missing homework, or sily mistake in the Mocks etc., when I would have them coming in the morning of the real exam not knowing or caring what subject it was. The level playing field.

That would be if they came in at all, I did exam secretary and lost track of the houses I had to ring on the morning of the exam to get little Johnny in for his exams. Level playing field indeed.

I do believe the new system has merit, CBA 2 will show them that if they work on a document and take feedback on board, then they can produce something worthwhile, which is far closer to the real world than having to perform under pressure in a 2 1/2 hour exam.

political analyst · 13-11-2016 01:16AM

implausible wrote: »

Of course we do, and within existing time and management structures. When the JC was originally being objected to, the argument that was trotted out was lack of standards and oversight, so make it state certified. When it was revised, the CBAs were made separate to state certification and now the professional judgement of the teacher is the final say and teachers are still not happy.

What I suggested there was a half-way house, a response to the charge that the system is open to abuse, where the teacher still has his/her say and someone checks to see that the work is done. This, however, would create even more objections, with complaints about too much paperwork and the SEC/Dept breathing down our necks.

You can't win, unless we are back to a fully state-certified assessment, which would is unnecessary given the low-stakes nature of the exam and which would be far more expensive.

In other words, the ASTI has been moving the goalposts on JC reform.

feardeas · 13-11-2016 10:54AM

implausible wrote:

I have previously advocated a system similar to the QQI one, where you mark the students' work and at the end of the year, an external examiner comes in, looks at a sample and signs off on it. This could have been done by the SEC - as they will need fewer examiners at JC level, you could hire examiners to spend a few hours in each school signing off on the work. By taking state certification away, it's left entirely up to the school.

I think that's done in Art already. However I think that the CBA result only going out in November kind of dilutes the importance of them. So they are like house exams and I'm not sure outside moderation would be necessary.

We did oral presentations last May without adhering to the guidelines, to accommodate directives. I have to say it was great. The level of research was amazing and all students were able to perform in a very mixed ability setting. We all felt very sad that we hadn't the opportunity to avail of the cpd and it cemented my view that this should be given a fair wind. I firmly believe for e.g. that the CBA could take the place of some house exams.

In fact I think that in a sense the skills of presentation, editing and re-writing will stand to students in third level and the workforce much more than writing paragraphs in the terminal exam.

implausible · 13-11-2016 01:21PM

feardeas wrote:

We did oral presentations last May without adhering to the guidelines, to accommodate directives. I have to say it was great. The level of research was amazing and all students were able to perform in a very mixed ability setting. We all felt very sad that we hadn't the opportunity to avail of the cpd and it cemented my view that this should be given a fair wind. I firmly believe for e.g. that the CBA could take the place of some house exams.

From what I hear from friends in ASTI schools, a lot of English teachers are doing the same, doing the oral presentations without assessing them.

The circular on JC that has been issued (0024/2016) says that to avoid over-assessment, CBAs are to take the place of at least one set of house exams.

man_no_plan · 13-11-2016 01:31PM

implausible wrote: »

From what I hear from friends in ASTI schools, a lot of English teachers are doing the same, doing the oral presentations without assessing them.

The circular on JC that has been issued (0024/2016) says that to avoid over-assessment, CBAs are to take the place of at least one set of house exams.

This will probably be more doable when we have more subjects in. I think bit will be a fine balancing act though. There will be a timetable, apparently, to spread the CBA's out which is all well and good but with a 90% terminal exam the Christmas tests will still retain some importance.

If I'm right in saying most CBAs will be in third year the only real in house exams are the mocks. The second year CBA could replace the summer test but you wouldn't be looking at the 90% for those exams a year out from the exams with only the mocks between there and the real thing . granted the JC is not high stakes but there is a job of work to be done to convince parents.

I have had calls from parents who think the new Irish teacher spends too much time talking inrush and not giving notes, go figure!

implausible · 13-11-2016 05:05PM

man_no_plan wrote: »

This will probably be more doable when we have more subjects in. I think bit will be a fine balancing act though. There will be a timetable, apparently, to spread the CBA's out which is all well and good but with a 90% terminal exam the Christmas tests will still retain some importance.

If I'm right in saying most CBAs will be in third year the only real in house exams are the mocks. The second year CBA could replace the summer test but you wouldn't be looking at the 90% for those exams a year out from the exams with only the mocks between there and the real thing . granted the JC is not high stakes but there is a job of work to be done to convince parents.

I have had calls from parents who think the new Irish teacher spends too much time talking inrush and not giving notes, go figure!

In our school, we're suffering from a bit of over-assessment. Up until this year, 3rd years did Hallowe'en exams, Christmas exams and mocks, so I'm delighted to be losing the Christmas one. They would need a practice run at the final exam alright, but I'd imagine it will up to individual schools to work this out.

There is also significant crossover between CBA2 and the final exam, so this could be maximised e.g. a piece of analysis about a novel can be presented for CBA2 and would be very useful in the exam.

The "notes culture" could take a serious bashing with the new JC!

man_no_plan · 13-11-2016 07:18PM

implausible wrote: »

The "notes culture" could take a serious bashing with the new JC!

Only to make a comeback in LC. It will be difficult to get some parents and teachers on board though. There is a very narrow view in some areas as to what a 'good lesson' looks like.

judeboy101 · 13-11-2016 07:21PM

implausible wrote: »

It's not fair on those kids to assume this. I teach in a DEIS school, should we adjust everything to suit the worst attender in the class? What about creating aspiration and raising standards?

One of the most rewarding things I have done in a long long time is the Oral CBA with the weakest group in my school. To see those (mostly boys) stand up and talk about their topic was really uplifting, but what really got to me was the feedback they gave afterwards, how they never thought they could get up and speak in front of a class, how they wished they had done more research and how they were glad that they were 'made' do it. It reminded me of why I got into teaching. These kids would be 1/2 foundation in the old system and even if they scrape a pass in the exam or don't get it at all, they have had a positive learning experience in school.

That would be if they came in at all, I did exam secretary and lost track of the houses I had to ring on the morning of the exam to get little Johnny in for his exams. Level playing field indeed.

I do believe the new system has merit, CBA 2 will show them that if they work on a document and take feedback on board, then they can produce something worthwhile, which is far closer to the real world than having to perform under pressure in a 2 1/2 hour exam.

TIL there's no pressure for instant results in the real world?

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2016 08:01PM

Schools don't have management capacity to bring this JC in . Unless you have paid heads of department it will be hit and miss. I will try to focus on drafting/redrafting a few pieces over next few weeks. I now believe the Dec task won't happen in Asti schools this year. Two JC exam models.
Is it OK to ask them to write about the themes in mice and men or does it have to be creative? They have done book reports already.
As for oral. They were poor quality but perhaps the fact they stood up at all is great. Even those I Gave PP training didn't use it ! Power point

Stewie Griffin · 13-11-2016 08:50PM

I'm enjoying this thread. Badly needed and long overdue.

Mr. White, what makes you believe that the AT won't proceed?

I should declare that I'm ASTI, and currently scrambling to get the students ready for this!

man_no_plan · 13-11-2016 09:28PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Schools don't have management capacity to bring this JC in .

I don't know that that's the case. Why do you think so?

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2016 10:29PM

man_no_plan wrote: »

I don't know that that's the case. Why do you think so?

A lot of schools just have a handful of posts. School planning not being done. Schools are being run on a shoe string.
You need posts that allow coordination between teachers That make sure paper work is done etc. You might have to bring in outside staff for short courses.

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2016 10:35PM

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

I'm enjoying this thread. Badly needed and long overdue.

Mr. White, what makes you believe that the AT won't proceed?

I should declare that I'm ASTI, and currently scrambling to get the students ready for this!

Ready for what ? It can't occur in Asti schools with directive. We won't be balloted until January. I was panicking myself but and it's a big but ,we accept the JC then it will be February at earliest we could do it. They might just allow two variations of JC , one with the AT and one without. Actually even feb ambitious as we rightly can demand training first

Stewie Griffin · 13-11-2016 10:55PM

My understanding is that the AT is being corrected by the SEC (i.e. not a Classroom Based Asssessment) and so the ASTI teachers are to cooperate with it.

Do I have it wrong? (again!)

implausible · 13-11-2016 11:34PM

judeboy101 wrote: »

TIL there's no pressure for instant results in the real world?

There is both in the real world -things you have time to mull over, redraft and prepare for and times when you have to deliver under pressure. No harm for school assessments to be the same.

implausible · 13-11-2016 11:39PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

A lot of schools just have a handful of posts. School planning not being done. Schools are being run on a shoe string.
You need posts that allow coordination between teachers That make sure paper work is done etc. You might have to bring in outside staff for short courses.

No, you don't need posts. The paperwork is minimal - the teacher fills in one sheet per student to decide how to assess the CBA, the student fills in one reflection sheet and the teacher gathers them together. At the SLAR, you make a list of pieces of work to be discussed and whoever is coordinating the SLAR fills in a one page report on the meeting. That's two sheets per teacher per CBA. The revised JC spec ensured that the paperwork was minimal.

We have 14 hours this year of paid sub cover per English teacher to meet to sort out what we're doing and from 2017 (I think) every teacher involved in JC gets a 40 minute timetable reduction (unheard of concession from the dept).

implausible · 13-11-2016 11:46PM

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

My understanding is that the AT is being corrected by the SEC (i.e. not a Classroom Based Asssessment) and so the ASTI teachers are to cooperate with it.

Do I have it wrong? (again!)

It's debatable, the AT is being marked by the SEC, but it takes in reflection on CBA2, which ASTI teachers have been directed not to assess.

Now, ASTI teachers have to teach the curriculum, which means that the students should have some sort of a Collection of Texts (which hasn't been formally assessed by the teacher, but realistically, what English teacher doesn't give feedback?) upon which they can reflect.

It's very muddy. Have ASTI teachers been directed not to comply specifically with the AT? Realistically, I'd guess that another/second chance date will be arranged for the AT to make sure every student gets through.

Mardy Bum · 13-11-2016 11:51PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

I'm enjoying this thread. Badly needed and long overdue.

Mr. White, what makes you believe that the AT won't proceed?

I should declare that I'm ASTI, and currently scrambling to get the students ready for this!

Ready for what ? It can't occur in Asti schools with directive. We won't be balloted until January. I was panicking myself but and it's a big but ,we accept the JC then it will be February at earliest we could do it. They might just allow two variations of JC , one with the AT and one without. Actually even feb ambitious as we rightly can demand training first

ASTI have said nothing about. It can happen. Training for what? It is a two part exam one involves writing a letter, talk, speech etc and the other is a reflection on redrafted work which students completed. The directive did not ban either of these.

implausible · 14-11-2016 12:38AM

Mardy Bum wrote:

ASTI have said nothing about. It can happen. Training for what? It is a two part exam one involves writing a letter, talk, speech etc and the other is a reflection on redrafted work which students completed. The directive did not ban either of these.

Ooh, that's interesting. I thought there was a specific directive in place or at least specific advice in relation to the AT. ASTI would want to get their ass in gear in clarifying this to members so.

man_no_plan · 14-11-2016 12:48AM

implausible wrote: »

Ooh, that's interesting. I thought there was a specific directive in place or at least specific advice in relation to the AT. ASTI would want to get their ass in gear in clarifying this to members so.

Directive seems clear enough

4.
Not to engage in any aspect of
school based assessment for
the purpose of the Junior Cycle
Profile of Achievement (JCPA).

I have heard that some teachers might be on 'school business' and a TUI colleague or sub stands in for the 2 classes where the CBA is going on.

Link to directive http://www.asti.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Campaigns/Sept_2015_Junior_Cycle_Directive_A3_Poster_Layout_1.pdf

political analyst · 14-11-2016 01:49AM

Why didn't the ASTI executive give English teachers a derogation so they could conduct the assessment? English, Irish and Maths still have the Higher/Ordinary Level split in the new Junior Cert. Therefore, in the meantime, the union could still maintain its opposition to other aspects of Junior Cycle change, e.g. common level in all other Junior Cert subjects.

MrJones1973 · 14-11-2016 11:06AM

ASTI members are not permitted by directive to do the AT task. People should not post these statements without checking. I nearly had a heart attack as did many others!!!

How many redrafted pieces were they meant to have? My students did portfolio work last year. They were given folders to keep. They lost them. Well about 7 did. I haven't done much redrafting this year (yet) as I was trying to figure out Oral exam and get mice and men finished.

MrJones1973 · 14-11-2016 11:08AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

ASTI have said nothing about. It can happen. Training for what? It is a two part exam one involves writing a letter, talk, speech etc and the other is a reflection on redrafted work which students completed. The directive did not ban either of these.

Yes it did and Yes it has. All ASTi members should be made aware of this otherwise heart attacks now occurring all over Ireland.

Clarified any statement I made with ASTI. Its a fair question to ask about AT task being part of directive. If ASTi gives in on assessment and Dept want it done this year-I expect Feb/March to be earliest time.

Lets all chill a bit-me included.

implausible · 14-11-2016 02:12PM

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

ASTI members are not permitted by directive to do the AT task. People should not post these statements without checking. I nearly had a heart attack as did many others!!!

How many redrafted pieces were they meant to have? My students did portfolio work last year. They were given folders to keep. They lost them. Well about 7 did. I haven't done much redrafting this year (yet) as I was trying to figure out Oral exam and get mice and men finished.

In fairness, the directive doesn't clearly state that.

They are meant to present four pieces and two will be assessed from that four.

MrJones1973 · 14-11-2016 02:31PM

implausible wrote: »

In fairness, the directive doesn't clearly state that.

They are meant to present four pieces and two will be assessed from that four.

You are right about directive not being explicit enough on this issue. Who do they present the 4 to ? My bold text was simply to give clarity not to admonish anybody?

JC assessment task December

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