Staff issues

Clara B · 10-11-2016 8:21am #1

Hi All,
I'm a newbie to boards!

I run a small business-8 employees. It's fairly new and going well. I have contacted a company to draw up contracts and staff handbook for me-they want €200 per month for the next 8 months to do this! Would love any recommendations on where/who is good for this sort of thing as I think an open ended contract with these people is a little much.
The reason I want a handbook is to ensure all employees know our policies on everything. The biggest issue I have at the minute is sick leave! We are back to pre recession when staff call in sick a lot. It doesn't seem to be an issue for them that I don't pay sick leave.
I have one currently our sick for over a month with no sign of a return date. This is a pregnancy related sickness-so I'm stuck. She's in a post I can't do without but her absence is really starting to hurt my business. I am still trying to give an a/l staff request-within reason-as I don't think it's fair on them to be saying no. I gave 2 days to one guy this week-which with the other member of staff out sick out put us under strain-but it was manageable. The real issue arose when another staff member-knowing how tight we were anyway-called in sick too. He has proceeded to take the whole week off. My issue with this is that he had requested 2 of those days as a/l and I only granted 1 of them. He has gone to the doctor and got a cert-sent it to me yesterday.

I am really at my wits end now. My business partner and I are working round the clock-we also own another business that requires us to operate it on a rotating basis-to cover these absences. I feel like I'm being held to ransom by staff. It's starting to affect service and continunity as something has to give when 3 staff are absent. It will and is affecting the sales in my business and I cannot let it continue. It will drag my other business down with it as our focus is split.

I know sickness happens and can't be avoided. The girl out sick has real issues with her pregnancy and wouldn't be out only for it-but her post is essential and after a month I have to think about alternatives.
The guy who called in sick swears he is really ill-but a week for a cold-come on!!!

Any help of advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Ps-I am also 5 months pregnant and worried that the work load will be an issue for the continued safety of my pregnancy-but I'm an employer so there's no safety net for me!

Tell me how · 10-11-2016 8:42am

â‚¬1,600 for drawing up contracts and a handbook is nothing but an agreement of doing it for â‚¬200 a month for 8 months sounds a bit odd. Was that their fee and you agreed payment terms over 8 months?

Do you ask employees to provide sick certs for absences related to health? You are entitled to do so (typically for absences greater than 3 days) If so, you can't question them with your subjective opinion. You are not qualified to do so.

I suggest getting a reliable HR person to give you advice but also stop questioning their behaviour based on arguments related to how busy you or the business is or whether or not you feel it is acceptable. That'll alienate staff at the very least and could easily get you a date at the WRC.

TonyStark · 10-11-2016 9:34am

I think the first issue would be to perhaps think about it from a staff point of view and the underlying reasons for this.

The guy with the two days annual leave doesn't seem like a lot, the business should be able to survive an absence like this, even at a busy time. Decisions like only granting one day when two are requested hit morale a lot. Obviously in this case the reason for his absense was so necessary so he got a sick cert to cover himself. It portrays a dictatorial style of leadership.

In terms of bringing in sick leave policy for staff have you consulted with them? If not then why not? Perhaps if they knew your concerns they might tow the line better. Its good to have a good line of communication with your workers.

Perhaps if you brought in sick pay for a limited number of sick days it might have an effect of better attendance and save you in the long term. Obviously it would cost, but people may feel guilty in taking sick days. At the moment it doesn't cost you anything so there is no perceived loss.

In terms of the girl who is ill on her pregnancy time to bite the bullet and bring in her maternity cover early.

Clara B · 10-11-2016 9:36am

Of course you are right-if an employee provides a sick cert -which they do-then I have no place to question them. I suppose it's difficult for me to be dispassionate as it's impact is so keenly felt to all the other staff. It doesn't change the fact that you are correct.
sometimes a little slap in the face is what you need to get you to buck up and get in with the job in hand.

The contract company basically wants me to sign up to a monthly direct debit that covers the cost of contracts/handbook and additional support. As I have never engaged in this before and have no experience of it I was just wondering if the cost was acceptable and if this is usually how it's done. I need these things to be compliant and also for security for staff so it's something I have to do-just wondering what the best avenue is.

i71jskz5xu42pb · 10-11-2016 9:42am

Clara B wrote: »

Would love any recommendations on where/who is good for this sort of thing as I think an open ended contract with these people is a little much.

I think (no personal expereince) the SFA help with this kind of thing
http://www.sfa.ie/Sectors/SFA/SFA.nsf/vPages/About~How_we_support_you~business-advice?OpenDocument

Not sure what the fees are like though.

Country enterprise boards may do similar, some do advice clinics in any case
https://www.localenterprise.ie/Fingal/Start-or-Grow-your-Business/Business-Advice-Mentoring/

TonyStark · 10-11-2016 9:43am

Clara B wrote: »

Of course you are right-if an employee provides a sick cert -which they do-then I have no place to question them. I suppose it's difficult for me to be dispassionate as it's impact is so keenly felt to all the other staff. It doesn't change the fact that you are correct.
sometimes a little slap in the face is what you need to get you to buck up and get in with the job in hand.

The contract company basically wants me to sign up to a monthly direct debit that covers the cost of contracts/handbook and additional support. As I have never engaged in this before and have no experience of it I was just wondering if the cost was acceptable and if this is usually how it's done. I need these things to be compliant and also for security for staff so it's something I have to do-just wondering what the best avenue is.

So as a staff member when they get their new contract and they read the terms. If they don't like the terms do they get the door? The issue here is the existing terms and conditions of their employment.

"In the absence of specific written terms or in the alternative implied terms then the parties might rely on the concept of custom and practice. A custom and practice is essentially a practice that has developed over a period of time or by arrangement that has never been specifically agreed between the employer and the employee but can be argued to have formed part of the terms and conditions of employment."

I think it would be more worthwhile to engage with the employees. It's one thing to engage a company to draw up policies etc. It's another issue to get employees to sign up to them.

Clara B · 10-11-2016 9:47am

Yes we have discussed s/l with staff. We have said obviously if you need it-take it-just keep us informed and let us know about it as early as you can.
I don't say no to a/l-they request it and it's always granted-the only time I said no was this week-when it was a Late request and I already had someone on a/l and s/l for that time.
I am recruiting the maternity cover at minute to alleviate the issue with the lady who is out sick. I had someone in to cover this-but the staff didn't like this person so I had to make a change.
We work with the guys-we muck in and do everything they do. We have also paid them all bonuses over the last few weeks to show appreciation for how hard they have worked. We have consulted with them with regard to recruitment of new staff and taken on board any issues they have had. We don't operate a dictatorship-that style just doesn't work. I don't have them do overtime as I don't want to burn them out-so I do it where necessary. I feel as employers we do everything in our power to give them a safe, happy working environment and we reward them for all their efforts.

I do take your suggestion of paid sick leave-I understand where you are coming from on that. It may well work as an incentive for them.

Clara B · 10-11-2016 9:52am

Yes that's true-it might serve me better to discuss issues directly with them and have them engage in the contract process from the start to avoid any issues further down the line.
With regard to terms and conditions it wouldn't be the case that we would show them the door. We would do a work trail for a month and at the end we discuss any issues that have arisen-i.e.-if they need to make alterations to working hours etc, any prior a/l they have coming up that they need to take etc.

Wanderer78 · 10-11-2016 10:18am

Apologies but I've no advice, I wish you the very best with your business

draiochtanois · 10-11-2016 10:43am

This post has been deleted.

TonyStark · 10-11-2016 10:54am

Clara B wrote: »

Yes that's true-it might serve me better to discuss issues directly with them and have them engage in the contract process from the start to avoid any issues further down the line.
With regard to terms and conditions it wouldn't be the case that we would show them the door. We would do a work trail for a month and at the end we discuss any issues that have arisen-i.e.-if they need to make alterations to working hours etc, any prior a/l they have coming up that they need to take etc.

Even bringing in limited paid sick leave as you shore up the policy might work well so you can get other things that are more important over the line.

It does sound like you do a lot yourself in terms of trying to keep the show on the road. You got to be careful you don't burn yourself out at the same time! Best of luck!

Tell me how · 10-11-2016 11:23am

Clara B wrote: »

Of course you are right-if an employee provides a sick cert -which they do-then I have no place to question them. I suppose it's difficult for me to be dispassionate as it's impact is so keenly felt to all the other staff. It doesn't change the fact that you are correct.
sometimes a little slap in the face is what you need to get you to buck up and get in with the job in hand.

The contract company basically wants me to sign up to a monthly direct debit that covers the cost of contracts/handbook and additional support. As I have never engaged in this before and have no experience of it I was just wondering if the cost was acceptable and if this is usually how it's done. I need these things to be compliant and also for security for staff so it's something I have to do-just wondering what the best avenue is.

That sort of payment plan for a service such as described seems odd to me. I would be concerned that once you've signed up you struggle to get responses to emails or phone calls answered.

I would suggest a meeting with a dedicated HR firm or if you have a solicitor you use then start with them. (If you ever do end up in the unfortunate position of being challenged on anything relating to this it will be to the solicitor you will be going to then anyway)

FYI, SME membership for a company of your size would be in the region of €500 and you could get a lot of advice from it.

The Dench · 10-11-2016 11:30am

Really feel your pain - I am also a small business owner and in business 13 years. Have had this issue constantly, all that time - used to make me sick with the stress. Best solution we came up with was to get some relief staff locally who were happy to work on a zero hours contract and cover at short notice, and also try to find an agency who you like in your line of work/similar line of work and then you should also be able to get cover staff at relatively short notice.(Agency staff tend to cost a bit more than normal rates) Other solutions we have come up with have been family members - ours and staff.

You have to find a solution because unfortunately you will always end up with staff out sick, annual leave to cover etc. You can also get tough re sick leave - decide what is an acceptable level, have that in your sick leave policy, make sure you record all sick leave and when an employee has reached it have a welfare meeting with them regarding their health - if this doesn't help reduce it, you can also resort to using Occupational Health GPs to assess are they fit for work. I use Medmark - they are expensive but good.

Have you got new staff on probation? We always do 6 months probation: 1 week notice either party before signing permanent contract; then to 1 month notice but could leave it at 2 weeks, some businesses do. Also the employees need to see that you are serious and professional regarding their contracts, employment law etc. and then they may act more professionally around the whole area. Look after yourself - you and your baby are important too; you won't get a proper maternity leave being self employed so do what you can to reduce your stress now. Good luck.

Graham · 10-11-2016 11:39am

What sort of business are you Clara (no need to be too specific)? Are your staff salaried/hourly paid?

Do you have the option of bringing in another staff member, even if that means taking a look at the hours your existing staff are rostered?

Have you had a chat with the staff? Have you warned them that their attendance is unsatisfactory? Do you conduct return to work interviews after a period of sickness? Have you told them that things cannot continue this way and if things don't improve you will have to consider more drastic changes?

mrawkward · 10-11-2016 11:51am

Sorry to be so blunt but this appears to be a mismanagement issue. You have employees with no proper contract of employment? If I am correct, you are breaking the law http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

This is where you state the terms of engagement, disciplinary procedures etc etc. Handbooks are just dust gathering waffle. Employees just want to know, and are entitled to know the rules in place. Get your house in order first.

mrawkward · 10-11-2016 11:52am

Sorry to be so blunt but this appears to be a mismanagement issue. You have employees with no proper contract of employment? If I am correct, you are breaking the law http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

This is where you state the terms of engagement, disciplinary procedures etc etc. Handbooks are just dust gathering waffle. Employees just want to know, and are entitled to know the rules in place. Get your house in order first.

pedroeibar1 · 10-11-2016 12:04pm

I’m not going to ask you any questions because from reading your posts it is very clear to me that you cannot handle this yourself and need professional HR input. Nothing wrong with that, HR requires a specific skillset that many do not have and most would rather out-source.
An amount of, €1,600 spread over X months is cheap. Remember that the specialist will also be up to speed on employment law and will know what can be done – you don’t, so by trying to go the cheap route and doing it on your own you are digging yourself into a hole. Pay the sum, and negotiate an annual retainer fee with a quantified amount of input (e.g. half-yearly review, recent legal changes, etc.)

pilly · 10-11-2016 12:11pm

Some posters on here being a little harsh. Small businesses often grow quickly and don't have the time to engage in proper HR procedures initially. Then when things are settled they often hire an outside contractor to look after it for them. In relation to the price I agree it's reasonable enough so long as it's not an open ended contract.

With relation to the sick leave sometimes a bad outlook on it can cause longer absences. For example, someone is genuinely sick for a day but if they feel they're going to get a bad attitude over being out for just a day then they take a week? Does that make sense?

There's nothing you can do about the pregnant lady except hire a temp to cover for her.

pilly · 10-11-2016 12:11pm

Some posters on here being a little harsh. Small businesses often grow quickly and don't have the time to engage in proper HR procedures initially. Then when things are settled they often hire an outside contractor to look after it for them. In relation to the price I agree it's reasonable enough so long as it's not an open ended contract.

With relation to the sick leave sometimes a bad outlook on it can cause longer absences. For example, someone is genuinely sick for a day but if they feel they're going to get a bad attitude over being out for just a day then they take a week? Does that make sense?

There's nothing you can do about the pregnant lady except hire a temp to cover for her.

mrawkward · 10-11-2016 12:23pm

Other issues to be considered here are the quality of staff recruitment/selection abilities of the employer. A lot of frequent "illness" absence is often due to a badly managed/unhappy workplace, even if it is unpaid!

Staff arelike children they do not perform/behave well when they do not know where the boundaries are. Anarchy develops unhindered. As to being harsh, the truth is rarely pleasant in crisis.

screamer · 10-11-2016 12:38pm

mrawkward wrote: »

Other issues to be considered here are the quality of staff recruitment/selection abilities of the employer. A lot of frequent "illness" absence is often due to a badly managed/unhappy workplace, even if it is unpaid!

or they are p*sstakers. Op I feel sorry for you employees are the biggest pain in the ass ever. Pay the money get some good HR advise and nip that sickday culture in the bud. Your employees don't care about your workload. they see it as no rules for them so they'll take a mean advantage and if you step in to shore up the shortfalls sure happy days.

10-11-2016 2:18pm

I do my best to weed out people who will be taking the piss in the interview process. I ask questions like 'if we needed you to, could you do 14 hours a day 7 days in a row"? The different reactions, from horror to complete willingness can tell a lot. Its not that you would have them working those hours, but it can tell a lot about a persons motivation and what kind of individual they are by their response.
That HR bill at 200 quid a month seems very generous to be honest. Seems like they are doing you a favor by spreading it out over time. Just make sure its proper contracts they are giving you specific to your industry and business type to suit your needs as an employer and not just protocols and internal policy documents that will get lost on a harddrive.

mrawkward · 10-11-2016 2:54pm

Best advice on HR I ever got, many years ago as I started out in business on my own, " If you want a friend, get a dog"!

dbran · 10-11-2016 3:48pm

Hi

It sounds like you do have some HR issues that you need to resolve and it is better that you have identified them now rather then wait until they come to a head later. I think "mismanaged" would be too harsh a word. But you need to learn to run your staff otherwise they will run you.

You also need to consider whether imposing a new set of policies on staff in a unilateral fashion could backfire. Especially if it changes a policy that was already in place. An employee could easily fashion a case for constructive dismissal or bullying against you and may try look for a payout. If there was no procedures or they were not properly followed you will be in trouble. Either way you need to know what course of action is going to work and what is simply going to lead you into trouble and incur more cost.

It is for that reason I think you do need some sort of proper professional advise on how to proceed that minimises this risk. I do not think 1600 is expensive considering the potential consequences. There are plenty of reputable HR agencies you just need to google them. There is also some employer organisations which offer this type of help and advice as part of their membership. If you consider the level of the awards handed down by the labour court this is a small price to pay.

Dbran

Mrs OBumble · 10-11-2016 4:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I ask questions like 'if we needed you to, could you do 14 hours a day 7 days in a row"? The different reactions, from horror to complete willingness can tell a lot.

If you asked me that in an interview, I'd laugh in your face and be out the door -wouldn't even bother to finish the interview with such a mickey-mouse show outfit.

10-11-2016 4:26pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I ask questions like 'if we needed you to, could you do 14 hours a day 7 days in a row"? The different reactions, from horror to complete willingness can tell a lot.

If you asked me that in an interview, I'd laugh in your face and be out the door -wouldn't even bother to finish the interview with such a mickey-mouse show outfit.

And you'd show your hand straight away as being part of the 'entitled' clocking watching dregs that become eventually become cancers on business' trying to create an environment where people are dedicated more to making the business a success, then getting home to watch Neighbours at 17.35. Asking that question as I said is the perfect way to weed out people like you.

intheclouds · 10-11-2016 4:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And you'd show your hand straight away as being part of the 'entitled' clocking watching dregs that become eventually become cancers on business' trying to create an environment where people are dedicated more to making the business a success, then getting home to watch Neighbours at 17.35. Asking that question as I said is the perfect way to weed out people like you.

I like questions like that in the interview.

Id rather find out at that stage that its a place that wants to exploit me than after Id signed the contract!

Hilarious that you use the term entitled when you are the one showing the entitlement to exploit staff.

Do keep asking that question.

For the OP - why cant you get a temp in to cover the pregnant girl?

Why dont you price a contract laywer about the contracts and get a loan of someone elses handbook to draw one up from yourself?

Graham · 10-11-2016 4:34pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you asked me that in an interview, I'd laugh in your face and be out the door -wouldn't even bother to finish the interview with such a mickey-mouse show outfit.

intheclouds wrote: »

I like questions like that in the interview.

Id rather find out at that stage that its a place that wants to exploit me than after Id signed the contract!

That kind of question is obviously a good way of judging attention to detail:

Deleted User wrote: »

Its not that you would have them working those hours, but it can tell a lot about a persons motivation and what kind of individual they are by their response.

harr · 10-11-2016 4:44pm

Can't offer much advice..but good luck ..I did work in a supervisory role before and the company I worked for was small like yours with a staff of 10.
We used an outside HR firm to deal with handbooks and staff contracts and to be honest while the company was expensive they were invaluable in the support they gave to the store owner...24 hour help and were always very very helpful in staffing issues including disciplinary Proceedings and would help in drafting up letters and the likes . once you follow the advice from them they also offered insurance and legal help if a member of staff did bring a dismissal case against you ...

5rtytry56 · 10-11-2016 4:47pm

harr wrote: »

..... if a member of staff did bring a dismissal case against you ...

becoming quite common.

intheclouds · 10-11-2016 4:48pm

Graham wrote: »

That kind of question is obviously a good way of judging attention to detail:

I think its you who missed the detail!

Staff issues

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