This has been bugging me for a while

54and56 · 07-11-2016 10:48AM

Hi GM228,

You are clearly very au fait with the road traffic legislation. Would you mind linking to or quoting the relevant extracts which your opinion is based on? I'd like to read them so I understand the rules correctly.

I started this thread as I couldn't understand why some companies seem to have carte blanche to park on footpaths, cylce lanes and bus lanes whilst replacing adverts on billboards regardless of the fact there was "legal" parking available within a couple of hundred metres. If what you are referring to is correct (and I hope it is as it answers the question I've been asking) it would be useful for people to know what legislation/exception they are relying on when parking on paths/cycle lanes and bus lanes etc.

GM228 · 07-11-2016 11:41AM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Hi GM228,

You are clearly very au fait with the road traffic legislation. Would you mind linking to or quoting the relevant extracts which your opinion is based on? I'd like to read them so I understand the rules correctly.

I started this thread as I couldn't understand why some companies seem to have carte blanche to park on footpaths, cylce lanes and bus lanes whilst replacing adverts on billboards regardless of the fact there was "legal" parking available within a couple of hundred metres. If what you are referring to is correct (and I hope it is as it answers the question I've been asking) it would be useful for people to know what legislation/exception they are relying on when parking on paths/cycle lanes and bus lanes etc.

I thought I already gave the relevant legislation recently but having looked through the last few posts it would appear I forgot to so here goes. Also note it isn't simply my opinion, it's the way legislation is written and also confirmed to me by a member of the Gardaí and their press office.

As you know any traffic and parking restrictions such as yellow lines, bus lanes, cycle lanes etc are under the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997 as amended, your relevant exemption as I previously mentioned of any vehicle used in connection for any work on any structure is contained under S5 (3)(b) as amended:-

5 (3) Save where otherwise expressly provided in these Regulations, a prohibition on the entry of a vehicle to a road or main area or the prohibition on the stopping or parking of a vehicle imposed by these Regulations shall not apply to -

<snip>

(b) a vehicle being used in connection with the carrying out of roadworks or the removal of any spillage, fallen power lines or other hazard from the road;

So how does a vehicle used in connection with roadworks equate to an Adshel van working at a bus stop or an advertising hoarding? It's due to how roadworks and road are defined - roadworks is the repair, maintenance, alteration, improvement or installation or any other work carried out on any structure on a road.

roadworks has the meaning assigned to it by section 101D of the Act of 1961;

So we work off the Road Traffic Act 1961 (as amended) definition of roadworks:-

"roadworks" means repairs, maintenance, alterations, improvements or installations or any other works

And how does a bus stop or possibly a billboard equate to being part of the road?

road has the meaning assigned to it by section 2 (1) of the Act of 1993;

So we use the definition of road from the Roads Act 1993, I suspect the 1993 Act as opposed to the 1961 Act was purposely used to broaden as much as possible what forms part of the road.

"road” includes—
(a) any street, lane, footpath, square, court, alley or passage,

(b) any bridge, viaduct, underpass, subway, tunnel, overpass, overbridge, flyover, carriageway (whether single or multiple), pavement or footway,

(c) any weighbridge or other facility for the weighing or inspection of vehicles, toll plaza or other facility for the collection of tolls, service area, emergency telephone, first aid post, culvert, arch, gulley, railing, fence, wall, barrier, guardrail, margin, kerb, lay-by, hard shoulder, island, pedestrian refuge, median, central reserve, channelliser, roundabout, gantry, pole, ramp, bollard, pipe, wire, cable, sign, signal or lighting forming part of the road, and

(d) any other structure or thing forming part of the road and

(i) necessary for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users or for the construction, maintenance, operation or management of the road or for the protection of the environment, or

(ii) prescribed by the Minister;

So there you have it OP, any vehicle used in conjunction with any work carried out on any structure on a road is exempt from traffic and parking regulations.  That pretty much covers your Adshell vans etc and it makes sense that they are covered to do such.

54and56 · 07-11-2016 12:41PM

Hi GM228,

Thanks for taking the time to so comprehensively respond to the query I had raised. I can clearly see how companies, particularly those swapping advertising posters as opposed to those undertaking necessary repairs or maintenance of "the road" or structures related to the road, would want to utilise the rules in that way as it allows them to get their jobs done more quickly. Having to park legally would probably add 5-10 minutes per job.

The question which still remains for me however is whether the trade off between the convenience enjoyed by private companies utilising the legislation to replace advertising posters (as opposed to essential repair/maintenance) Vs compromising the safety of other road users particularly pedestrians and cyclists is something which was intended by the legislation?

I doubt very much if someone proposed today that the vehicles of private poster swapping companies be given carte blanche to park where they like in order to speed up their work and increase profits whilst compromising safety for pedestrians and cyclists it would be given the green legislative light.

Sounds to me like AdShel etc are taking advantage of legislation which wasn't intended to apply to their circumstances but that's just my opinion. Clearly the Gardai and others agree that in these circumstances economic convenience trumps road safety so c'est la vie I guess.

At least now I have a definitive answer even if I do believe the interpretation is being stretched beyond what was intended in the legislation.

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why would you go to the bother of looking up the legislation on this?
It's not as if you can do anything about it.

@realdanbreen, see above. That's exactly why I wanted to have this conversation. GM228 was kind enough to use his knowledge and contacts to clearly explain how AdShel et al use the current legislation to improve their efficiency when swapping posters. I disagree that the legislation was intended to facilitate such trivial non essential services but they (and clearly the Gardai etc) are happy for them to interpret it in that way so they will I'm sure continue parking on paths, cycle lanes and bus lanes with impunity as least until someone is seriously injured as a result of having their path or vision blocked by one of these vans and a coroner questions whether they should be allowed to park where they like to undertake such non essential activities.

In the meantime I think it would be a good idea for anyone concerned by the safety implications of this practice to take pictures and post them here so a record can be built up which in time, whether months or years, could be used to record how widespread a practice it is and how the Gardai when queried about it gave it their blessing.

Mod
Legal discussion is fine, and is the business of this forum.
I would have reservations about the forum being used in a campaign. Pls don't embark on that until mods here have considered it

Little CuChulainn · 07-11-2016 01:02PM

There are other offences which cover dangerous parking and obstruction of roads and paths that can be used if the vehicle in question is causing a hazard.

hullaballoo · 07-11-2016 01:44PM

Moderator: images of examples of the topic for this discussion are irrelevant to Legal Discussion and will be deleted.

GM228 · 07-11-2016 02:16PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Hi GM228,

Thanks for taking the time to so comprehensively respond to the query I had raised. I can clearly see how companies, particularly those swapping advertising posters as opposed to those undertaking necessary repairs or maintenance of "the road" or structures related to the road, would want to utilise the rules in that way as it allows them to get their jobs done more quickly. Having to park legally would probably add 5-10 minutes per job.

The question which still remains for me however is whether the trade off between the convenience enjoyed by private companies utilising the legislation to replace advertising posters (as opposed to essential repair/maintenance) Vs compromising the safety of other road users particularly pedestrians and cyclists is something which was intended by the legislation?

I doubt very much if someone proposed today that the vehicles of private poster swapping companies be given carte blanche to park where they like in order to speed up their work and increase profits whilst compromising safety for pedestrians and cyclists it would be given the green legislative light.

Sounds to me like AdShel etc are taking advantage of legislation which wasn't intended to apply to their circumstances but that's just my opinion. Clearly the Gardai and others agree that in these circumstances economic convenience trumps road safety so c'est la vie I guess.

At least now I have a definitive answer even if I do believe the interpretation is being stretched beyond what was intended in the legislation.

@realdanbreen, see above. That's exactly why I wanted to have this conversation. GM228 was kind enough to use his knowledge and contacts to clearly explain how AdShel et al use the current legislation to improve their efficiency when swapping posters. I disagree that the legislation was intended to facilitate such trivial non essential services but they (and clearly the Gardai etc) are happy for them to interpret it in that way so they will I'm sure continue parking on paths, cycle lanes and bus lanes with impunity as least until someone is seriously injured as a result of having their path or vision blocked by one of these vans and a coroner questions whether they should be allowed to park where they like to undertake such non essential activities.

In the meantime I think it would be a good idea for anyone concerned by the safety implications of this practice to take pictures and post them here so a record can be built up which in time, whether months or years, could be used to record how widespread a practice it is and how the Gardai when queried about it gave it their blessing.

Mod
Legal discussion is fine, and is the business of this forum.
I would have reservations about the forum being used in a campaign. Pls don't embark on that until mods here have considered it

I suppose weather it was the intention or not is irrelevant, the law allows it to happen so it's not a case of a company using the law to their advantage, it's simply a company doing what they are legally entitled to do. As another poster has stated seperate rules are there for dangerous parking under the Road Traffic Act 1961 and nobody is exempt from that.

The definitions are purposely very broad to allow any vehicle park to do any work on any structure, and yes I think today the same regulation exemptions would exist - considering those regulations are continually reviewed and amended, the last amendment being only this year and before that in 2012.

Also it's important to note that Gardaí do not interpret the law and they don't give it their blessing, it is pretty clearly written that they are exempt, the Gardaí can only go by the law weather they agree with something or not, there's no issue if them agreeing something thrumps safety! When there is an issue about interpretation of law the advice is provided to the Gardaí by the Attorney General, not by Gardaí themselves. Any further clarification could only then come from the courts. But clarification and interpretation is only required where the legislation does not provide any, any vehicle doing any work on any structure is already interpreted in black in white.

54and56 · 07-11-2016 04:48PM

GM228 wrote: »

Also it's important to note that Gardaí do not interpret the law and they don't give it their blessing, it is pretty clearly written that they are exempt, the Gardaí can only go by the law weather they agree with something or not, there's no issue if them agreeing something thrumps safety!

I disagree with you here. The legislation you referenced stated that the work being carried out on the road needs to be "necessary for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users"

Two things in relation to this:-

1. How is frequently replacing the posters on a billboard or on a bus shelter "necessary" for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users? Even if it could be argued that being presented with different adverts for Tayto or Head and Shoulders on a regular basis somehow makes road users lives more interesting or enjoyable how can that be defined as contributing to safety, convenience or amenity? If anything billboards take road users attention away from their use of the road.

2. Do the Gardai not have to make a judgement / interpret whether the activity being carried out resulting in a van being parked on a footpath, cycle lane or bus lane is a "necessary" activity per the legislation? Is replacing an advertising poster a "necessary" activity? How is "necessary" defined? What would happen or would anyone even notice if a poster wasn't replaced? If not how can replacing a poster be considered a "necessary" activity under the legislation?

GM228 · 07-11-2016 07:18PM

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I disagree with you here. The legislation you referenced stated that the work being carried out on the road needs to be "necessary for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users"

Two things in relation to this:-

1. How is frequently replacing the posters on a billboard or on a bus shelter "necessary" for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users? Even if it could be argued that being presented with different adverts for Tayto or Head and Shoulders on a regular basis somehow makes road users lives more interesting or enjoyable how can that be defined as contributing to safety, convenience or amenity? If anything billboards take road users attention away from their use of the road.

2. Do the Gardai not have to make a judgement / interpret whether the activity being carried out resulting in a van being parked on a footpath, cycle lane or bus lane is a "necessary" activity per the legislation? Is replacing an advertising poster a "necessary" activity? How is "necessary" defined? What would happen or would anyone even notice if a poster wasn't replaced? If not how can replacing a poster be considered a "necessary" activity under the legislation?

No the legislation does not require the work to be only necessary work.

(i) necessary for the safety, convenience or amenity of road users or for the construction, maintenance, operation or management of the road or for the protection of the environment

They are maintaining and managing (and operating could potentially satisfy it aswell) the billboards and so the "necessary" part is irrelevant, that subsection contains three seperate requirements, not just the necessary one.

Yes Gardaí do make judgement calls in relation to certain things, a judgement in such a case would be in relation to dangerous parking, not illegal parking.

Gardaí can use judgment to decide if they suspect someone of breaking the law based on legislation or common law (they also have full discretion on weather or not to actually apply the law), however they can't interpret the meaning of law. In other words they could decide they suspect someone of breaking X, Y or Z laws and then decide to take action or not, but they can't decide who X, Y or Z laws do or don't apply to.

Interpreting law and forming a suspicion based on a given set of facts and acting on them are not the same.

54and56 · 07-11-2016 08:42PM

Thanks again GM228, that's very comprehensive.

It seems clear the legislation is as you have explained and that it permits parking on footpaths, cycle lanes and bus lanes for the purpose of swapping advertising posters whilst reducing road safety for pedestrians and cyclists.

That seems like a bizarre trade off given the minor convenience which accrues to AdShel and similar companies performing these non essential commercial tasks relative to the potential downside for pedestrians and cyclists who have to manoeuvre around such parked vehicles or have their line of vision blocked by them.

Thanks again, I very much appreciate your contribution.

ED E · 08-11-2016 11:15AM

While not a topic for LD, when there's no enforcement for those that aren't exempt the existence of such an exemption is totally moot.

Je Suis: if you want bizzare examine Shane Ross' comments on mandatory use.

This has been bugging me for a while

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