Gay Cake Controversy!

lukin · 24-10-2016 06:55PM

I don't mean to sound as if I am mocking them as they are entitled to their religious beliefs it's just that when he said that I thought it was a bit nuts.

The Rape of Lucretia · 24-10-2016 07:01PM

I think whatever two cakes get up to in the privacy of their own bakery is their own business and should not be subject to court or public scrutiny and judgement.

railer201 · 24-10-2016 07:06PM

lukin wrote: »

I don't mean to sound as if I am mocking them as they are entitled to their religious beliefs it's just that when he said that I thought it was a bit nuts.

That's pretty much exactly what these people sincerely believe. They are deeply religious - evangelical Christianity is big in the North.

railer201 · 24-10-2016 07:08PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I think whatever two cakes get up to in the privacy of their own bakery is their own business and should not be subject to court or public scrutiny and judgement.

Within raisin of course.:D

learn_more · 24-10-2016 07:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm atheist but respect other peoples beliefs. Ashers didn't want to bake a cake which they felt was contrary to theirs. To me that's acceptable.

I don't think respect for their belief's has anything to do with it. If it did how would one resolve conflicts if one has respect for both sides beliefs? Which is possible as respect does not imply agreement.

Anyway, the crux of this issue for me was always whether by making the cake that that action implied that Ashers support gay marriage. I think it doesn't and the court said as much today.

Having seen the statement read out by the Ashers owner today I suspect his refusal to make the cake was more a protest action rather than a genuine sense that he was doing something wrong in the eyes of god.

Also the fact that Ashers did not know he was gay is neither here nor there. The customer was discriminated against at the end of the day. It's not about 'gay discrimination', it's just discrimination, full stop.

retro:electro · 24-10-2016 09:03PM

The girl smirking the whole way though yer man's statement really irritated me

Brave_Horatius · 24-10-2016 09:14PM

I'm pro-gay rights but don't agree with this judgement.

The way I look at it, if I, a straight man, went in and asked for the same cake I'd have been refused. They don't agree with the political message on the cake. Simple as.

Now if they'd been asked to make a generic cake for a gay couple and refused because they were a gay couple, that'd be discrimination.

I just honestly don't think they'd have made the cake with that message for anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation.

suicide_circus · 24-10-2016 09:20PM

anna080 wrote: »

The girl smirking the whole way though yer man's statement really irritated me

The burden of a pretty woman

NuMarvel · 24-10-2016 09:35PM

castletownman wrote: »

Yeah he certainly came across that way. Reminded me of that creepy dentist fella that James Nesbitt played in The Secret earlier in the year.

But I wonder is this a storm in a teacup by the gay rights community?

I mean would this have garnered as much attention had he refused to bake a cake for a *INSERT RELIGION HERE* , or one that contained a slogan to repeal the eight? I don't think so.

It is a bit of a storm in a teacup, but in fairness it was one generated by the bakery and their advisers, not the gay advocacy group. It was the bakery that went public first, in a big way, and the manager and his wife (who has nothing to do with the business from what I can tell) were everywhere.

There wouldn't have been nearly as much PR around this if the customer had asked for an "Edward Snowden is right cake" and been refused.

Brave_Horatius wrote: »

I'm pro-gay rights but don't agree with this judgement.

The way I look at it, if I, a straight man, went in and asked for the same cake I'd have been refused. They don't agree with the political message on the cake. Simple as.

Now if they'd been asked to make a generic cake for a gay couple and refused because they were a gay couple, that'd be discrimination.

I just honestly don't think they'd have made the cake with that message for anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation.

The judges set out good reasoning on this:

"The reason that the order was cancelled was that the appellants would not provide a cake with a message supporting a right to marry for those of a particular sexual orientation. This was a case of association with the gay and bisexual community and the protected personal characteristic was the sexual orientation of that community. Accordingly this was direct discrimination."

But even if it wasn't discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, then it was very clearly discrimination on the basis of political opinion. And that's unlawful under NI's equality laws.

DeVore · 24-10-2016 10:23PM

dissed doc wrote: »

He is for real because we live in a tolerant and diverse society which is inclusive of all types and we don't act like ass holes to people because they have different views and beliefs than us.

We do??

Cos it seems like he and this case are a very very strong example of how we actually totally don't.

vicwatson · 24-10-2016 10:30PM

Strasbourg next I'd say

Annasopra · 24-10-2016 10:31PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Strasbourg next I'd say

On what basis?

maryishere · 24-10-2016 10:41PM

Dave0301 wrote: »

Funny that this cake company can be open to persecution when it takes a stance on religious grounds, yet other religious workers can refuse to sell alcohol or meat products based on their religion.

Halalulah, good point

The_Valeyard · 24-10-2016 10:43PM

Well I'm off to the Jewish bakery to get a Muslim Ramadan cake. If they refuse, payday!!

Would the same thing apply to repeal the 8th cakes?

The Rape of Lucretia · 24-10-2016 10:47PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Well I'm off to the Jewish bakery to get a Muslim Ramadan cake. If they refuse, payday!!

As long as it isnt a bakery run by one of the lgbtqiafmc community.

DeVore · 24-10-2016 10:55PM

The Jewish bakery should bake your cake.

The Repeal or Uphold (or whatever they are calling themselves today) cakes should also be made. Its a company, its *licensed* to serve society and given tax breaks as a result. Do your damned job.

dissed doc · 24-10-2016 10:57PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Well I'm off to the Jewish bakery to get a Muslim Ramadan cake. If they refuse, payday!!

Would the same thing apply to repeal the 8th cakes?

Down to the gay baker to order a cake saying: "Marriage is only between a man and a woman"

Down to the Halal butcher to demand he supply me with pork sausages shaped like Mohammad.

In fact, order a picture of a gay Mohammad to be put on a cake made of pork.

Nice ruling. Anarchy instead of live-and-let-live.

Could someone point me in the direction of a feminist pro-abortion cake shop so I can get a cake made up saying "Abortion is wrong".

maryishere · 24-10-2016 10:59PM

DeVore wrote: »

The Jewish bakery should bake your cake.

The Repeal or Uphold (or whatever they are calling themselves today) cakes should also be made. Its a company, its *licensed* to serve society and given tax breaks as a result. Do your damned job.

What tax breaks does a bakery get? I though they collect and submit taxes like other businesses?

It raises an interesting question: if a bakery has to provide all types of cakes, can a muslim supermarket get away with refusing to provide all types of meat ( instead of just halal meat)?

Indeed I remember when licenced pharmacies here were allowed NOT stock contraceptives...I bet there are still some elderly religous pharmacists in the country who refuse to stock contraceptives in their shops.

osarusan · 24-10-2016 11:04PM

dissed doc wrote: »

Down to the Halal butcher to demand he supply me with pork sausages shaped like Mohammad.

In fact, order a picture of a gay Mohammad to be put on a cake made of pork.

They wouldn't have the pork in the shop in the first place, and that wouldn't be discrimination either.

osarusan · 24-10-2016 11:05PM

maryishere wrote: »

It raises an interesting question: if a bakery has to provide all types of cakes, can a muslim supermarket get away with refusing to provide all types of meat ( instead of just halal meat)?

They don't have to provide all kinds of cakes any more than a muslim supermarket would have to provide all types of meat.

That isn't what happened here.

dissed doc · 24-10-2016 11:06PM

osarusan wrote: »

They wouldn't have the pork in the shop in the first place, and that wouldn't be discrimination either.

They serve meat.

They make cakes.

What is the difference. The Halal butcher is allowed not serve some meat products based on their beliefs?

The Christian bakery is NOT allowed NOT serve some bakery products because LGBTLFMAOLOL lobby group will whine and cry?

Calhoun · 24-10-2016 11:10PM

I think the difference is a halal butcher doesn't stock the meat and it's known up front, it's a piece of stock that's not supplied by them.

On the other hand a cake can't have a sexuality because it's a thing and the bakery has chosen not to sell on the basis of who the customer is.

Your scenario would hold weight of the halal butcher said no Christians or gays in my store.

Junkyard Tom · 24-10-2016 11:20PM

Could they not just bake the fucking cake and outsource the icing/lettering?

maryishere · 24-10-2016 11:38PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Could they not just bake the fucking cake and outsource the icing/lettering?

I agree with you there.

If you were a baker, and someone wanted a cake to celebrate say the 12th of July, (or something to do with a dissident group on either side) would you ice it / do lettering on it?

Would a signwriter or printer in N.I have the right to refuse to do something for a different party which they did not agree with - say put a certain slogan on something? Would a bakery in Dublin have a right to refuse to decorate a cake to do with abortion, for example?

I think the customer is always right. If they want to pay their hard earned money for something, so be it.

vicwatson · 24-10-2016 11:42PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

On what basis?

Human rights to refuse weren't upheld, that or I dunno, ask them:rolleyes:

The_Valeyard · 24-10-2016 11:49PM

maryishere wrote: »

I agree with you there.

If you were a baker, and someone wanted a cake to celebrate say the 12th of July, (or something to do with a dissident group on either side) would you ice it / do lettering on it?

Would a signwriter or printer in N.I have the right to refuse to do something for a different party which they did not agree with - say put a certain slogan on something? Would a bakery in Dublin have a right to refuse to decorate a cake to do with abortion, for example?

I think the customer is always right. If they want to pay their hard earned money for something, so be it.

Interesting point. Is a Sinn Fein / republican bakery now obliged to make a 12th July Cake? Now they probably make it and piss on it, but still, where do you draw the line?

Yakuza · 24-10-2016 11:49PM

They should have baked a cake with "Don't support gay marriage" it, with the "Don't" in delicious frosting that could have been picked off by the client. Mmm, sacrelicious...

On a serious note, I've held varying opinions on this, starting with "ah sure they're a small business being targeted by some hard line activist group trying to make them a point, leave them be / live and let live" but more recently (and re-enforced by seeing the owner on TV today) it's more like "do you know what, your religious convictions should have nothing to do with any services you're offering to the public". A bit like that woman in Kentucky that was jailed for refusing to issue a marriage licence to a gay couple, you can't not do what could be reasonably expected of you (i.e. in your skill set and among services you offer) just because you don't agree with the message it depicts. You are perfectly entitled to follow your convictions in how you carry out your private life, but when you're dealing with the public, time to leave those convictions at home.

If I were to turn around and say to the Revenue Commissioners, "sorry, it's against my religion to pay any form of tax", I'd get pretty short shrift.

The_Valeyard · 24-10-2016 11:55PM

Yakuza wrote: »

They should have baked a cake with "Don't support gay marriage" it, with the "Don't" in delicious frosting that could have been picked off by the client. Mmm, sacrelicious...

On a serious note, I've held varying opinions on this, starting with "ah sure they're a small business being targeted by some hard line activist group trying to make them a point, leave them be / live and let live" but more recently (and re-enforced by seeing the owner on TV today) it's more like "do you know what, your religious convictions should have nothing to do with any services you're offering to the public". A bit like that woman in Kentucky that was jailed for refusing to issue a marriage licence to a gay couple, you can't not do what could be reasonably expected of you (i.e. in your skill set and among services you offer) just because you don't agree with the message it depicts. You are perfectly entitled to follow your convictions in how you carry out your private life, but when you're dealing with the public, time to leave those convictions at home.

If I were to turn around and say to the Revenue Commissioners, "sorry, it's against my religion to pay any form of tax", I'd get pretty short shrift.

Fine.

But no special snowflakes.

Gay bakery must make no gay marriage cake.

Feminist bakery must make love both/ save 8th cake

Muslim's must handle pork and wine if working in supermarket.

Needs to be across the board, not one rule for one crowd, another rule for another.

Junkyard Tom · 24-10-2016 11:55PM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Interesting point. Is a Sinn Fein republican bakery now obliged to make a 12th July Cake?

Besides scale there probably isn't a huge difference between mixing the ingredients for a fertilizer bomb and a cake.

NuMarvel · 24-10-2016 11:58PM

maryishere wrote: »

Would a signwriter or printer in N.I have the right to refuse to do something for a different party which they did not agree with - say put a certain slogan on something?

If the printer refused because they didn't agree with the customer's political opinion, then it would be breaking NI's equality laws. But they'd still have the right to refuse for other reasons, eg if the slogan contained profanity.

maryishere wrote: »

Would a bakery in Dublin have a right to refuse to decorate a cake to do with abortion, for example?

I think they would. I don't think a refusal would contravene our equality laws, which are different from NI's.

Gay Cake Controversy!

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