UK Votes to leave EU

maryishere · 16-10-2016 05:00PM

greendom wrote: »

With the rebate and the EU money that would no longer need to go to under-privileged areas in the UK what is the actual net loss to the EU?

One thing for certain, the UK has woken up. The days of an Irish Taoiseach coming home with an extra 8 billion in "free" EU money - like Albert Reynolds did after the meeting in Edinburgh in 1992 are well over.
Ah well, we done well out of the EC / EU handouts while they lasted. The UK can spend its money on itself when Brexit occurs. No wasteful Brussels telling it what to do.

maryishere · 16-10-2016 05:03PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was worse in Timbuktu though, I suppose. :rolleyes:

It was much worse here in Ireland. Timbuktu did not need an IMF / UK / EU bailout, nor did it foreign debt more than quadruple. We are still borrowing. Our property market is still ******, especially outside Dublin. Many people are still in huge negative equity. Many pensions lost their savings in the Irish banks, whose shares are now worthless. Many Irish people had to emigrate since 2007. But it was worse in Timbuktu, sez you!

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 05:05PM

maryishere wrote: »

It was much worse here in Ireland. Timbuktu did not need an IMF / UK / EU bailout, nor did it foreign debt more than quadruple. We are still borrowing. Our property market is still ******, especially outside Dublin.

And it was worse in Greece than it was in Ireland. So what?

Means nothing when I asked 'What good had it done for the UK?'. They still had a double dip recession, austerity and unemployment rises.

Grayson · 16-10-2016 05:06PM

maryishere wrote: »

The ability to set it's own interest rates rather than being subjected to rates set for the German economy served the UK well this past 12 or 14 years. We in Ireland had **** all say in setting interest rates in the Eurozone, and in 2002 - 2006 interest rates were far to low for Ireland - they were set to suit the Germans and Brussels. The resultant property boom and subsequent crash and bank bailout is something our grandchildren will still be paying for.

The UK had not as bad a property crash as ours, and their unemployment is less than half the EU average. They were proved right.

So it wasn't caused by banks choosing to give out loans to people who could barely pay them back. It wasn't because of the government allowing 100% mortgages? Yes, interest rates were low, but the government could have worked around them. Instead they did everything they could to keep a bubble inflating even when it was obvious that the bubble was unsustainable.

This is the problem with people who allow ideology to infect their thinking. They create a boogy man who's responsible for for everything rather that actually looking at evidence.

maryishere · 16-10-2016 05:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And it was worse in Greece than it was in Ireland. So what?
.

Goes to show the British were correct in keeping sterling 12 or 14 years ago. They kept control of their interest rates. Our were pegged to Germany instead, which as explained earlier cost us dearly.

They UK was proved right yet again.;)

Grayson wrote: »

So it wasn't caused by banks choosing to give out loans to people who could barely pay them back. It wasn't because of the government allowing 100% mortgages? Yes, interest rates were low, but the government could have worked around them. Instead they did everything they could to keep a bubble inflating even when it was obvious that the bubble was unsustainable.
.

We wanted our independence, we had to pay for it.

greendom · 16-10-2016 05:09PM

maryishere wrote: »

One thing for certain, the UK has woken up. The days of an Irish Taoiseach coming home with an extra 8 billion in "free" EU money - like Albert Reynolds did after the meeting in Edinburgh in 1992 are well over.
Ah well, we done well out of the EC / EU handouts while they lasted. The UK can spend its money on itself when Brexit occurs. No wasteful Brussels telling it what to do.

What makes you think the UK government will be any less wasteful with the money.

Strikes me as a typical tabloid soundbite.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 05:10PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And it was worse in Greece than it was in Ireland. So what?

Means nothing when I asked 'What good had it done for the UK?'. They still had a double dip recession, austerity and unemployment rises.

But their room for manoeuvre was limited by being part of the EU. Taking back control will allow them full scope to handle such European or global shocks in the best interest of Britain, not restrained by the compromise, horse trading, bullying, and federal project oriented agenda of the EU that conflicts with UK desires and interest. Had they had full control from 2008 onwards, they may well have reduced or avoided the impact of those events. In a way, it is the realisation of this and the price that has been paid in the last 8 years from not having full control that has prompted this Brexit.

Grayson · 16-10-2016 05:10PM

maryishere wrote: »

We wanted our independence, we had to pay for it.

what the hell is that supposed to mean?

catbear · 16-10-2016 05:12PM

Grayson wrote: »

This is the problem with people who allow ideology to infect their thinking. They create a boogy man who's responsible for for everything rather that actually looking at evidence.

A positive of Brexit is that domestic politicians will be less inclined to blame the EU for things that are really domestic matters. Now it's been amply illustrated that blaming the EU for everything can mean voters will take you seriously and then who do politicians blame then?

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 05:12PM

maryishere wrote: »

Goes to show the British were correct in keeping sterling 12 or 14 years ago. They kept control of their interest rates. Our were pegged to Germany instead, which as explained earlier cost us dearly.

They UK was proved right yet again.;)

We wanted our independence, we had to pay for it.

They still had a double dip recession, austerity and a rise in unemployment.

So if Jamaica has a hurricane that is worse than the one that hits Britain, doe the British one do no damage or have no effect?

Sorry for the childlike analogy but what can I do here?

maryishere · 16-10-2016 05:14PM

greendom wrote: »

What makes you think the UK government will be any less wasteful with the money.

They will have it to spend in their own jurisdiction rather than giving it to the likes of Albert Reynolds to splash around, or to Greek Public sector workers who work 30 hour weeks and retire in their fifties. The UK government is generally not wasteful with money in its own jurisdiction : for example, their NHS is run much more efficiently than our health service.

catbear · 16-10-2016 05:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sorry for the childlike analogy but what can I do here?

Use the ignore button.

Enzokk · 16-10-2016 05:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

That they will refuse to negotiate EU membership with an independent Scotland, yes.

As has been pointed out he cannot negotiate with Scotland while they are in the UK, which makes sense. Probably why Nicola Sturgeon is now talking about another referendum to leave the UK, she has had talks with EU leaders and there is no way that while Scotland is part of the UK that has left the EU, they could be part of the EU.

maryishere wrote: »

Goes to show the British were correct in keeping sterling 12 or 14 years ago. They kept control of their interest rates. Our were pegged to Germany instead, which as explained earlier cost us dearly.

They UK was proved right yet again.;)

We wanted our independence, we had to pay for it.

Is there any scenario where the UK is wrong in your view? Have they done anything that was wrong? Let me guess, there were WMD's in Iraq!

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 05:14PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But their room for manoeuvre was limited by being part of the EU. Taking back control will allow them full scope to handle such European or global shocks in the best interest of Britain, not restrained by the compromise, horse trading, bullying, and federal project oriented agenda of the EU that conflicts with UK desires and interest. Had they had full control from 2008 onwards, they may well have reduced or avoided the impact of those events. In a way, it is the realisation of this and the price that has been paid in the last 8 years from not having full control that has prompted this Brexit.

They had to go cap in hand to the IMF shortly before their entry to the EEC. How long until they are back, one wonders, when they leave.

Grayson · 16-10-2016 05:15PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But their room for manoeuvre was limited by being part of the EU. Taking back control will allow them full scope to handle such European or global shocks in the best interest of Britain, not restrained by the compromise, horse trading, bullying, and federal project oriented agenda of the EU that conflicts with UK desires and interest. Had they had full control from 2008 onwards, they may well have reduced or avoided the impact of those events. In a way, it is the realisation of this and the price that has been paid in the last 8 years from not having full control that has prompted this Brexit.

The greeks wouldn't have been better in 2008. If they'd not been in the euro and had not been in the EU it probably would have been worse. They wouldn't have had multiple bailouts. They would have defaulted. The government would have been incapable of raising any money except through private sector selloffs. There would have still been massive austerity with massive public sector cuts.

The fact is that the greeks were fecked one way or another. It's because the greek government cooked the books for years. It wasn't the EU that caused the depth of the crash it was corruption that did it.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 05:15PM

Grayson wrote: »

what the hell is that supposed to mean?

That Ireland would have had an immeasurably better sort over the last 100 years had it not exited the UK, in all aspects of economy, culture, education, nutrition, healthcare, and standard of living. But it did decide it wanted to take back control from London, and so did so, come what may. It accepted the 80 years of backwards looking stagnation and poverty as a price for tacking back control, and at least being in control of its own poverty. The UK is doing the same now. Respect their similar decision, which is far smaller than ours in its economic and political magnitude.

Zubeneschamali · 16-10-2016 05:17PM

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Terrorist or freedom fighter, depends really on who the winner is

Yep, so the IRA (the one from the 60s) were terrorists since they failed, and took up jobs administering the failed Orange apartheid statelet for their Westminster colonialist masters.

Did I get that right? Hard to follow Republican logic sometimes.

maryishere · 16-10-2016 05:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They had to go cap in hand to the IMF shortly before their entry to the EEC.

The unions had the UK wrecked then, it has been governed better since the early eighties.;) Now they help the IMP bail out places like us.

Grayson · 16-10-2016 05:17PM

catbear wrote: »

A positive of Brexit is that domestic politicians will be less inclined to blame the EU for things that are really domestic matters. Now it's been amply illustrated that blaming the EU for everything can mean voters will take you seriously and then who do politicians blame then?

The problem is that it looks more and more like it will be a hard brexit with a default to WTO rules. If that happens companies will flee Britain. There will be massive unemployment and huge cutbacks. The tories might even get top sell off chunks of the NHS.

Who's to blame for all that? Not the Tories, it'll still be the EU's fault according to them.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 05:18PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They had to go cap in hand to the IMF shortly before their entry to the EEC. How long until they are back, one wonders, when they leave.

Again, that may happen. But at least it will be their cap and they will be in contro, not a dictat from a Troika that has other countries consideration foremost before the UK.

youreadthat · 16-10-2016 05:20PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Well, it isn't little Englander at all. It generally has an outlook on the world that is a lot closer to ours, particularly as you go further away from the English border.

They were more industrially successful than Ireland due to the availability of mineral wealth in the Scottish lowlands, but the history in the rest of Scotland has huge parallels to Ireland e.g. the highland clearances, emigration to North America and Australia/NZ.

Ireland definitely had a more extreme version of this, but Scotland was basically on the receiving end of more or less the same treatment.

I don't think most Scots have a view that they were an imperial power and many would have a sense of having family who were scattered all over the place due to abysmal 19th century UK government policy.

Modern Scotland's also completely at odds with the Tories when it comes to social and economic policy. It's far more socially focused.

So how do you explain that every time social attitudes are polled people in England and Scotland come out broadly similar? The only difference is that because of uneven devolution and an out of touch Labour Party, the SNP have been able to do a UKIP, except instead of blaming everything on the EU they do it to Westminster. There are tonnes of right wingers in the SNP, the whole progressive stick is an illusion, hence their nothing record in government. I'm always deeply suspicious of any Irish pleased to see one island with a shared culture, history and language potentially dissected by a hard border but yet bemoan the same closer to home. People should just own up to being anti-English Neanderthals so we can cut to the chase quicker.

Zubeneschamali · 16-10-2016 05:21PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But at least it will be their cap and they will be in contro, not a dictat from a Troika that has other countries consideration foremost before the UK.

What do you imagine happens when you call in the IMF? Cocktail parties?

If it happens, the IMF will be in control.

Enzokk · 16-10-2016 05:21PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Again, that may happen. But at least it will be their cap and they will be in contro, not a dictat from a Troika that has other countries consideration foremost before the UK.

Are you saying it is better to be in need of a bailout but free of the EU, than in the EU and in no need of a bailout? Strange logic...but we have control!

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 05:21PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Again, that may happen. But at least it will be their cap and they will be in contro, not a dictat from a Troika that has other countries consideration foremost before the UK.

And tell us what difference that will make to the UK citizen...I'll give you a clue...zero.

Zubeneschamali · 16-10-2016 05:24PM

youreadthat wrote: »

I'm always deeply suspicious of any Irish pleased to see one island with a shared culture, history and language potentially dissected by a hard border but yet bemoan the same closer to home. People should just own up to being anti-English Neanderthals so we can cut to the chase quicker.

a) You never saw me complain about the border. I'd dig a Dundalk to Derry canal, and fill it with piranhas and jumping sharks to keep those head-the-balls out of my country.

b) Of course we are all anti-English. It's comical how the English think everyone is their friend really - no, we aren't: 800 years etc etc.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 05:27PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Are you saying it is better to be in need of a bailout but free of the EU, than in the EU and in no need of a bailout? Strange logic...but we have control!

Thats is their choice. The analogy to Ireland 100 years ago is very apt. 'What, Ireland want to leave the most powerful richest golbal empire the world has ever seen.....so that they will have control!'. But we chose it nonetheless.

A Dub in Glasgo · 16-10-2016 05:28PM

Blazer wrote: »

Who actually thinks the Scots will vote for Independence?
Every scot I know has said they're staying with the UK as they're part of it.
They might not like the the way the vote went but at the end of the day they all say, we're part of the UK and we want it to stay that way.
All the papers have been repeating Sturgeon's point of view but no one from the opposite view.

I do, you need to speak outside the UK union circle

All the papers in Scotland are pro-UK union

Grayson · 16-10-2016 05:29PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

a) You never saw me complain about the border. I'd dig a Dundalk to Derry canal, and fill it with piranhas and jumping sharks to keep those head-the-balls out of my country.

b) Of course we are all anti-English. It's comical how the English think everyone is their friend really - no, we aren't: 800 years etc etc.

I wouldn't describe myself as anti English. In fact I do feel sorry for all the regular people who are going to be fecked by brexit. However we do need to think of our own people. If a hard brexit does indeed happen we can get tens of thousands of jobs over here from London. I don't think it makes me anti english to want to see us get the best we can from it.

CMOTDibbler · 16-10-2016 05:35PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

a) You never saw me complain about the border. I'd dig a Dundalk to Derry canal, and fill it with piranhas and jumping sharks to keep those head-the-balls out of my country.

b) Of course we are all anti-English. It's comical how the English think everyone is their friend really - no, we aren't: 800 years etc etc.

Speak for yourself.

Who effing died and let you be my spokesperson?

Enzokk · 16-10-2016 05:40PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats is their choice. The analogy to Ireland 100 years ago is very apt. 'What, Ireland want to leave the most powerful richest golbal empire the world has ever seen.....so that they will have control!'. But we chose it nonetheless.

The analogy isn't apt. How do you compare a country that chose to be part of the EU to Ireland in 1916? Are you suggesting that it was a choice to have the UK in control of Ireland?

UK Votes to leave EU

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