Why the Irish need to pay themselves less

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 08:52AM

People should be paid the highest amount they can get in this market.

This isn't a command economy and everyone tries to maximise their earning potential to get to a work - life balance.

Ireland's doing pretty OK at the moment and we don't need to be going around trying to bottom feed for wages.

Nor is some kind of situation where we all work like little elves in Santa's Sweatshop a particularly good idea. We should be aiming for maximum output with least slog - high productivity.

If you want to look at improving costs here; things like compensation culture and massive insurance overheads, astronomical legal fees that are caused by what amounts to a rigged market; the banking oligopoly; making more use of the single European market for goods and not just buying absolutely everything from UK distributors, improving energy systems, etc etc etc

Driving wages down just drives everyone's quality of life down, damages spending power and destroys the economy.

I would much rather see Ireland continuing to be a place where people can work smart and earn decent money rather than being a place where most people are working hand to mouth which is what happens when you drive down wages.

_Brian · 14-10-2016 08:52AM

I read through some of OP post there again and TBH it's quite shocking.

It reads like a KKK research paper on why we should reintroduce slavery and how it would help service the national debt and so slavery is actually a form of public service where the slaves should be proud of their contribution to society.

It truly is a disturbing read that the notion is somehow comprehendable that we should further reduce the living standards of the low paid in society and ask them to model their lives on those trapped within third world economic systems.

It's sickening stuff.

Mark Hamill · 14-10-2016 09:18AM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

making more use of the single European market for goods and not just buying absolutely everything from UK distributors,

This may not always be by choice. The company I work for (locks and safes industry) always tries to buy our wares direct from the manufacturers themselves, but we have had many manufacturers (even European based manufacturers) direct us to their UK affiliates for purchases, as the UK affiliate has selling rights for UK and Ireland. Hopefully this will die when Brexit is finally fulfilled and the UK fully leaves the EU, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't. Most international companies in our industry don't give a crap about the Irish market.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 09:19AM

Those rights will have to be torn up after Brexit even if it's by EU directive.

They'll give a crap if they're facing a massive fine for attempting to distort the market.

It might be one area where we should be getting that commissioner on the case. If she can take on Apple for €13 billion she can deal with a few of those exclusive distributor deals that are distorting the market here.

Mark Hamill · 14-10-2016 09:34AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Working for extremely low pay is an investment in the future. The benefits accumulate in the form of revenue for the government

How?
If you make a significant proportion of the poorest workers even poorer then they will spend even less (thereby given less to revenue in terms of VAT on purchases) and require more social supports to survive (thereby taking more out of government funds).
Domestic companies will have to lower prices to match the lower disposable income workers will have, thus killing any potentially re-investable profit made from paying them less, whereas International companies will simply take advantage of our low corporation tax rates to pocket the money saved on wages whilst selling their wares for the same costs to the higher earners in foreign markets.
And in order to sell competitively in markets like Africa and Asia against their local producers, we would have to operate even cheaper than their producers do, to combat the cost of transportation our goods to them.

You whole argument seems like really badly thought up justifications for trickle-down economics - the poor should work poorer to let the rich get richer so they can help the poor, because the rich just aren't quite rich enough to help now.

realitykeeper wrote: »

Everyone should demand lower pay because Irish politicians have to be led, they need to be shown the way by an enlightened public.

Why not just use our votes to show them the way?

Letree · 14-10-2016 09:37AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Working for extremely low pay is an investment in the future.
.

Are you willing to work for much less? Or let me guess its only other people you want to do it.

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 09:50AM

Letree wrote:

Are you willing to work for much less? Or let me guess its only other people you want to do it.

This question was posed to the OP by several posters, the fact he has refused to answer is telling.

realitykeeper · 14-10-2016 09:53AM

The benefits of a low cost economy are self evident when you compare house building in Ireland with that of a third world country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-2ckJ81igQ

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 10:04AM

realitykeeper wrote:

The benefits of a low cost economy are self evident when you compare house building in Ireland with that of a third world country:

So any chance will you enlighten people here, have you taken a cut in your wages you know for the good of future generations or is it just everyone else that should do it?

realitykeeper · 14-10-2016 10:18AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

As this is your suggestion I assume you will lead by example, how much of a voluntary cut have you imposed upon yourself? Maybe provide proof that you have done so.
I often find those are requiring others to accept lower living standards are reluctant to embrace those standards themselves. Maybe you're an exception.

I am not a martyr but the ICTU could and should lobby its members to in turn lobby their members to take a massive and collective pay cut. Then demand the politicians follow their lead.

_Brian · 14-10-2016 10:19AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The benefits of a low cost economy are self evident when you compare house building in Ireland with that of a third world country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-2ckJ81igQ

Why the constant need to model ourselves on third world country economics.. I've visited third world countries and I saw nothing there I'd like to see replicated in Ireland.

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 10:20AM

realitykeeper wrote:

I am not a martyr but the ICTU could and should lobby its members to in turn lobby their members to take a massive and collective pay cut. Then demand the politicians follow their lead.

So you're not prepared to do what you advocate for others to do. Thought so. Fair play though I thought you were serious seems this was a trolling thread.

realitykeeper · 14-10-2016 10:30AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

So you're not prepared to do what you advocate for others to do. Thought so. Fair play though I thought you were serious seems this was a trolling thread.

I am prepared to take a big pay cut along with everyone else, and then demand the politicians do the same. If it were only me, nothing would change.

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 10:32AM

realitykeeper wrote:

I am prepared to take a big pay cut along with everyone else, and then demand the politicians do the same. If it were only me, nothing would change.

Off with you, starts with the individual. :-) BTW you might want to revisit your user name comes across as somewhat of an oxymoron. Bye bye.

realitykeeper · 14-10-2016 10:59AM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Ireland's doing pretty OK at the moment and we don't need to be going around trying to bottom feed for wages.

Driving wages down just drives everyone's quality of life down, damages spending power and destroys the economy.

I would much rather see Ireland continuing to be a place where people can work smart and earn decent money rather than being a place where most people are working hand to mouth which is what happens when you drive down wages.

Ireland is not doing ok. It is a third world country, it just doesn`t know it yet. I was laughing at Michael Noonan during his budget speech for saying Ireland will end deficit spending in 2018. That is the year deficit spending will explode following the debasement of the Euro and the next super round of QE.

Using borrowed money to buy foreign goods may help GDP in the short term but it makes matters worse in the longer term.

The Irish do not "work smart". Buying equipment, to boost productivity is fine if it is not financed with money that is both borrowed and in an economy that uses a currency that is setting itself up for a major devaluation. The number one rule of investing is not to get into debt in order to do it. That is gambling and in a high cost economy, the odds are stacked against you.

Stoogie · 14-10-2016 11:06AM

In effect this is what Britain has done by the huge drop in the value of sterling. The repercussions are already starting of course, there is no marmite in tesco.

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 11:08AM

Stoogie wrote:

In effect this is what Britain has done by the huge drop in the value of sterling. The repercussions are already starting of course, there is no marmite in tesco.

Not true, Unilever have reached a deal with Tesco's that delicious/disgusting treat is back on the shelves.

Stoogie · 14-10-2016 11:10AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Not true, Unilever have reached a deal with Tesco's that delicious/disgusting treat is back on the shelves.

Ok, well that's ok I'll ask my boss for a 25%pay cut on Monday so.

Letree · 14-10-2016 11:12AM

Unilever are acting the goat they have no reason to be looking for 19% increases of the Irish consumer. They are currently trying to bully super valu. I think i'll stop buying their stuff either way.

chahop · 14-10-2016 11:17AM

Feck that realitykeeper, I have been hounding my boss for pay rises for the last year to try and get prepped for the Hyperinflation you keep warning about.

Wanderer78 · 14-10-2016 11:18AM

This race to the bottom nonsense has to stop, it's extremely destructive for society as a whole. I completely agree with Michael Hudson that the FIRE sector is doing more harm to society than good. I would also include large corporations in this to, they are not truly helping society, or as Hudson says, they are a parasite on society. Like others have said, I to want a more equal society. Neoliberalism and free market economics is not working for the masses, and it is also causing massive amounts of environmental damage globally. It's back to the drawing board with us or we're potentially heading back to war and/or total environmental destruction.

nhunter100 · 14-10-2016 11:33AM

Stoogie wrote:

Ok, well that's ok I'll ask my boss for a 25%pay cut on Monday so.

I'm sure he'll happily oblige you.

14-10-2016 11:34AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

By not affording things, people can force prices down. With no buyers, prices must fall.

Not automatically - If the price is too low the transaction might not take place at all. Buyer doesn't get good or service, seller doesn't get sale, economy is smaller.

One of the things that dragged Europe out of the dark ages was the death of serfs due to plague.
Work still had to be done so the remaining workers could demand higher wages, Lords and employers looked for efficiency improvements to compensate for the higher wages, technology and skills improved and the economy grew.
A virtuous circle established itself by more effective or efficient workers demanding and receiving higher better wages.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 11:42AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Ireland is not doing ok. It is a third world country, it just doesn`t know it yet. I was laughing at Michael Noonan during his budget speech for saying Ireland will end deficit spending in 2018. That is the year deficit spending will explode following the debasement of the Euro and the next super round of QE.

Using borrowed money to buy foreign goods may help GDP in the short term but it makes matters worse in the longer term.

The Irish do not "work smart". Buying equipment, to boost productivity is fine if it is not financed with money that is both borrowed and in an economy that uses a currency that is setting itself up for a major devaluation. The number one rule of investing is not to get into debt in order to do it. That is gambling and in a high cost economy, the odds are stacked against you.

At that rate you might as well write off most of the most developed economies of the world as 3rd world. Most of them are borrowed heavily.

The country ranks amongst the top ranking of the human development index and most other indices.

As for working smart, I assume you've done a survey of Irish companies and concluded we are all some sort of morons ?!?

Almost no country or business can function without credit (debt).

imitation · 14-10-2016 11:48AM

Yes the manual workers should take a cut, it would be a boon to the economy ! Never mind that cutting the wages of skilled workers would do far more good for the economy and everybody else, but that might be too close to home.

Its much better to get everybody setup on an equal basis and do there fair shate rather than this whole "they" should pay mentality people have..

realitykeeper · 14-10-2016 12:27PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

At that rate you might as well write off most of the most developed economies of the world as 3rd world.

I already have.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 12:31PM

Letree wrote: »

Unilever are acting the goat they have no reason to be looking for 19% increases of the Irish consumer. They are currently trying to bully super valu. I think i'll stop buying their stuff either way.

It's utterly ludicrous.

The only explanation I can see is Unilever must be using some kind of internal fixed exchange rate to convert £ to "Irish Euro". Thus when Sterling sank and the numerical value went up on the products they just attempted to hike the price here.

The result would be 19% more profit here vs status quo in their home market.

I'm not buying any more Unilever products and I sincerely hope the supermarkets here bring in new ranges from competitors like Henkel which isn't present here at all. Unilever deserve to get a dose of market reality for this stunt!

Dunnes and SuperValu are no pushovers and I hope they absolutely clobber them for this.

We need to break the link with being seen as an adjunct of the UK market anyway. It's exposing us to currency fluctuations anyway.

Our consumer products from those large multinations should be coming from the Eurozone not the UK.

Actually it's a good reason why Ireland shouldn't adopt weird UK standards too - how much of a premium are we paying to have an oversized 13amp plug for example when it basically has no technical advantage - the continental version isn't killing millions of Swedes, Finns, French and Germans despite what the UK tabloids would have you think.

johnnyskeleton · 14-10-2016 01:24PM

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Mod Note:

Please read the charter. This forum requires a certain level of contribution from posters. Simply calling another poster's comment drivel falls below that standard. If you think he is wrong, demonstrate how he is.

Letree · 14-10-2016 01:52PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I'm not buying any more Unilever products and I sincerely hope the supermarkets here bring in new ranges from competitors like Henkel which isn't present here at all. Unilever deserve to get a dose of market reality for this stunt!

Dunnes and SuperValu are no pushovers and I hope they absolutely clobber them for this.

Proctor & Gamble are another massive company selling similar products.

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 02:04PM

Letree wrote: »

Proctor & Gamble are another massive company selling similar products.

Yeah they've serious competition and if P&G had any sense this is a huge opportunity to wrap themselves in an Irish flag.

I can definitely find very good alternatives to most of their products and many good Irish ones, particularly Barry's Tea in place of Lyons and there are tons of nicer options than HB Ice Cream. I'll quite happily use Ariel as opposed to Persil.

This move could well push a lot of people over to store brands too. I found a lot of the laundry products really very good and significantly cheaper.

Why the Irish need to pay themselves less

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