UK Votes to leave EU

maryishere · 11-10-2016 11:24PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

..., and not be negatively affected whatsoever.

Noby ever claimed the UK could or would "not be negatively affected whatsoever". However there could also be very positive consequences for the UK as a result of Brexit. Especially with what it happening and likely to happen to the rest of the EU.

tomwaterford · 11-10-2016 11:24PM

maryishere wrote: »

Especially with what it happening and likely to happen to the rest of the EU.

Which is :pac:

FrancieBrady · 11-10-2016 11:25PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Mary is absolutely right. The UK has had a wonderfully low unemployment rate during its time in the EU. Probably due to the EU taking 47% of UK exports.
I'd imagine this will change over the next 2 years and then once Brexit is complete given the fact that the UK won't get as good a deal it has now (because it won't accept the obligations of the single market). You have to go through some serious mental gymnastics to believe that a country can leave the single largest single market in the world, which accounts for nearly half of all its exports and currently all of its trade deals with the rest of the world, and not be negatively affected whatsoever.

Mary has already said she doesnt know how it will pan out but is flat out ranting against anybody who has a criticism to make about how the UK is proceeding.
Hilarious? Stay tuned for more.

Junkyard Tom · 11-10-2016 11:26PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You haven't made a point that is understandable in any known language or dialect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHTxOlFfUa0

Anita Blow · 11-10-2016 11:31PM

maryishere wrote: »

Anita Blow wrote: »

..., and not be negatively affected whatsoever.

Noby ever claimed the UK could or would "not be negatively affected whatsoever". However there could also be very positive consequences for the UK as a result of Brexit. Especially with what it happening and likely to happen to the rest of the EU.

And what is happening with the rest of the EU? You point to Southern European countries' unemployment rates as if its reflective of the EU, but it isn't. What about Czech Republic with its rate of 4%? Or Malta at 4.1%? Or Germany at 4.2%?
I mean really its irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that its the single largest economy and single biggest market for the UK

maryishere · 11-10-2016 11:35PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Mary has already said she doesnt know how it will pan out .

Nobody knows for certain how it will pan out. However, those who said 15 years ago the UK was finished if it did not adopt the Euro were proved wrong, and I would wager the usual suspects will be proved wrong again.

Did you read Wolfgang Münchau's article in todays Irish Times? Interesting reading. He looks at another country in Europe with an unsustainable business model: Ireland. "It offers low corporate tax rates and legal tax avoidance to foreign investors. The ruling by the European Commission to force Apple to pay €13 billion to the Irish Government in taxes is a sign that this model may not be sustainable for much longer. Brussels is also pushing towards a harmonisation of the corporate tax basis – the rules of what to tax.
Dublin has been resisting such a change, but with the UK out of the EU it will lose an ally in the fight against EU-imposed tax harmonisation. Ireland has done well from its tax haven status. But this model is unsustainable.
Confluence
Perhaps the confluence of Brexit and the long-term loss of a business model will persuade Ireland to follow the UK out of the EU."

tomwaterford · 11-10-2016 11:41PM

maryishere wrote: »

Nobody knows for certain how it will pan out. However, those who said 15 years ago the UK was finished if it did not adopt the Euro were proved wrong, and I would wager the usual suspects will be proved wrong again.

Did you read Wolfgang Münchau's article in todays Irish Times? Interesting reading. He looks at another country in Europe with an unsustainable business model: Ireland. "It offers low corporate tax rates and legal tax avoidance to foreign investors. The ruling by the European Commission to force Apple to pay €13 billion to the Irish Government in taxes is a sign that this model may not be sustainable for much longer. Brussels is also pushing towards a harmonisation of the corporate tax basis – the rules of what to tax.
Dublin has been resisting such a change, but with the UK out of the EU it will lose an ally in the fight against EU-imposed tax harmonisation. Ireland has done well from its tax haven status. But this model is unsustainable.
Confluence
Perhaps the confluence of Brexit and the long-term loss of a business model will persuade Ireland to follow the UK out of the EU."

So your sole argument that the UK leaving Europe is good is that there's a remote possibility that they'll try harmonise corporate tax laws (can't by lisbon iirc)

And at that....Ireland will still be the largest English speaking country in the eu if there is to be harmonised corporate tax laws

Surly you can do even a lil bit better than that?

maryishere · 11-10-2016 11:42PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

And what is happening with the rest of the EU? You point to Southern European countries' unemployment rates as if its reflective of the EU, but it isn't. What about Czech Republic with its rate of 4%? Or Malta at 4.1%? Or Germany at 4.2%?
I mean really its irrelevant.

Unemployment is the EU as a whole ( inc the UK where it is only 4.8% ) is over 10%. Europe has much higher unemployment than USA, Japan etc, and has, lower growth etc than anywhere else. It is relevant, but I believe the main reason most voters in England voted for Brexit was because of the very high population density there - much higher than in Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, USA, Oz, wherever.

If Ireland has the population density of England and had been a net contributor to EC funds for decades, would you vote for IRexit ?

tomwaterford · 11-10-2016 11:44PM

maryishere wrote: »

Unemployment is the EU as a whole ( inc the UK where it is only 4.8% ) is over 10%. Europe has much higher unemployment than USA, Japan etc, and has, lower growth etc than anywhere else. It is relevant, but I believe the main reason most voters in England voted for Brexit was because of the very high population density there - much higher than in Ireland, France, Germany, Spain, USA, Oz, wherever.

If Ireland has the population density of England and had been a net contributor to EC funds for decades, would you vote for IRexit ?

Is moderate to high unemployment not the cornerstone of capitalism??
An over supply of labour keeps wages low... (supply and demand principlr)

dasdog · 11-10-2016 11:58PM

In complete contrast to what's been happening today, Sterling just jumped 1% in the last 20 mins on news the UK are willing to pay billions to access the common market.

maryishere · 11-10-2016 11:58PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Is moderate to high unemployment not the cornerstone of capitalism??

No. Successful economies do not have high unemployment like Spain and Greece.

Now care to answer the questions?

steddyeddy · 12-10-2016 12:01AM

maryishere wrote: »

Because someone else was talking about unemployment in UK as if it was the end of the world, and it is the UK's relationship with the EC which is the point of this thread. I put unemployment in the UK in context by pointing out its less than half the EU average and has been for a long time. Now will you answer my point:
Unemployment in the southern EU countries like Spain and Greece are 19.5% and 23.4% - the UK has been supporting Europe (inc ourselves ) for decades and now YOU are worrying about the UK economy, with its unemployment of less than 5%?

The EU is a trading bloc. Some countries in that bloc are poorer than others. The EU is the largest single market in the world.

The USA is a union of states. Some, like California are quite wealthy. Others like Atlanta, aren't as wealthy.

Both of these trading blocs are extremely wealthy despite having poorer areas.

The UK has lower unemployment than poorest areas of the EU and UK but that doesn't mean the UK can isolate itself from these trading blocs.

It is ridiculous to state the UK can do without the largest trading bloc in the world because some of those areas, Greece ect, have high unemployment.

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:01AM

dasdog wrote: »

the UK are willing to pay billions to access the common market.

lol thats what they have been doing for decades anyway. As Albert Reynolds (who came home from euro meetings with pockets full of dosh ) played to our advantage.

tomwaterford · 12-10-2016 12:04AM

maryishere wrote: »

No. Successful economies do not have high unemployment like Spain and Greece.

Now care to answer the questions?

I've not said successful economies :rolleyes:

Capatilism....you do understand the difference??

steddyeddy · 12-10-2016 12:05AM

maryishere wrote: »

No. Successful economies do not have high unemployment like Spain and Greece.

Now care to answer the questions?

The USA has areas of high unemployment. NI, in the UK has high unemployment. What's your question exactly?

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:15AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It is ridiculous to state the UK can do without the largest trading bloc in the world because some of those areas, Greece ect, have high unemployment.

I never said it can do without the largest trading bloc in the world. It was exporting and importing from those countries before the EU and should continue to do so, if handled correctly. The debt crises in the Pigs countries and the high unemployment in Spain, Greece etc show those countries economies are not working and are not sustainable.

tomwaterford wrote: »

I've not said successful economies :rolleyes:

Capatilism....you do understand the difference??

Of course I understand the difference, but if you have to ask "Is moderate to high unemployment not the cornerstone of capitalism??" then you do not understand that Capitalists make the most money when consumers have the means to purchase goods and services.

dasdog · 12-10-2016 12:15AM

maryishere wrote: »

lol thats what they have been doing for decades anyway. As Albert Reynolds (who came home from euro meetings with pockets full of dosh ) played to our advantage.

If they don't they lose access to markets they have had for decades. It is probably a good move for all parties if it becomes a reality. I don't see what Albert Reynolds Chamberlaine moment has to do with the situation.

tomwaterford · 12-10-2016 12:21AM

maryishere wrote: »

I never said it can do without the largest trading bloc in the world. It was exporting and importing from those countries before the EU and should continue to do so, if handled correctly. The debt crises in the Pigs countries and the high unemployment in Spain, Greece etc show those countries economies are not working and are not sustainable.

Of course I understand the difference, but if you have to ask "Is moderate to high unemployment not the cornerstone of capitalism??" then you do not understand that Capitalists make the most money when consumers have the means to purchase goods and services.

Capitalists make the most money on the profit of selling there goods/services and exploitation of labour

IE in times of famine etc selling food as it low in supply and high in demand....with little regard for others

Economies is the supply and distribution of money between different groups essentially

And then you have the batshte crazy economicstuff of the UK (admittedly us morrso)
belief in trickle down
Like the orpean in a Charles dicken's novel....the poor people do be like....plz Mr Rich can I have some more (money in this case)

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:24AM

Access is a two way thing. The British should not have to pay billions to Merkel to sell UK goods there, unless the Merkel pays billions to the UK so she can sell her bmw's in the UK.

Free trade between Mexico and USA for example means goods can go both ways, afaik.

The EC is rotten, for example in the way they treated our banks / bailout.

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:27AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Capitalists make the most money on the profit of selling there goods/services and exploitation of labour

Capitalists like Henry Ford ( whose family came from Cork ) insisted on paying his employees a fair and good wage, so they could afford to buy his cars and other services from others.

Junkyard Tom · 12-10-2016 12:32AM

maryishere wrote: »

The British should not have to pay billions to Merkel to sell UK goods there, unless the Merkel pays billions to the UK so she can sell her bmw's in the UK.

Why are you singling out Merkel? Britain will be negotiating with the EU trading bloc not the individual states within and certainly not the one person you've named.

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:35AM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Why are you singling out Merkel? Britain will be negotiating with the EU trading bloc ...

The point remains. Access is a two way thing. The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world. The Spanish said they want to trade with the UK even if Merkel does not ( the Spanish do well of of UK tourists and retirees ).

N.B. Special honour and thanks to Merkel for inviting another million migrants in to the EU last winter. We are ok here, we only got 36 of them.;)

Junkyard Tom · 12-10-2016 12:47AM

maryishere wrote: »

N.B. Special honour and thanks to Merkel for inviting another million migrants in to the EU last winter. We are ok here, we only got 36 of them.;)

The dog whistle has been blown folks. Hear its shrill note.

daithijjj · 12-10-2016 12:51AM

Britain has strong cards to play. The German automotive industry will be banging down doors to do a deal with the UK, as will French farmers and wine makers, plus many others.

maryishere · 12-10-2016 12:56AM

And there are plenty of other countries in the world to trade and do business with, many of whom are more go-ahead than those ruled from Brussels, who have been spoilt by Germany and the UK and Holland etc for too long.
See how successful a small place like Singapore has become?

daithi7 · 12-10-2016 01:08AM

maryishere wrote: »

The point remains. Access is a two way thing. The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world. The Spanish said they want to trade with the UK even if Merkel does not ( the Spanish do well of of UK tourists and retirees ). ....

Yes, but access to a market of~460m people is a lot more valuable than access to a market of ~60m people, that's a 7 to 1 ratio......it will cost the UK to access that market as it already costs Norway & Switzerland, etc

daithijjj · 12-10-2016 01:36AM

daithi7 wrote: »

Yes, but access to a market of~460m people is a lot more valuable than access to a market of ~60m people, that's a 7 to 1 ratio......it will cost the UK to access that market as it already costs Norway & Switzerland, etc

But in the UK's case it has been exporting at a far higher rate to countries outside the EU than it has been importing from EU countries.

Even the European Commission has said "over the next ten to 15 years, 90% of world demand will be generated outside Europe. That is why it is a key priority for the EU to tap into this growth potential by opening up market opportunities for European businesses abroad."

Within days of the Brexit result Sajid Javid was in Delhi for talks as an example. A country like India has close ties with the UK (well, certainly closer than most within the EU). Population 1.2 Billion, labour force of over 500m, just one country.

Peregrinus · 12-10-2016 02:55AM

daithijjj wrote: »

But in the UK's case it has been exporting at a far higher rate to countries outside the EU than it has been importing from EU countries.

Even the European Commission has said "over the next ten to 15 years, 90% of world demand will be generated outside Europe. That is why it is a key priority for the EU to tap into this growth potential by opening up market opportunities for European businesses abroad."

Within days of the Brexit result Sajid Javid was in Delhi for talks as an example. A country like India has close ties with the UK (well, certainly closer than most within the EU). Population 1.2 Billion, labour force of over 500m, just one country.

The EU is already India's largest trading partner. About 13% of India's trade with the EU is with the UK so, when you separate out the UK and the EU-27, the EU will still be much the more significant trading partner for India. In fact, the UK is not even India's biggest trading partner among EU member states; it comes third, after Germany and Belgium.

Yes, post-Brexit UK will want a trade deal with India and, yes, India will be interested. But India will be more interested in a trade deal with the EU and - as with the US - negotiations for such a deal have been under way for some years now. So, given its head start and its much greater importance to India, odds are that the EU trade deal will be concluded before any separate UK trade deal.

Zubeneschamali · 12-10-2016 06:39AM

daithijjj wrote: »

But in the UK's case it has been exporting at a far higher rate to countries outside the EU than it has been importing from EU countries.

Do you mean that UK exports to non-EU countries are worth more pounds than UK imports from the rest of the EU?

Let's see:

Non-EU Exports for August 2016 were £12.3 billion. Non-EU Imports for for August 2016 were £22.6 billion. EU Exports for for August 2016 were £11.1 billion. EU Imports for August 2016 were £18.8 billion.

So, you are wrong and it isn't even close, EU imports are worth 50% more than non-EU exports.

GreenFolder2 · 12-10-2016 06:46AM

A lot of nonsense was allowed to go totally unchallenged in the debate leading up to Brexit.

UK Votes to leave EU

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