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Mens Rights Thread

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  • #2702
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,931 ✭✭✭iptba


    LSE to give female academics pay rises to close gap with men

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/lse-give-female-academics-pay-rises-close-gap-men
    I have difficulty imagining this happening in a situation where the genders were reversed i.e. male staff but not female staff would get a pay rise.


  • #2703
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    iptba wrote: »
    I have difficulty imagining this happening in a situation where the genders were reversed i.e. male staff but not female staff would get a pay rise.

    Im surprised that there is a pay gap at all between people of the same experience and length of service. Surely in a big college the payscales are fixed and set by union negotiation rather than individual contracts.

    Is it because the women of similar experience and length of service are in lower roles i.e. not being promoted? If thats the case then surely the solution is to encourage more women to go for promotion? Its pretty demeaning to women to say that they are being paid more due to equality provisions rather than because they are good should get the senior position!


  • #2704
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,931 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    LSE to give female academics pay rises to close gap with men

    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/lse-give-female-academics-pay-rises-close-gap-men

    I have difficulty imagining this happening in a situation where the genders were reversed i.e. male staff but not female staff would get a pay rise.
    Another:
    University of Essex hikes salaries for female professors to eliminate pay gap
    June 2, 2016


    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/university-of-essex-hikes-salaries-for-female-professors-to-eliminate-pay-gap


  • #2705
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    iptba wrote: »
    https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/university-of-essex-hikes-salaries-for-female-professors-to-eliminate-pay-gap

    Taken from the above article:
    King’s College London had the biggest gender pay gap of any large university when all kinds of academic staff are considered, with women paid £10,061 (17.7 per cent) less than men on average.

    The gap reflected the fact that there are fewer women than men in the most highly paid positions – primarily clinical and professorial roles – rather than a difference in salaries for men and women doing equal work, said a spokesman for King’s, who added that it had introduced an institution-wide action plan on equal pay.

    Bold emphasis mine. There's more to this than straight comparison, so I query the rationale behind this particular move if the case about promotions rather than pay scales. Not to mention that academia has all sorts of notions about works published & kudos attributed for it and the institution that comes into play as well as what qualifications and experience that you hold.


  • #2706
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,931 ✭✭✭iptba


    Doesn't look like the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission ["Protecting & promoting human rights & equality"] is taking a very equal stance at the ploughing Championships
    https://twitter.com/_IHREC

    People are being asked to fill in:
    "What should the State to to make Ireland a better country for women and girls"


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  • #2707
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    iptba wrote: »
    Doesn't look like the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission ["Protecting & promoting human rights & equality"] is taking a very equal stance at the ploughing Championships
    https://twitter.com/_IHREC

    People are being asked to fill in:

    what now, this is hilarious , probably a goldmine here :pac:

    CszA_SnWYAA8AJA.jpg:small

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #2708
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    silverharp wrote: »
    what now, this is hilarious , probably a goldmine here :pac:

    CszA_SnWYAA8AJA.jpg:small

    Yeah I mean the GAA obviously forced people not to go to the camogie final. Funnily enough there were a huge number of women at the mens football final on Sunday. Must have been the patriarch forcing them to go.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #2709
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    There was actually 20,000 at the camogie final not 2000.

    My sister plays to a high level so I've been at more camogie matches than I can remember. The standard is obviously no where near men's senior hurling but you still see some decent players.

    The thing is though you can't force people to watch women's sport. Nature dictates that men are generally better athletes than women, it wasn't some decision made at a Patriarchy Board meeting.


  • #2710
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Nature dictates that men are generally better athletes than women

    I'm not so sure. In tennis, for example the womens' matches are almost as popular (and in some instances, more popular) than the mens.

    But I agree with your other point. People are free to watch, or not watch, any sport they like. If women's field sports are not popular amongst both men and women, this is not evidence of a human rights issue so much as a failure to appeal on the part of the sport.


  • #2711
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Tennis is a notable example popularity wise but I do think a top class male would beat a top class female. There are few events where both sexes can perform at a similar level unfortunately.


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  • #2712
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,603 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Over 3 sets or 5?
    With regular or extra duty felt?

    The mens' and womens' games in tennis have some differences. The most notable being that men play over 5 sets in the majors. Given that women tend to play flatter, whilst men have to avoid doing so, I'd suspect most of the top ranked male players would more than likely annihilate most of the top ranked female players.

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  • #2713
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Over 3 sets or 5?
    With regular or extra duty felt?

    The mens' and womens' games in tennis have some differences. The most notable being that men play over 5 sets in the majors. Given that women tend to play flatter, whilst men have to avoid doing so, I'd suspect most of the top ranked male players would more than likely annihilate most of the top ranked female players.

    its been tested around the 200's ranked male player can beat the top female player , one of the Williams sisters.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #2714
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Tennis is a notable example popularity wise but I do think a top class male would beat a top class female. There are few events where both sexes can perform at a similar level unfortunately.
    Sleepy wrote: »
    Over 3 sets or 5?
    With regular or extra duty felt?

    The mens' and womens' games in tennis have some differences. The most notable being that men play over 5 sets in the majors. Given that women tend to play flatter, whilst men have to avoid doing so, I'd suspect most of the top ranked male players would more than likely annihilate most of the top ranked female players.
    No question there. Take either of the Williams sisters/Graf/Seles/Navratilova/Capriati/Pierce/Davenport, and even on their best day in their prime, there is not a chance they would beat Nadal, Fed, Djokovic, Murray, Agassi, Sampras etc. Even if they had an average day.

    That is also leaving the big servers out of it. Even the likes of Fed struggled with Roddick when he was bashing the serves between 140-155mph. Agassi, one of the best returners ever, struggled with Philippoussis and Ivanesevic* who regularly hit them between 130-150mph. Over five sets it would simply be too much on the groundstrokes side of things.

    They are all at the top of their respective games, but biology comes into play (even more so) at that level.
    The thing is though you can't force people to watch women's sport. Nature dictates that men are generally better athletes than women, it wasn't some decision made at a Patriarchy Board meeting.
    In the Olympics, some events in mens are just as popular with punters in the ladies (Swimming, gymnastics) so if some sports are not popular it is really down to the preferences of the audience.

    *It was really where he was able to place them (being left handed helped) as opposed to straight up brute force. Although he had plenty of that too.


  • #2715
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    silverharp wrote: »
    its been tested around the 200's ranked male player can beat the top female player , one of the Williams sisters.

    From Wikipedia:
    1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters[edit]
    Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[29] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams, aged 17 and 16 respectively, had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager."[30][31] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[32] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two beers. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[33] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance." He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun."[34] Braasch said the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier, and that men put spin on the ball that the women can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.

    Granted, they were quite young when the match took place! But a pro tennis player smoking cigs and boozing? You wouldn't get that carry on these days, not even in the satellite tournaments!


  • #2716
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    mzungu wrote: »
    From Wikipedia:


    Granted, they were quite young when the match took place! But a pro tennis players smoking cigs and boozing? You wouldn't get that carry on these days, not even in the satellite tournaments!

    I hadnt heard the "350" number but it sounds reasonable, he wasnt exactly at his peak was he ? lol.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #2717
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    silverharp wrote: »
    I hadnt heard the "350" number but it sounds reasonable, he wasnt exactly at his peak was he ? lol.

    He always reminded me of a 'man out of his era' archetype. His heyday was around the early to mid 90s (made it to 38 in the world) when Sampras was beginning to dominate and a resurgent Agassi was not too far behind. The guy used to even smoke cigarettes at changeovers during matches. He would have been more suited to the game that existed between the 1920s and 1970s. They used to get up to all kinds of mischief back in those days. A few cigarettes (comparatively speaking) could be considered part of a healthy diet compared to what players got up to back then.
    As described in The Romance of Wimbledon, a book by John Olliff, The Daily Telegraph’s tennis correspondent, the ‘21 quarterfinal between Zenzo Shimidzu of Japan and Randolf Lycett of Australia was a drunken fiasco. Played on a blisteringly hot day, the match was deadlocked at a set apiece and 3-3 in the third, when Lycett seemed to suffer sunstroke and had to be revived with gin. Though wobbly, Lycett won the third set, but couldn’t continue without another stimulant — champagne. Apparently, he drank a whole bottle and by the fifth set was staggering and stumbling, falling and crawling around on his hands and knees, searching for his racket. While it’s not surprising that Lycett lost, it may shock some fans to learn that the Aussie wasn’t the last player to quaff champagne on Centre Court. That dubious honor belongs to Jimmy Connors and Ilie Nastase, who split a bottle during a doubles match in the mid-’70s and were seen as jolly good fellows for doing so.
    http://www.insidetennis.com/2009/10/short-history-drugs-tennis/


  • #2718
    Letree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    How about this for a bit of madness. A woman cautioned for domestic violence is now shadow minister for domestic violence for the Labour party. I can't imagine a man cautioned being in the same position.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3806018/Ex-husband-Labour-s-domestic-abuse-Minister-nightmares-attack-divorce.html


  • #2719
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Letree wrote: »
    How about this for a bit of madness. A woman cautioned for domestic violence is now shadow minister for domestic violence for the Labour party. I can't imagine a man cautioned being in the same position.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3806018/Ex-husband-Labour-s-domestic-abuse-Minister-nightmares-attack-divorce.html

    Utterly disgraceful. I'll not comment further as I don't want to drag this thread into political territory.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2720
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Are the UK labour party purposely trying to turn themselves into a laughing stock? Their actions recently make the Gordon Brown era look like a golden age.


  • #2721
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Are the UK labour party purposely trying to turn themselves into a laughing stock? Their actions recently make the Gordon Brown era look like a golden age.

    No idea. Really, really have no idea what's going on there. This seems to be the issue with the left-right spectrum in that the far ends tend to be populated by nutters and loonies of various denominations. From this new-but-old Labour we've had Kerry McCarthy who wants to spend taxpayers' money on eliminating meat, John McDonnell who's praised the IRA, Corbyn try to use the Trident mess to secure a handout for unions, Diane Abbott racially abuse a Scandanavian woman and now this. They've lost my vote at any rate.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #2722
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    ... Diane Abbott racially abuse a Scandanavian woman ...

    When did that one happen?!


  • #2723
    Maguined
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    Lemming wrote: »
    When did that one happen?!

    I just looked up her wikipedia page and it made me chuckle.
    In 1988 Abbott claimed, at a black studies conference in Philadelphia, that "the British invented racism."[55]

    In 1996, Abbott attracted widespread criticism when she claimed that at her local hospital "blonde, blue-eyed Finnish girls" were unsuitable as nurses because they had "never met a black person before".[56] Abbott's apology came as Marc Wadsworth, executive member of the Anti-Racist Alliance, who is himself half Finnish, pointed out that the present Miss Finland, Lola Odusoga, is black, of Nigerian and Finnish descent. "She's a black Finn like me," he said. Abbott's position was supported by fellow Labour MP Bernie Grant: "Bringing someone here from Finland who has never seen a black person before and expecting them to have to have some empathy with black people is nonsense. Scandinavian people don't know black people—they probably don't know how to take their temperature".[57][58]

    On 4 January 2012, Abbott tweeted that: "White people love playing 'divide and rule' We should not play their game", which again led to widespread criticism including accusations of racism.[59] Only after being told by the Labour Party leadership that the comment was unacceptable did she apologise for "any offence caused", claiming that she had not intended to "make generalisations about white people".[60][61] The Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg called her comments a "stupid and crass generalisation". Nadhim Zahawi, Conservative MP, said: "This is racism. If this was a white member of Parliament saying that all black people want to do bad things to us he would have resigned within the hour or been sacked."[62] Members of the public lodged complaints but the Metropolitan Police stated that no investigation would be launched and no charges would be brought against her, saying she "did not commit a criminal offence."[63]

    In January 2012 Abbott suggested that taxi drivers discriminate on racial grounds, tweeting that she was "Dubious of black people claiming they’ve never experienced racism. Ever tried hailing a taxi I always wonder?"[64]


  • #2724
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Maguined wrote: »
    I just looked up her wikipedia page and it made me chuckle.

    If those gems are anything to go by, she is a perfect fit for the dysfunctional monstrosity that is Corbyn's Labour.


  • #2725
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Here's a bit more:

    https://hequal.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/domestic-violence-double-standards-male-mp-was-forced-to-stand-down-when-cautioned-for-assaulting-partner-yet-sarah-champion-receives-support-for-same-crime/

    Utterly disgraceful. She's received support from the "Jeremy Corbyn for Leader" page.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #2726
    deandean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭deandean


    Not sure if this is the right thread - men's rights - but there is a case in the UK at the moment where a well-known man is being re-tried on a rape charge after his first conviction was quashed on appeal.

    ched evans link

    I think it's unfair that the accuser has her name protected and gives evidence from behind a screen, whereas the defendant has his name and photographs splashed over every media there is.


  • #2727
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As far as I'm aware she didn't accuse him of anything. She went to the cops about a lost purse and they decided to charge him on the basis of what she told them, and after his conviction was quashed a new trial was ordered on the basis of new evidence that has emerged.

    I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but the victim wasn't the one to accuse him of rape, the police were. Her identity is also pretty well known, as it was publicized by Evans supporters and family before the original trial. None of which is particularly relevant since she didn't articulate rape. Either way, it looks like a murky and tricky case.

    Hopefully the new trial will make either guilt or innocence clear so that doubt doesn't follow either the guy or the verdict around, as applicable.


  • #2728
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    silverharp wrote: »
    I hadnt heard the "350" number but it sounds reasonable, he wasnt exactly at his peak was he ? lol.

    From being at a few Irish Open golf tournaments I've always been surprised at how many pro golfers are cigarette smokers. I suppose given the nature of golf it's not really going to impact on performance to the same extent as it would in tennis.


  • #2729
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Candie wrote: »
    As far as I'm aware she didn't accuse him of anything. She went to the cops about a lost purse and they decided to charge him on the basis of what she told them, and after his conviction was quashed a new trial was ordered on the basis of new evidence that has emerged.

    I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, but the victim wasn't the one to accuse him of rape, the police were. Her identity is also pretty well known, as it was publicized by Evans supporters and family before the original trial. None of which is particularly relevant since she didn't articulate rape. Either way, it looks like a murky and tricky case.

    Hopefully the new trial will make either guilt or innocence clear so that doubt doesn't follow either the guy or the verdict around, as applicable.

    Even an innocent verdict won't change the perception of most people around this case. This mans life has been completely and thoroughly ruined at this stage. He will forever be guilty regardless of a new verdict, no matter what he does or where he goes this will follow him.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #2730
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,931 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Doesn't look like the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission ["Protecting & promoting human rights & equality"] is taking a very equal stance at the ploughing Championships
    https://twitter.com/_IHREC

    People are being asked to fill in:
    "What should the State to to make Ireland a better country for women and girls"
    Frances Fitzgerald ‏@FitzgeraldFrncs

    #Budget2017 provides for an additional €300,000 for additional recruitment to enable the @_IHREC continue its vital work.

    I wonder was Frances Fitzgerald's feminist/women's activist background a factor in this:
    Prior to her election to the Dáil, Frances served as Chair of the National Women’s Council of Ireland (1988-1992) and Vice President of the European Women’s Lobby. As Chair of the National Women’s Council she initiated and served on the second Commission on Women, chairing the Employment Sub-Committee.

    http://www.francesfitzgerald.ie/p/about-frances.html


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  • #2731
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JRant wrote: »
    Even an innocent verdict won't change the perception of most people around this case. This mans life has been completely and thoroughly ruined at this stage. He will forever be guilty regardless of a new verdict, no matter what he does or where he goes this will follow him.

    Generally, that's the case for most crimes and especially violent and sexual offenders.

    This guy though, he's had clubs courting him regarding resuming his career, his girlfriend - who he cheated on apart from any possible guilt - stayed with him, he has numerous friends and allies supporting him (and vilifying the victim) on social media, and doesn't seem to have suffered too badly in spite of the guilty verdict.

    That's fame though. Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist, has been re-cast as a lovable squeaky-voiced personality, making cameos in movies like The Hangover.


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